Global Diversity SFF Thread

[Datepalm]

Hey, theres no Israeli conspiracy. We don't all actually know each other. Or have any desire to. I'm cheerfully antisocial. (Apparently true story: at some India-Israel trade conference (or something) the Indian Ambassador (or someone) said in opening remarks, "...blah, blah, contacts between are our nations are of great global importance, after all, India and Israel together have close to a sixths of the world's population." Well, technically.)

[Sci-2]

Whoah, I was definitely NOT trying to hint at any Jewish conspiracy. Fuck the Nazi twits.

I'm more of a Fiddler on the Roof type matchmaker.

[Galleymac]

I want you to know that I totally did a bit of the Tevye dance just now, and I hate you for reminding me how suggestible I am.

Edit: Oooh! I just hit eleventy-one posts.

[Galactus]

We don't all actually know each other.

But you know someone who does, right? At least it's the way it works here.

[Datepalm]

Whoah, I was definitely NOT trying to hint at any Jewish conspiracy. Fuck the Nazi twits.

Clearly, you're callously wading into incredibly delicate cultural nuances of etc.

Galactus...well, statistically, probably, yeah.

[Sci-2]

I want you to know that I totally did a bit of the Tevye dance just now, and I hate you for reminding me how suggestible I am.

Edit: Oooh! I just hit eleventy-one posts.

I think I'm gonna have to get the film and rewatch it. Hopefully it's on Amazon Instant Video, b/c I hate having new material things.

eta: Woot on 111! Make a wish!

[Galactus]

I do agree with DP, both about the vocabulary thing (to be fair, all political groups, especially the slightly fringie-y ones, tends to develop that kind of vocabulary, just look at marxists)

I do think there's a tendency especially on the internet (which is kinda understandable, trolls et. al.) that goes something like "If it's not racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever then it's fine." Which y'know... It isn't. Telling someone to go kill themselves isn't fine, even if there's nothing racist about it.

I also think a lot of these things threads eerily close to a kind of 19th century essentialist nationalism: Herder, Fichte, volksgeist, etc. etc. Clean up the language a bit and they could be early 19th century germans railing against french influence. There's a sense to which these discussions aren't just problematic, but they're not even new.

[Datepalm]

I've never seen Fiddler on the Roof and have no idea what you guys are talking about. I probably should, it seems to be really important to the American conception of Jewishness.

I do agree with DP, both about the vocabulary thing (to be fair, all political groups, especially the slightly fringie-y ones, tends to develop that kind of vocabulary, just look at marxists)

Take it back! You're just stychically perpetuating the false conciousness of the hegemonic super-structure paradigm!!!

I do think there's a tendency especially on the internet (which is kinda understandable, trolls et. al.) that goes something like "If it's not racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever then it's fine." Which y'know... It isn't. Telling someone to go kill themselves isn't fine, even if there's nothing racist about it.

Sure, there's basic civility and behaving like a goddamned human being, which seems to be hard over the internet but I do believe it's getting a bit better, with the internet getting more integrated into people's social lives. Or maybe we're just seeing how nasty we've always been behind closed doors. Who knows?

I also think a lot of these things threads eerily close to a kind of 19th century essentialist nationalism: Herder, Fichte, volksgeist, etc. etc. Clean up the language a bit and they could be early 19th century germans railing against french influence. There's a sense to which these discussions aren't just problematic, but they're not even new.

Can you elaborate a bit?

[Galactus]

Can you elaborate a bit?

All these postcolonial things about oppression, about "silencing of voices", etc. is all very similar to what the german nationalists/romantics were about. (even insofar as I suspect they're both largely constructing a national identity/genuine idea of "the people" rather than expressing it) It's all very focused on words and some kind of search for the "genuine". I mean, it's not exactly the same of course, there's a lot of 19th century baggage that we've shed, but it seems to be largely the same thing: The idea that there's some kind of inherent spiritual quality that can only be expressed by some kind of idealized genuine person uncorrupted by the french/the west whatever.

The words used are different, but it still seems to boil down to "only germans (and especially then poor germans in the countryside) can express the uniquely german national spirit". Only with different words.

Which of course, isn't neccessarily wrong, per se, there's certainly something about haivng grown up in a culture that means you probably understand it better than an outsider (OTOH there's the problem of home-blindness, but that's a different issue) but it's still following in a pretty well-worn track.

And this might just be me, but unlike class structures (which are by definition hierarchical, it's kind of what class IS) and gender (which has been pretty consistent across most human civilizations, even though there are differences) imperialism/racism is such a very fluid topic. Fuck, european colonial domination of Africa by and large didn't even last a century. Even at it's widest the hegemony of the west is only a couple of centuries old. (compare to the fact that as long as we've had human civilization there's always been a class that eats and a class that works, whatever their names be)

Which doesen't mean that it can't have profound impact of course, but a lot of postcolonial thought seems to be incredibly narrow in it's conceptions (and oddly enough, often peculiarly US-centered, as usual, no one cares about Poland)

[Galleymac]

Fiddler on the Roof is a musical based on one of the short stories ("Tevye and His Daughters") by this fellow:

http://en.wikipedia....Sholem_Aleichem

The actual short story is much, much sadder. (And the musical is pretty melancholy itself.)

[Datepalm]

Galicia is the only colonialism I care about...Of course, i'm not sure what side i'm on there, per say...Lvov FTW.

What I find curious here is that I don't necessairly know what's being talked about - is it, I dunno, Indian culture? Chinese Culture? Women's culture? Gay culture? The culture of India Kerala Jewish Gay Women? Etc, or are we talking about this kind of big...culture of the oppressed? Culture of negatives? Un!white, un!male, un!straight, etc? A lot of this still seems to be running through a western prism. I remember it came as a major sort of huh moment for me, when I was in Turkey, I think, when I kind of spotted my biases about what I expected people to be interested in. Westerners can be interested in whatever, and non-westerners can be interested in westerns stuff, but surely it's odd that a Turkish woman is interested in Korean culture? Well, no.

[Galactus]

Galicia is the only colonialism I care about...

Which one? The one in Spain or the one in Poland/the Ukraine/Slovakia?

Etc, or are we talking about this kind of big...culture of the oppressed? Culture of negatives? Un!white, un!male, un!straight, etc?

That's one of the questions isn't it?

And it's of course even more complex than that. I'd have a hard time putting say, Poland (useful thing, Poland, the punching-bag of Europe), into a basket of "colonialist oppressors", for instance, certainly as regards say, India. (when discussion polish-ukrainian relations things are of course, different) Basically, I have a hard time thinking of colonialism as this universal thing: Too many differences (who is doing it to who, where, etc. etc.)

Not to mention (and this is pretty frightening in itself) how little attention was actually given to the entire imperialism thing. The number of europeans involved was rather remarkably small, and even for the brits most of their attention remained focused on what was going on at home or in Europe.

Westerners can be interested in whatever, and non-westerners can be interested in westerns stuff, but surely it's odd that a Turkish woman is interested in Korean culture? Well,

no

.

There was a moroccan guy on tvtropes. Apparently they used to air quite a bit of anime there. (although Saudi Arabia banned Pokemon for being a zionist plot, or something)

[Galleymac]

Galicia is the only colonialism I care about...Of course, i'm not sure what side i'm on there, per say...Lvov FTW.

What I find curious here is that I don't necessairly know what's being talked about - is it, I dunno, Indian culture? Chinese Culture? Women's culture? Gay culture? The culture of India Kerala Jewish Gay Women? Etc, or are we talking about this kind of big...culture of the oppressed? Culture of negatives? Un!white, un!male, un!straight, etc? A lot of this still seems to be running through a western prism. I remember it came as a major sort of huh moment for me, when I was in Turkey, I think, when I kind of spotted my biases about what I expected people to be interested in. Westerners can be interested in whatever, and non-westerners can be interested in westerns stuff, but surely it's odd that a Turkish woman is interested in Korean culture? Well, no.

It has to do with the Global Hierarchy of Culture, and the sheer impossibility, IMO, of ever really "sorting it out" -- though some who cite it seem to feel that it is already concretely sorted.

Convoluted way of saying "case by case basis," I guess. The world is complex and should be treated as such.

[Datepalm]

It has to do with the Global Hierarchy of Culture,

I was really disappointed with that, becuase prior to clicking it I was sure I was going to get a flowchart. Maybe some sort of pyramid. Can I have a flowchart?

[Galleymac]

I was really disappointed with that, becuase prior to clicking it I was sure I was going to get a flowchart. Maybe some sort of pyramid. Can I have a flowchart?

I can't give you a flowchart, it would make me sad. Although you're asking so plaintively I am now sad I can't give you a flowchart. Damn.

[Bastard of Godsgrace]

And it's of course even more complex than that. I'd have a hard time putting say, Poland (useful thing, Poland, the punching-bag of Europe), into a basket of "colonialist oppressors", for instance, certainly as regards say, India. (when discussion polish-ukrainian relations things are of course, different) Basically, I have a hard time thinking of colonialism as this universal thing: Too many differences (who is doing it to who, where, etc. etc.)

Yeah, this is one of the reasons I really hate the whole "postcolonial" narrative which tries to convince me I don't exist. Another reason is that (as you notice)it seems depressingly alike the protofascist rhetoric. Interestingly, there is ongoing debate in Poland in which some conservative pundits try to hijack the whole thing and describe contemporary Poland as postcolonial society ruled by "comprador elites". They do have a point, BTW, but it is also quite simplistic, since we were of course not only colonized but also colonizers from Ukrainian or Lithuanian POV.

[Sci-2]

I think there's a lot of complexity in all of this, enough that what Datepalm aptly calls the un!identities start to look a little silly.

At the same time, I don't like the idea that every lazy fool who writes a poorly researched or biased depiction of any country should be credited with putting forth an argument or piece of artwork or whatever. Some people are just relying on ignorance to coast by, or are just writing silly shit.

Then, swinging the pendulum the other way, sometimes outsider perspectives are really useful. Calasso and Doniger both provide some remarkably interesting interpretations/insights into Hinduism, the latter presents work on lower caste, feminist, and LGBT narratives that I'm not sure would have been produced in India. I don't always like Doniger's way of writing about Hinduism, but I am glad she's around.

[Sci-2]

Apex Book of World SF 2

In The Apex Book of World SF 2, editor Lavie Tidhar collects short stories by science fiction and fantasy authors from Africa and Latin America.

An expedition to an alien planet; Lenin rising from the dead; a superhero so secret he does not exist. In The Apex Book of World SF 2, World Fantasy Award nominated editor Lavie Tidhar brings together a unique collection of stories from around the world. Quiet horror from Cuba and Australia; surrealist fantasy from Russia and epic fantasy from Poland; near-future tales from Mexico and Finland, as well as cyberpunk from South Africa. In this anthology one gets a glimpse of the complex and fascinating world of genre fiction—from all over our world.

Featuring work from noted international authors such as Will Elliot, Hannu Rajaniemi, Shweta Narayan, Lauren Beukes, Ekaterina Sedia, Nnedi Okorafor, and Andrzej Sapkowski.

[Sci-2]

1) Stories by Zen Cho, I started with the House of Aunts:

The house stood back from the road in an orchard. In the orchard, monitor lizards the length of a man’s arm stalked the branches of rambutan trees like tigers on the hunt. Behind the house was an abandoned rubber tree plantation, so proliferant with monkeys and leeches and spirits that it might as well have been a forest.

Inside the house lived the dead.

2) DC Comics introduces Muslim superhero.

In typical comic books there’s a big handsome white guy and that’s it. But that’s not the world we live in, and comics are reflecting that,” Thor Parker, social marketing and event director at Midtown Comics in New York, told Reuters.

3) Intersection between the Weird and mythology of Phillipines, by

Rochita Loenen-Ruiz.

There is a story of a woman who gave birth to a shard of porcelain that grew into the image of the Virgin Mary and her son. This image was guarded carefully by the woman’s family and handed down from mother to daughter, from aunt to niece. The image became a source of strength for the family, and the women into whose hands it came were gifted with the ability to heal people.

This story was told to me by a fellow Filipina, and the woman who gave birth in this story was her great grandmother.

Truth or Fiction? You tell me.

[Kegg]

Interesting thread (as an Irishman particularly enjoyed the article on that hilariously weird American urban fantasy - ugh, and Song of Kali sounded so bad I had to look it up to be sure it was as bad as it sounded and then realized it looked a lot worse.) I realise it's probably the height of redundancy to say this (as a couple of articles written by Nnedi Okorafor are linked here, and also she won a goddamn award already) but I really enjoyed Who Fears Death? as a novel that took the idea of the chosen one and placed it in a fantasy-ish post-apocalyptic Africa. Strongly and sympathetically characterised and quite riveting and whatnot.

And uh... John Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar I'll mention for what I considered to be its interesting and even handed depictions of two fictional third world countries, Beninia (an African state) and Yatakang (vaguely Indonesia), as well as a plethora of other characters and subjects, including an upwardly mobile Muslim American businessman called Norman House. It's funny, vivid, frank, angry and... insert 'good' words in here. Or something.

I'll bow out now.