Daenerys the cheater v. 2

[Winter's Knight]

idk, i kinda exaggerated though. Cersie made em work 24/7 for swords and stuff regardless. Although building a chain is "simple work" so they got pissed off about it. apparently one of em (who wanted to build Tyrion a deamon helm) was so pissed he became an antlerman.

Swords and armour are paid for by the crown. There is no mention made (that I remember) about Tyrion arranging any funds. We know he didn't use royal funds since he kept it secret from both Cersei and Joff.

Which was rather childish btw.

[Queen Cersei I]

Yeah, being liked was a huge part of being a successful monarch. Which is why pageantry, display etc. were so important. It's odd how often people perceive it as a sign of weakness or romantic misunderstanding of what it means to rule when it is in fact a sign of the opposite.

I will try and not make this about Renly being the best candidate for King.

Well, Renly, like Margary Tyrell, knew the importance of appearances and projecting a positive public image. Tyrion expected the people to be grateful, even though they had no way of knowing most of the stuff he did for them was unknown. His being a dwarf was definitely a point against him, but it was something that the right amount of PR could have overcame.

[BigBucket]

Jacelyn Bywater gives other reasons (whether they're accurate or not) besides dwarfism as to why the smallfolk hate Tyrion :

Fair point, it's been a while so I couldn't remember anything concrete like that. Still, I wonder how those things would have been perceived had Tyrion been born a 6ft tall, handsome second son of Tywin Lannister as opposed to The Imp.

[Queen Cersei I]

Anyways, what does this have to do with Dany?

I noted in the last thread that while Dany got a great deal of criticism (and numerous hate threads) for her mistakes, Tyrion's were often overlooked and attributed to him being unfairly persecuted due to his dwarfism.

The idea was not that Tyrion never made a good decision or was a miserable failure or never encountered any form of prejudice based upon his dwarfism. It was simply that the spectacle of numerous Dany hate threads due to her political errors but Tyrion's similar errors never even being mentioned struck me as strange.

As for the idea that Tyrion is a dwarf and therefore entitled to more sympathy than the beautiful Dany, I see some issues with this. Starting with the fact that Danerys beauty can (and has) been just as easily used against her, led her to being sold and exploited. She was more or less sold to a barbarian without choice who, after one pleasant wedding night, brutally fucked her in the most unpleasant manner. She eventually learned to take pleasure in this. However, that does not change the fact that Dany's beauty led her to being sold to the highest bidder, something that Tyrion has never had to deal with.

[James Arryn]

Well, Renly, like Margary Tyrell, knew the importance of appearances and projecting a positive public image. Tyrion expected the people to be grateful, even though they had no way of knowing most of the stuff he did for them was unknown. His being a dwarf was definitely a point against him, but it was something that the right amount of PR could have overcame.

I'm kinda 50/50.

I do think his actions or inaction might have made it hard to overcome if it were overcomable...new word...but I also think it unlikely they ever get past the dwarf thing.

Popular opinion has a way of seizing hold of an idea of the grotesque and cementing around it. I mean, physiognomy wasn't exactly an everyday thing in medieval times, but its always had more of a hold over us than we would like to think, particularly when it comes to extremes.

[eyeheartsansa]

She was more or less sold to a barbarian without choice who, after one pleasant wedding night, brutally fucked her in the most unpleasant manner.

um.. do you have a quote for this? regarding the "brutality..."

[Winter's Knight]

um.. do you have a quote for this? regarding the "brutality..."

...

AGoT

Yet every night, some time before the dawn, Drogo would come to her tent and wake her in the dark, to ride her as relentlessly as he rode his stallion. He always took her from behind, Dothraki fashion, for which Dany was grateful; that way her lord husband could not see the tears that wet her face, and she could use her pillow to muffle her cries of pain. When he was done, he would close his eyes and begin to snore softly and Dany would lie beside him, her body bruised and sore, hurting too much for sleep.

[Euphail]

I have always looked upon Tyrion's actions as logical given the surrounding events.

1) There is little he could do about the food in kings landing. The rose road was closed, and the crown was broke. Cersei had decided to stop paying the crowns debts, and this put the city in a liquidity and confidence crises - so buying food abroad or trading via boat was an impossibility. The one fault I find here was charging a fee to everyone who wanted to enter the city. They should have allowed free passage for traders.

2) The decision for city defenses and wildfire use did come from Cersei, though I hardly attribute any real decision making here beyond, "OMG OMG OMG Y U NO PREPARED CITY!" Tyrion had an actual strategy, and wildfire became a flushed out strategy under his guidence.

3) Tyrions use of sellswords and clansmen had the desired effect. Tyrion new he would be hated from the moment he arrived, if not as a Dwarf, then as a Lannister in a city that remembered the sack, and realizes its current butcher king. What the sellswords and clansmen give him is a healthy aura of fear from those that want him dead. I equate his rule to that of bloodraven's, and his raven's teeth. No one liked bloodraven, but he was a useful hand. (likewise blaming him for the problems of the kingdom is rediculous). It's better to be feared than fear, and Tyrion had it right.

4) Burning of flees bottom was an unfortunate but necessary step. His reasoning was sound, and had it been left there, things would have been worse. Could he have offered housing for those he displaced? Maybe, but how would he pay for it?

If you question whether Tyrion was a success in his role as hand, replace Tyrion with anyone who would have enabled Cersei's rule. Kings Landing would be gone. Wildfire would not have gotten over the walls, as soldier fumbled and burned all their own soldiers. The sorties that were led out under Tyrions command (or with him leading) would not have disuaded or killed any enemy soldiers. The chain that held enemy ships in place preventing manovering would have been free, and unburned as the entire strategy for their destruction came from Tyrion. Stannis would have been aware of Tyrells and Tywins approach because his scouts and advance forces would not have been killed by the clansmen in the forests (something they were particularly skilled at).

Furthermore, his restructuring of the small council (and city watch) likely prevented further problems. If the city watch commander had not been replaced, do you honestly think the city gates would have stayed closed at the approaching force? How long until he opened them? How much infighting and personal scheming would have advanced without an actual show of force by the councils leading member? I personally think that varys and littlefinger had to take a step back from their games once they realized Tyrion knew how to play too.

Edit: small restructure

[LuisDantas]

Without the chain, there wouldn't be a King's Landing.

But I seem to remember him tackling corruption and working to restore some sort of order. Food was scarce but there wasn't much he could do there, with Renly blocking the roads in, except to mitigate the worst of it — like trying to stop Joffrey from shooting people during a bread riot.

And even there he did his best to help, as noted midway towards his third chapter in ACOK (Chapter 15, between the convocation for forging the chain and the visit to Chataya's):

"He had done all he could to feed the hungry city - he'd set several hundred carpenters to building fishing boats in place of catapults, opened the kingswood to any hunter who dared to cross the river, even sent gold cloaks foraging to the west and south - yet he saw accusing eyes everywhere he rode."

[Castel]

And yet, he is liked when he tries: his clansmen cheer him, the men he leads into battle cheer him, Penny likes him, the men a the NW seem to like him just fine.

ETA: a ton of good? Like helping him torture an old man, kill people and the like?

More like destroying Stannis' scouts which probably made it easier for the Lannisters and Tyrells to sucker punch him.

Only to the degree with which they can personally experience him.

You can't rule a city of thousands based on personal interaction.

This is the problem, it's easy to see Cersei riding by and love her. Tyrion... for Tyrion it's near impossible. Most smallfolk base their opinions on rumor and gut feeling, and their impression of Tyrion would not be good.

I'm more concerned with his actions towards nobles, and there he did give them ammunition, more than necessary (especially about Alayaya Jesus) but I'm not sure it would have made a difference in the long run.

[Gingerly Grumkin]

Alayaya was Tyrion's downfall. The one genuine nice thing Tyrion did in the story was care for her, when he didn't have to. He noticed the results of kindness and started acting like a prick to save what remains of his life (that singer who knew about Shae) In ADWD Tyrion behaves like a monster because he convince's himself that he is a monster, but eventually he softens up again to Penny.

But comparing Dany and Tyrion is silly. There too different. Tyrion is a "hand" and a Lord. Dany is a queen and conqueror.

[Queen Cersei I]

This comparison, while fascinating (non-sarcastic) has one flaw in it, which someone else might have pointed out: appearance. One thing we DO know about Westerosi culture -- hell, EVERY culture -- is that people are first based on appearance, whether you're a noble or commoner. Nobles get shit all the time from other nobles: all the endless jokes at Lady Lollys' expense, notably for her appearance/obesity, not just her mental disability (I assume she's retarded).

Yes, Tyrion himself mocks Lolys rather mercilessly and unnecessarily, both before and after her brutal gang rape.

This comparison, while fascinating (non-sarcastic) has one flaw in it, which someone else might have pointed out: appearance. One thing we DO know about Westerosi culture -- hell, EVERY culture -- is that people are first based on appearance, whether you're a noble or commoner. Nobles get shit all the time from other nobles: all the endless jokes at Lady Lollys' expense, notably for her appearance/obesity, not just her mental disability (I assume she's retarded). Even Jon Snow, who is often praised as a paragon of decency and whatnot, reveals a little of this bias when he first meets Ygritte: "at court her face would be nothing more than common".

I think there’s a world of moral difference between commenting that the girl one’s been sleeping with would not be considered a conventional beauty among narrow minded courtiers; and unnecessarily mocking a mentally challenged woman after her vicious gang rape simply because she is chubby and undesirable.

There’s a world of difference between these two things, morally. But perhaps that’s just me. What is so disturbing about Lolys is that Tyrion refuses to see her as a human being worthy of consideration or compassion simply because he does not desire her sexually, even after she’s been horribly violated.

Tyrion was incredibly lucky to be born in one of the Great Houses, esp. the richest one, but his birth also "shamed" that House because he had dwarfism and was also "hideously ugly". He has an oversized head, he has heterochromia with one green eye and one black eye, and "lank" hair that is platinum white, not so much blonde. Apparently his facial features are quite ugly, and after the BBB he lacks 3/4 of a nose.

Dany, on the other hand, is [at the beginning] one of the last two scions of the former royal house. That's pretty lucky in and of itself. It's unlucky that they're orphans, and that stress to regain the Iron Throne exacerbates Viserys' propensity to madness. However, Dany is described hundreds of times as being "the most beautiful woman in the world" (rumor has a way of amplifying things, to be sure). Now our imaginations can invent what we see as beautiful, but I've seen fan art done for Dany, esp. Roman's famous Targaryen portraits. In his, at least, her belly is exposed, showing off her tiny waist, her platinum blonde hair is cascading down her back, and she has a fierce, determined look in her purple eyes -- a color that is non-existent in the real world. The closest one can get is dark blue.

I’m not sure how Danerys beauty makes her less deserving of sympathy than Tyrion and his ugliness. Danerys may not have to deal with gorgeous members of the opposite sex “tragically” rejecting her as Tyrion does, but her beauty and lack of power put her in the perfect position to be exploited. Beauty can be as much of a liability as ugliness. Danerys is sold to a barbarian at age 13 who uses her sexually. That she comes to enjoy it does not mitigate the disturbing nature of the situation or the way Dany was sold and exploited.

Ok, so why did I go on about Tyrion and Dany's appearance and background? Because those are traits and environments that they were born with/into, things they had no control over whatsoever. I think the only way one could compare the two is by basing discussion purely on actions that these two have done, by themselves.

The thing is, where do we start? Do we start with Dany's admission into the Dothraki tribe? It's a tempting place, since we know almost nothing of her time before and the years she spent with Viserys, flitting from one free city to another. It's harder with Tyrion. Most people think that we should start when he became Hand in his father's stead for a short time, but he did a lot before that. In fact, a whole book full of stuff.

We are told that Danerys spent her early years with her brother, and it is made utterly clear that he frequently hit and sometimes beat her savagely when she “woke the dragon.” She lived her life lonely, uprooted, and with her only human contact an abusive person.

Tyrion’s “miserable” childhood is returned to again and again, and earns him a great deal of pity. (His tragic lack of love from his father, for instance, is conveniently noted as he tortures and terrorizes and threatens to rape a defenseless sex slave for the unforgivable crime of not being attracted to him.) However, aside from a cold father and sister, Tyrion had a very fortunate life—son of the most powerful great families in the realm; lives in a castle with a father whom, for all Tyrion’s complaints about the injustice of the treatment he receives, provides for all of Tyrion’s wants and needs and allows him to live a life of luxury. Tyrion had stability, a great house and all of the material comforts, some kindly uncles whom he mentions at an earlier time, and at least one loving and supportive and genuinely kind family member. (Jaime.)

In contrast, Dany moves around her entire childhood, never having a permanent home, being told by her paranoid brother that they are being hunted and that the usurpers hired knives are never far behind. She lives the life of a beggar. And unlike Tyrion, she does not have a single totally loving and supportive and kind figure in her life. Her one family member is an extremely bitter man of questionable sanity who regularly beats her.

He slapped Joffrey out of being a little shit for enough time to get to the Starks and apologize for not being there when they were grieving, he left to see the Wall with Jon, on the way earning a friendship. At the Wall he treated the men with respect, (except Thorne) and took note at Mormont's need for more men. He was captured and held in a Sky Cell, and his action there was simply to walk into a tavern and be falsely accused and seized. His action at the Eyrie was to bet his life on Bronn willing to fight for him in return for advancement & dough. He has proved to be brave in battles.

Certainly, Tyrion has his admirable qualities and has suffered many setbacks, some of them utterly unfair and distressing. However, what that has to do with him being guilty of making some major political blunders, I’m honestly not sure.

People rarely suggest that Danerys difficult past justifies any of the political mistakes she is making in the present.

Tyrion’s difficulties may make him sympathetic, but that does not change what he’s done. A mistake does not become a mistake due because the person who committed it has done good deeds in the past and suffered greatly.

[James Arryn]

I'd argue point by point, except with the way the website's bobbing up and down I feel it likely to be a wasted effort. Well, a more wasted effort.

I mean, Lolly? Was this a conversation about moral guilt, or cause and effect?

But anyways, I'll focus on what I think is your thesis statement:

Certainly, Tyrion has his admirable qualities and has suffered many setbacks, some of them utterly unfair and distressing. However, what that has to do with him being guilty of making some major political blunders, I’m honestly not sure.

People rarely suggest that Danerys difficult past justifies any of the political mistakes she is making in the present.

People suggest it all the time.

Hell, she suggests it every 3rd page or so herself.

"I'm just a young girl ignorant in the ways of war..."

Edit: doing this a chunk at a time to even get this in for sure.

Which imo is clearly meant to be both ironic and contextual...iow:

1) Wow, she IS just a young girl, and yet look at what she's doing.

2) "...."......."........................"....................."....................."...endured.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

People suggest it all the time.

Yes they do. "Well she never had any formal education" or "Her only example was a brutal, crazy brother" or "She spent her life running from Robert's assassins (who weren't really there), when was she supposed to learn how to rule." Anyway, the problem isn't really that her upbringing means that she doesn't know how to govern. It's that she doesn't know that she doesn't know how to govern.

[James Arryn]

Obviously this is just my opinion, but to me is seems the far and away number one complaint about Dany is that she's gotten boring.

[Winter's Knight]

Yes they do. "Well she never had any formal education" or "Her only example was a brutal, crazy brother" or "She spent her life running from Robert's assassins (who weren't really there), when was she supposed to learn how to rule." Anyway, the problem isn't really that her upbringing means that she doesn't know how to govern. It's that she doesn't know that she doesn't know how to govern.

I'm just curious-what would you have her do?

[James Arryn]

I'm just curious-what would you have her do?

Stepping in for Apple for a second, my own personal belief is that the number one reason Dany is making poor decisions is because, plot wise, she kinda has to remain static for a long time while the other plots develop. I'm probably wrong, as I've never seen it discussed since I got here, but I think this is the crux of the knot...how to disentangle her from the constructs he'd invented to keep her somewhere until the other threads could be brought into place, and to do so without making her a complete failure or hypocrite.

So I don't actually, personally, attribute much of anything negative to Dany, I just am bored to tears with running in place whenever I get to her chapters. Especially running in place surrounded by a mostly gaudy yet uninteresting cast of characters.

So yeah, there are some questionable decisions, and more, there are decisions which were probably valid in one way or another but didn't work out...but I truthfully almost want to treat her story line for the past couple books like something that will all go away when she steps out of the shower.

And that's not a sex thing. Because, among other issues, she'll be stepping out of the shower with at least 1 gigantic dragon.

She used to be one of my favorite characters. And she hasn't done anything I really hate. She's just increasingly done nothing I find interesting, and that's GRRM's problem, not hers.

[PatrickStormborn]

Yes they do. "Well she never had any formal education" or "Her only example was a brutal, crazy brother" or "She spent her life running from Robert's assassins (who weren't really there), when was she supposed to learn how to rule." Anyway, the problem isn't really that her upbringing means that she doesn't know how to govern. It's that she doesn't know that she doesn't know how to govern.

It really is not relevant to Dany's character development that Robert did not actually hire assassins -- she still believed he did, and therefore believed that she was in serious danger.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Stepping in for Apple for a second, my own personal belief is that the number one reason Dany is making poor decisions is because, plot wise, she kinda has to remain static for a long time while the other plots develop. I'm probably wrong, as I've never seen it discussed since I got here, but I think this is the crux of the knot...how to disentangle her from the constructs he'd invented to keep her somewhere until the other threads could be brought into place, and to do so without making her a complete failure or hypocrite.

So I don't actually, personally, attribute much of anything negative to Dany, I just am bored to tears with running in place whenever I get to her chapters. Especially running in place surrounded by a mostly gaudy yet uninteresting cast of characters.

So yeah, there are some questionable decisions, and more, there are decisions which were probably valid in one way or another but didn't work out...but I truthfully almost want to treat her story line for the past couple books like something that will all go away when she steps out of the shower.

And that's not a sex thing. Because, among other issues, she'll be stepping out of the shower with at least 1 gigantic dragon.

She used to be one of my favorite characters. And she hasn't done anything I really hate. She's just increasingly done nothing I find interesting, and that's GRRM's problem, not hers.

:agree: Very well put.

I really liked Dany in AGOT, and when she hatched the dragons I thought "Aha! Some barbequed Lannister is on the menu!" Unfortunately, since then her story has been mostly on hold. It doesn't help that I don't like the people and cultures she encounters, it's like they belong in a completely different book, one written by an opium-smoking cousin of Robert E. Howard. So the character of Dany strikes me as wasted potential -- I mean, the girl is the only nuclear power in the world, and but her character is not allowed to use the leverage that gives her. I'm afraid that all those people converging on Meereen are going to take that particular power from her, i.e., the thing that makes her at all interesting and important to the story, and if so I will be really annoyed.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I'm just curious-what would you have her do?

Admit that she doesn't know everything, and learn to take advice. None of the bratty, "I'm the blood of the dragon, I don't need lessons" nonsense that makes me want to smack her with a newspaper. Learn how to better judge character, so she's not spilling trade secrets over honeyed lamb with the goddamn Harpy. Learn that she can't please everyone, that she can't save everyone, and that she needs to prioritize. Clean up the messes she makes (Astapor) before making new ones (Meereen). Take responsibility for the dragons she unleashed, which means taking the time and developing the maturity to train them properly instead of locking them up when they become a nuisance. Accept what her family was and what they did and why her father was deposed, instead of dodging it at every opportunity. Realize that waging a guerilla war in Meereen, especially through the use of torture, is a fool's errand. Make sure people (individual people, not a group) are guilty of what she thinks they're guilty of before crucifying them. Become more self-aware so she doesn't hand out hypocritical decisions without realizing they're hypocritical. Think things through before doing them and understand that everything has a consequence.

If I could sum up her biggest problem, it's this: She doesn't know how much she doesn't know, and she's not curious enough to really learn.

This scene perfectly sums up Dany in ADWD (paraphrased):

Dany: We need ships to face the blockade.

Groleo: We don't have any ships.

Dany: You're the admiral, build me some ships.

Groleo: They destroyed all the timber close by.

Dany: Well ride further then.

Groleo: I'm not a shipwright. I was supposed to bring you back to Pentos, and instead you destroyed my ship for its wood.

Dany: But you must do something!

Groleo: Their ships will burn, unleash the dragons.

Dany: ... No. Go pray for a storm.

Groleo: No good sailor will pray for a storm.

Dany: I'm tired of hearing what you will not do. Go.

She doesn't know that admirals don't build ships. She doesn't have a reason for not unleashing the dragons other than, she can't really control them (but she's going to conquer Westeros with them?). She destroyed what ships she did have but can't understand why a guy who isn't a shipwright and has no wood can't build some more. She thinks this guy might be one of her betrayers just because he can't summon a ship out of mid-air. She shoots down his only suggestion (dragons) and sends him off like he's just said he doesn't want to do it, not because he can't do it.

What about that suggests that she's a reasonable person with a firm grasp of what she's doing?

ETA: And James Arryn and Sand Snake have points, too. Never has someone with so many plot gifts done so little. But yes, that's on Martin.