Does Cersei truly love her children, Jaime, anyone?

[bloodymime]

She has a very funny way of showing her love, if that's what it is. Look at the terrible way in which she treats poor Tommen at Tywin's funeral, when the kid is upset at the sight of the rotting corpse. Jaime takes the boy outside and is dealing with him gently, then Cersei arrives and is absolutely cruel to Tommen because he'd become upset in public. There was no reason for that at all, and it was a really vicious side of Cersei, certainly not the image of a loving mother. I have the impression that Cersei's love is mostly conditional, one conditon being that you don't do something that she sees as 'shaming' her in public.

I am not sure that Cersei ever understands the selflessness aspect of true love. There always seems to be so much "ME" in her love for her children, for Jaime, for her father, that you wonder whether she could ever actually love another person for himself/ herself in their own right.

It's not really a surprise though for Cersei to care so much about image and that fear of being laughed at. Tyrion may be their father's son but Cersei is the one that wants most to be like him. Lannister love is ****** up starting with Tywin and rotting its way down to his children.

[Evamitchelle]

I agree with you, but Cersei could've cared less about her father dying - Queen of Thorns - "Lets leave the queen to her 'grief.'.

The walk of shame is tricky because whenever Cersei is vulnerable is when she wants comfort and sees the faces she loves, but when she is in command with no fear she seems to toss everyone aside. Personally, I believe she was relieved Tywin died because now she was totally in control for the first time ever. She claims to love Jaime whenever she needs Jaime to do something for her, but as her power grows in AFFC she belittles him more and more and eventually pushes him completely away. Until she is in trouble again and now she is all lovey dovey with him again. Cersei d0esnt know what love is IMO. She wants love on her own terms. You are right though, I cannot judge her in the first three books because she wasn't a POV. But it seems like the only difference between Tommen and Joffrey is that she couldn't control Joffrey but she can control Tommen.

I think Tywin's death hit her hard, but not really because she loved him all that much but rather because it showed her just how vulnerable Tommen and herself really were. Tywin was such a terrible father that none of his kids really grieved for him. Jaime's the one that comes the closest, but it's fueled by a sense of guilt more than love. It's made more obvious at the end of the book when Genna tells him that she's sorry for his loss and he thinks of his hand before he thinks of his dad. Cersei didn't really grieve for him either, but his death made her realize that if Tywin Lannister can die in his own privy, then Tommen really doesn't have much chance to make it either.

[BabyMeraxes]

Cersei certainly loves Cersei. Does that count? I think she thinks she loves her children. She certainly loved Jamie through the first three books, probably more than her kids. I attribute a lot of her ACoK freakouts to the stress of Jamie's imprisonment. I'd also argue that she loved the idea of Tywin, but again, she loved it insofar as she felt she was the second-coming of Tywin's fear-based, awe-inspiring leadership. At the end of the day, it's clear that Cersei puts herself before anyone else. If she realizes that or not, well, that's another question.

[Winter's Knight]

Cersei certainly loves Cersei. Does that count? I think she thinks she loves her children. She certainly loved Jamie through the first three books, probably more than her kids. I attribute a lot of her ACoK freakouts to the stress of Jamie's imprisonment. I'd also argue that she loved the idea of Tywin, but again, she loved it insofar as she felt she was the second-coming of Tywin's fear-based, awe-inspiring leadership. At the end of the day, it's clear that Cersei puts herself before anyone else. If she realizes that or not, well, that's another question.

Cersei does put her children before herself-I would hope that the WoS proved that much at least.

[BabyMeraxes]

Cersei does put her children before herself-I would hope that the WoS proved that much at least.

I'm interested to see how much Cersei takes from that WoS. I think there's a pretty good chance she'll revert back into that stank monster we've all grown to admire, especially if she wins that trial by combat.

[Winter's Knight]

I'm interested to see how much Cersei takes from that WoS. I think there's a pretty good chance she'll revert back into that stank monster we've all grown to admire, especially if she wins that trial by combat.

And what is she supposed to take away from the WoS?

[BabyMeraxes]

Before we contine, WoS is short for Walk of Shame right?

[Winter's Knight]

Before we contine, WoS is short for Walk of Shame right?

Yes, indeed.

[Kittykatknits]

Before we contine, WoS is short for Walk of Shame right?

Yes.

[Independent George]

Ironically, I think a lot of people here are making the exact same mistake Cersei does. Because her parenting does not fit how readers believe she should act, they jump to the conclusion that she does not actually love her children.

Yes, she loves her kids. She's really bad at loving them, but that does not mean that the love does not exist.

[AngrySoviet]

What I don't understand is why she has so much affection for Joffrey and she mourns his death. Of course it's normal to be depressed if your son kicks the bucket. But why did she love him so fiercely? He was a monstrous, psycopathic, cowardly, idiotic, ineffectual, paranoid, merciless, and inept ruler. Yet she does not seem to find many faults with him.

On the other hand, Tommen, who is a good, well-behaved boy, is treated with contempt and she constantly threatens him. It really angered me after Tommen runs out of Tywin's funeral, and she gets all mad saying "Joffrey would NEVER have done something like that." Correct, Joffrey probably would have everyone in the sept executed to keep Lord Tywin company, then make some stupid joke about it.

[Independent George]

What I don't understand is why she has so much affection for Joffrey and she mourns his death. Of course it's normal to be depressed if your son kicks the bucket. But why did she love him so fiercely? He was a monstrous, psycopathic, cowardly, idiotic, ineffectual, paranoid, merciless, and inept ruler. Yet she does not seem to find many faults with him.

That's a much more interesting question to me. Is Cersei truly blind to what Joffrey is, or is she consciously denying it? Tyrion, Kevan, and Jaime definitely saw the truth, and Tywin seemed to grasp part of it (he thought Joffrey could still learn and be re-made). But did Cersei understand? Or is she as much a sociopath as Joffrey, and completely incapable of making a moral judgement distinct from deciding whether an action might eventually harm her?

[Winter's Knight]

What I don't understand is why she has so much affection for Joffrey and she mourns his death. Of course it's normal to be depressed if your son kicks the bucket. But why did she love him so fiercely? He was a monstrous, psycopathic, cowardly, idiotic, ineffectual, paranoid, merciless, and inept ruler. Yet she does not seem to find many faults with him.

On the other hand, Tommen, who is a good, well-behaved boy, is treated with contempt and she constantly threatens him. It really angered me after Tommen runs out of Tywin's funeral, and she gets all mad saying "Joffrey would NEVER have done something like that." Correct, Joffrey probably would have everyone in the sept executed to keep Lord Tywin company, then make some stupid joke about it.

Joffery was her firstborn and for quite some time, he and Jaime were her only solace in KL. He was proud, rigid and inspired fear-she believed as Tywin did, that it is better to be feared than laughed at.

In this context, it is difficult to take seriously, an adorable boy-king like Tommen when you have children his age squiring or taking a hand in ruling like Bran.

In times of war, the sight of one's sovereign being sick at his grandfather's funeral could not have been an inspiring sight.

Add to this, the fact that Cersei is under a lot of stress and her lashing out is understsndable

[AngrySoviet]

Joffery was her firstborn and for quite some time, he and Jaime were her only solace in KL. He was proud, rigid and inspired fear-she believed as Tywin did, that it is better to be feared than laughed at.

In this context, it is difficult to take seriously, an adorable boy-king like Tommen when you have children his age squiring or taking a hand in ruling like Bran.

In times of war, the sight of one's sovereign being sick at his grandfather's funeral could not have been an inspiring sight.

Add to this, the fact that Cersei is under a lot of stress and her lashing out is understsndable

I can see why she would admire Joffrey for being kind of like Tywin. However, I think that Joffrey has all of Tywin's ruthlessness and capacity for violence with none of his intelligence or ability to manipulate. Also, Joffrey is clearly evil. Tywin, for all his atrocities, can be regarded as amoral, as he does not puposefully do evil; he just does whatever is required to achieve his mission, even if that means murdering innocents.

[Winter's Knight]

I can see why she would admire Joffrey for being kind of like Tywin. However, I think that Joffrey has all of Tywin's ruthlessness and capacity for violence with none of his intelligence or ability to manipulate. Also, Joffrey is clearly evil. Tywin, for all his atrocities, can be regarded as amoral, as he does not puposefully do evil; he just does whatever is required to achieve his mission, even if that means murdering innocents.

I'll let Tagore speak for me:

Say of him what you please, but I know my child's failings.

I do not love him because he is good, but because he is my little child.

[Fragile Bird]

Just for fun, I looked up a famous quotation from the Bible (must be rubbing off from my 7 deadly sins thread, lol) from the New Living (ie modern) translation of 1 Corinthians 13: 4-8.

Quote

"Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. . . .love will last forever."

That's a rather high, idealized standard to live up to, but IMHO Cersei pretty well fails.

[Winter's Knight]

Just for fun, I looked up a famous quotation from the Bible (must be rubbing off from my 7 deadly sins thread, lol) from the New Living (ie modern) translation of 1 Corinthians 13: 4-8.

Quote

"Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud or rude. It does not demand its own way. It is not irritable, and it keeps no record of being wronged. It does not rejoice about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance. . . .love will last forever."

That's a rather high, idealized standard to live up to, but IMHO Cersei pretty well fails.

I think most of us pretty well fail that-it is descriptive IMNSHO of a perfect love and such a thing cannot come from an imperfect being.

I propose another definition: love is like light, in that, the stronger it is, the darker the shadow it casts.

[David C. Hunter]

Cersei does put her children before herself-I would hope that the WoS proved that much at least.

Ironically, I think a lot of people here are making the exact same mistake Cersei does. Because her parenting does not fit how readers believe she should act, they jump to the conclusion that she does not actually love her children.

Yes, she loves her kids. She's really bad at loving them, but that does not mean that the love does not exist.

No, it's not that. It's just that the way if which she treats them doesn't match what she says. "Im doing this for tommen." "I have to protect tommen." but her actions say "Im doing this to protect me." Most of the time IMO anyway

[Queen Cersei I]

Well, in brief:

Does Cersei love:

a. Her father? No. I’d say she respects, idolizes, and wants to emulate him. But she does not truly love him.

b. Jaime? Yes, in a sense. But like his for her, this love is a very sick, selfish, and conditional love based on mutual fantasies, dependence, and self deception rather than realities of trust and emotional honesty.

c. Her children? Yes, unconditionally I would say, for this one alone, yes.

Is Cersei always a good mother? Hell no. Doesn’t she love power nearly as much of her children? Certainly. Isn’t she evil and without empathy for nearly all other people, save her children? Sure, but I don’t see how callousness and a capacity for genuine love cannot exist in the same person.

There are numerous indications that Cersei loves her children. Cersei tends to view most people around her as inhuman and treats them very callously; her children are the only people for whom she appears to be able to feel some empathy for. For instance, I can hardly picture Cersei looking (or caring to look) in depth with anyone else the way she did with Joff when she reflected that her poor boy had been lonely and had few friends, and that part of hiss affection for the hound was based in his need for a father figure.

Furthermore, the idea that she sees Joff as a mini me does not add up with her apparently shrewd analysis of the boys character during her convo with Sansa after the latter’s first flowering. “He hates you since you saw him as he was that day, and now he can never let you forget it.” Cersei clearly realizes Joffrey’s need to see himself a certain way, and can, to an extent, recognize his narcissism. (Even if she is unsuccessful in condemning it.)

She is pretty nasty to Tommen as well.

Yet she does not seem to find many faults with him.

On the other hand, Tommen, who is a good, well-behaved boy, is treated with contempt and she constantly threatens him. 


I think she does sincerely love Tommen as much as she loved Joff, but she incorrectly percieves his character. She perceives Tommen's decency as weakness just as she mistook Joffrey's nastiness for strength.

Also, I don't see Cersei as not loving Tommen. I see her as being negative towards him because she fears he is weak and that that will make him vulnerable to the enemies that Cersei believes surround them. For instance:

Tommen did as he was bid. His meekness troubled her. A king had to be strong. Joffrey would have argued. He was never easy to cow. “Don’t slump so,” she told Tommen. “Sit like a king. Put your shoulders back and straighten your crown. Do you want it to tumble off your head in front of all your lords?”

Yet along with her criticism there seems to be genuine love and affection:

“No, mother.” The boy sat straight and reached up to fix the crown. Joff’s crown was too big for him. Tommen had always inclined to plumpness, but his faced seemed thinner now. Is he eating well? She must remember to ask the steward.” AFFC, p. 141

[Tumnas the Torpid]

Well, in brief:

Does Cersei love:

a. Her father? No. I’d say she respects, idolizes, and wants to emulate him. But she does not truly love him.

b. Jaime? Yes, in a sense. But like his for her, this love is a very sick, selfish, and conditional love based on mutual fantasies, dependence, and self deception rather than realities of trust and emotional honesty.

c. Her children? Yes, unconditionally I would say, for this one alone, yes.

Yet along with her criticism there seems to be genuine love and affection:

Here's a tangential question. There's a bit of quote from the text in the original post (I don't think it will appear quoted here) where Cersei observes that Joffrey's crown does not sit well on Tommen's head. I believe that it is later in this chapter that she thinks that she should see the goldsmiths about a new crown for Tommen.

Much later in AFfC, Cersei mentions putting on a crown: "The new one. The spun gold.," or something like that.

Did Cersei steal her little boy's crown?