Daenerys the cheater v. 2

[eyeheartsansa]

I was just reading the part in ASoS when Dany manipulates the fall of Yunkai. She is a good tactician and was able to win the city with minimal bloodshed.

Yes; I really like how she holds her own with the macho sellswords. I guess all that time riding around with Drogo's crew must have taught her a thing or two on how to banter with men. that sort of thing is pretty imporant.. it sounds like joking around but it sends a subtle message that you don't fuck with her..

[Winter's Knight]

... Gee, and who oh who thought to use wildfire?

Cersei.

Yeah, and now that same city is parked outside her doorstep with a pretty large army.

It still shows that she doesn't just sit back and leave the work to others-the plan,tactics and manipulation were her's.

[eyeheartsansa]

He didn't clean up any messes though, did he? He just replaced Cersei's men with his own and that's it-what other changes did he make that bettered the city or made lives easier.

That in itself is an accomplishment. Tyrion isn't going to order anyone to slaughter any babies, for a start.

Tyrion can't win. Other than [list of things Tyrion does], what else did he do?

Cersei.

Maybe, but Tyrion did all the legwork here.. consulting with the alchemists, training the archers... for all we know Cercei just said, 'I don't know, use wildfire or something.'

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Cersei.

Tyrion was the one who ordered it made and worked out how to incorporate it. Absurd not to give him credit.

It still shows that she doesn't just sit back and leave the work to others-the plan,tactics and manipulation were her's.

And because she failed to do cleanup, that city survived to come after her, where it sits now. So this is a victory, how? I'm also pretty sure that Tyrion did a lot of his own fighting at the Blackwater — he had the plan, the tactics and he was actually in the thick of it.

[eyeheartsansa]

And because she failed to do cleanup, that city survived to come after her, where it sits now. So this is a victory, how?

She is still learning. Do you think she'll make that mistake again, with her newfound fervor for Fire and Blood?

I'm also pretty sure that Tyrion did a lot of his own fighting at the Blackwater — he had the plan, the tactics and he was actually in the thick of it.

Yes.

It's hard to compare and contrast Dany and Tyrion because theyr'e my favorites, I think. I hope they get to work together in some capacity. I'm not sure how this 'three heads of the dragon' is supposed to work.. lots of theories smack of cheesy comic book/superhero fare, but I think it will be more like a war council.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

She is still learning. Do you think she'll make that mistake again, with her newfound fervor for Fire and Blood?

Whatever idiot mistakes may or may not lie in her future, my point was that her Yunkai victory isn't exactly the sterling example of her brilliance that Winter's Knight thinks. And Tyrion was "still learning," too, surely — I don't recall him ever having led a city during a siege before then, let alone the capital city against the navy of the guy who used to be Master of Ships.

[Winter's Knight]

Tyrion was the one who ordered it made and worked out how to incorporate it. Absurd not to give him credit.

Cersei ordered the making. Tyrion worked out a way for soldiers to practice using it as ammo.

He wouldn't have worked out anything if she hadn't thought of it first.

And because she failed to do cleanup, that city survived to come after her, where it sits now. So this is a victory, how? I'm also pretty sure that Tyrion did a lot of his own fighting at the Blackwater — he had the plan, the tactics and he was actually in the thick of it.

Dany did not fight because she is Queen and because she is not trained to fight-just like Joff was not allowed to venture into the thick of battle.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Dany did not fight because she is Queen and because she is not trained to fight-just like Joff was not allowed to venture into the thick of battle.

It also helps that Joffrey's, you know, a coward.

And I still give the wildfire credit and the chain's credit to Tyrion. He was also the queen's brother and the Hand. He had as much of an excuse to hide out as any of them, but he didn't.

[eyeheartsansa]

"Those are brave men. Let's go kill them."

Whatever idiot mistakes may or may not lie in her future, my point was that her Yunkai victory isn't exactly the sterling example of her brilliance that Winter's Knight thinks.

I think it's more about her ability to negotiate with and manipulate sellsword captains than her knack for long-term planning. I don't think anyone would say she's great at long term strategy at this point.

[SeanF]

I think it was because the thread had gone over the limit of 21 pages. The old thread was 22 pages long.

Interesting, but my original post was not meant to highlight the fact that, I think that Tyrion has made some pretty major political blunders during his time in power, yet seems to often get far less criticism for these mistakes than Danerys does for hers. Listing Tyrion's mistakes, I noted:

Overall, Tyrion made some pretty glaring mistakes in King’s Landing that led to his eventual downfall. Saying he failed because he was instantly loathed and persecuted for his dwarfism is inaccurate. When considering Tyrion’s overall political/ leadership abilities, I think it is essential to take his significant failings and weaknesses into account.

Tyrion’s dwarfism and the treatment that this earns him is certainly something that inspires pity on our, the reader’s, part. However, looking critically at his activities in kings landing, people did not hate him “simply for being a dwarf.” (The conclusion that he eventually comes to.) His own mistakes are ultimately responsible for how he was perceived by the smallfolk and most of those around him. His dwarfism may have been a point against him in the minds of many, however, with the right political moves, he could have overcome this. Instead, he committed a number of public mistakes that earned him the distrust and dislike of the people and others around him. His own actions made casting him into the role of the manipulative uncle and master puppeteer all too easy.

I noted this on the earlier thread because I find the dichotomy between reactions to Tyrion vs. reactions to Danerys to be interesting. Danerys rarely escapes criticism for each and every questionable decision she makes, and people often end up actually loathing her for her blunders. Meanwhile, Tyrion’s mistakes are often overlooked. People often attribute his failure in kings landing to a mixture of unfair persecution on account of Tyrion’s dwarfism, betrayal, and the wickedness of his adversaries. However, I think Tyrion made some major mistakes that contributed to him making his own bed that eventually resulted in his downfall.

Should this be considered when people contend that Dany needs Tyrion as an advisor? Or are Tyrion’s errors merely things that would effect him as a public figure, and not harm him as an advisor?

Tyrion did try to feed the Smallfolk of King's Landing, who did indeed hate him as a Lannister and a dwarf. I doubt that there is anything he could have done to overcome those two handicaps. By contrast, the Smallfolk idolised the Tyrells, who had been maintaining a blockade of the City.

Tyrion had no men of his own, apart from the clansmen, and some sell swords, and IMHO, did rather a good job as King's Hand, given the circumstances.

I'd say Tyrion's problems stem mostly from his inability to keep a hold on his tongue. But, so long as he can avoid making lewd comments to Dany, I imagine he'll be a very useful adviser (and one who will encourage her to act as his father would do).

[Winter's Knight]

Tyrion did try to feed the Smallfolk of King's Landing, who did indeed hate him as a Lannister and a dwarf. I doubt that there is anything he could have done to overcome those two handicaps. By contrast, the Smallfolk idolised the Tyrells, who had been maintaining a blockade of the City.

Tyrion had no men of his own, apart from the clansmen, and some sell swords, and IMHO, did rather a good job as King's Hand, given the circumstances.

I'd say Tyrion's problems stem mostly from his inability to keep a hold on his tongue. But, so long as he can avoid making lewd comments to Dany, I imagine he'll be a very useful adviser (and one who will encourage her to act as his father would do).

Not so, he had the goldcloaks on his side as well-Bywater was his man remember?

[1234567]

Tyrion had the Gold Cloaks under Bywater, Sellswords and Clansmen. He could have punished those among them who terrorized or raped the smallfolk (like Stannis did if his men broke laws). They could have made more of an effort to not have feasts like Tyrek's wedding feast when the city is starving. They could have made or arranged shelter for those whose houses they were burning in Flea Bottom instead of just turfing them out etc. He could have either had Janos Slynt put on trial or let rumours be circulated round the city (via sellswords etc) that Janos Slynt was going to betray the city etc. He could have given the Antler Men trials instead of taking Varys at his word and giving well known and possibly very well liked KL citizens hammered in antlers and flinging them to their deaths across the Bay.

The Tyrells won support through a good PR campaign and being victors.

Tyrion did have the odds stacked against him in terms of his background and although he did a lot of things well, he could have handled the PR bit better.

[SeanF]

The Gold Cloaks were notoriously unreliable, though, as Tyrion well knew. They were, in any case, more of a police force, than an army.

WRT PR, I don't doubt the Tyrells were far better at it than the Lannisters. It seems to be a common Lannister trait not to regard the views of the Smallfolk as being of any account.

I would certainly view Tyrion's actions as being politically foolish if he were running for Mayor of King's Landing, but I don't think they were particularly foolish for a commander attempting to defeat a siege.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I think the point of the Tyrells is to show that PR can go a long way, but just because you're "liked," it doesn't necessarily mean that you're "good," and vice versa. Would people like the Tyrells if they knew that they were the ones blocking the food from getting into the city? They love them for bringing carts of produce in, never knowing that it was because of them that they were starving in the first place.

[Mulled Wino]

It also helps that Joffrey's, you know, a coward.

And I still give the wildfire credit and the chain's credit to Tyrion. He was also the queen's brother and the Hand. He had as much of an excuse to hide out as any of them, but he didn't.

I don't see how this is debatable. Cersei came up with an idea. Big deal, Tyrion actually DID everything, including stepping up production.

[Castel]

I think the point of the Tyrells is to show that PR can go a long way, but just because you're "liked," it doesn't necessarily mean that you're "good," and vice versa. Would people like the Tyrells if they knew that they were the ones blocking the food from getting into the city? They love them for bringing carts of produce in, never knowing that it was because of them that they were starving in the first place.

Of course they knew, they just had short memories- or at least when it suited them they did.

I don't see how this is debatable. Cersei came up with an idea. Big deal, Tyrion actually DID everything, including stepping up production.

Not to mention training the soldiers so they didn't just kill each other.

Tyrion had the Gold Cloaks under Bywater, Sellswords and Clansmen. He could have punished those among them who terrorized or raped the smallfolk (like Stannis did if his men broke laws). They could have made more of an effort to not have feasts like Tyrek's wedding feast when the city is starving. They could have made or arranged shelter for those whose houses they were burning in Flea Bottom instead of just turfing them out etc. He could have either had Janos Slynt put on trial or let rumours be circulated round the city (via sellswords etc) that Janos Slynt was going to betray the city etc. He could have given the Antler Men trials instead of taking Varys at his word and giving well known and possibly very well liked KL citizens hammered in antlers and flinging them to their deaths across the Bay.

The clansmen are not like knights, they go where they will, if Tyrion pissed them off, they might have killed him or just left.And Bywater was an honorable man, he didn't have the same...versatility as the clansmen or Bronn. And hell, the stories we get of them killing people were mostly people who cheated them. Imagine how it would look if the Imp was telling people not to celebrate their wedding feast?

[James Arryn]

Yeah, being liked was a huge part of being a successful monarch. Which is why pageantry, display etc. were so important. It's odd how often people perceive it as a sign of weakness or romantic misunderstanding of what it means to rule when it is in fact a sign of the opposite.

I will try and not make this about Renly being the best candidate for King.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Of course they knew, they just had short memories- or at least when it suited them they did.

And if anything, this shows how fickle the smallfolk can be, and kind of puts a damper on the idea that Tyrion "failed" because they didn't love him.

Big deal, Tyrion actually DID everything, including stepping up production.

... Yeah.

[Winter's Knight]

I don't see how this is debatable. Cersei came up with an idea. Big deal, Tyrion actually DID everything, including stepping up production.

Cerse thought of and set them to making it. They discovered old stores and reported them to Tyrion.

Tyrion supervised and thought up a way for soldiers to practice using it.

“And what has my good sister done about this?”

“She is taking steps to restore the king’s peace,” Vylarr assured him. “Lord Slynt has tripled the size of the City Watch, and the queen has put a thousand craftsmen to work on our defenses. The stonemasons are strengthening the walls, carpenters are building scorpions and catapults by the hundred, fletchers are making arrows, the smiths are forging blades, and the Alchemists’ Guild has pledged ten thousand jars of wildfire.

The clansmen are not like knights, they go where they will, if Tyrion pissed them off, they might have killed him or just left.And Bywater was an honorable man, he didn't have the same...versatility as the clansmen or Bronn. And hell, the stories we get of them killing people were mostly people who cheated them. Imagine how it would look if the Imp was telling people not to celebrate their wedding feast?

Then he was a fool for keeping men he couldn't control wasn't he?

[Castel]

Yeah, being liked was a huge part of being a successful monarch. Which is why pageantry, display etc. were so important. It's odd how often people perceive it as a sign of weakness or romantic misunderstanding of what it means to rule when it is in fact a sign of the opposite.

I will try and not make this about Renly being the best candidate for King.

The fact is he was disadvantaged from the start. He was basically a scapegoat because they didn't want to blame the king or queen (this tends to be the case a lot apparently). And lets pretend for a moment Tyrion went out there and showed off what do you think he would get? Laughter. The things that made knights and men like Rhaegar likeable have been completely denied to Tyrion. The talents he does have and use for the people are such that it requires a person to be rational and to be on the inside to see it work and not be trying to find a scapegoat.

Then he was a fool foe keeping men he couldn't control wasn't he?

Uh, no. He was no Lord Tywin with an infinite number of men under his control. And the clansmen could be controlled up to a point, which he did. They were a tool for one scenario and he used them to that effect. I don't think he would have found anyone as loyal. See what happened with Mandon Moore. And like I said, they did a ton of good. But that requires people to be rational.