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Angalin

R+L = J v. 24

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A few of the posts on the last page of the previous thread. Have at it!

Agreed.

The problem I have with Rhaegar and Ashara is, I suppose from a literary standpoint, what would be the point, or end game here?

What plot device, or purpose would this new, and very complicated story line bring, as Rhaegar still has some explaining to do with Lyanna?

While I do think there will be a deconstruction of Rhaegars character, (especially the way Dany hero-worships him), and question the mysterious nature of Lyannas feelings in all this, I do by and large think he is a positive character.

And I think that R and A would take his character to truly unsympathetic.

Just a few things.

I noted that disussion said Ashara danced with several men, and Martin probably means for these individuals to be the possible suspects, but I also noted that discussion stated one of them was a Dragon, Rhaegar, but that was not correct. Rhaegar did not dance with Ashara.

They were:

A Griffin, (JonCon- not likely the Father).

A Red Snake, (Oberyn)

A white coat, (Possibly Elias Uncle who was a KG, but who also kept a paramour).

A Quiet Wolf, (Ned), but only on the request of Brandon, who she most likely became "acquainted" with.

Ashara was also a member of a Dornish House known for it's honor, and first and foremost, Bannermen to the Martels and owe them their loyalty.

Also, why wait until Harrenhal?

They were already a clique' at Court, so if Rhaegar wanted to engage in that, then he already would have, and most likely all the KG, including Selmy would have known, because there is no reason for Rhaegar to hide his affairs- the KG guard, not judge.

Aerys didn't hide his behavior.

I also tend to think Elia was already pregnant at the time of Harrenhal, perhaps in the early stages, but nonetheless, at that point, Rhaegar didn't know that this child would be his last.

(Though, I can see the possibility that Elia had miscarriages before, and their marriage was becoming strained under the pressure, but I think he would be more apt to set her aside than engage in the kind of subterfuge).

Also, the level of that kind of baby switching would need all kinds of privacy, and they had less privacy then than now, with all eyes on them, and probably many of them not friendly no matter how pleasant Elia was.

It would involve the Maester too which I doubt he'd give Elia Martel more loyalty than Rhaegar Targaryen.

I tend to think Rhaegar fell hard and fairly quick for Lyanna. The way Selmy says, "Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna...." just the possessiveness of that statement suggests to me that perhaps it may have been obvious to many.

There is also an interesting scene in a Jon POV where he is thinking about his relationship with Ygritte, and wonders if his "Father" felt the same shame and ectasy, (paraphrasing), in his Mothers bed.

Of course he's thinking of Ned, but this could be a look back into what we'll see as some guilt on Rhaegars part for betraying his vows to Elia, though it was a political marriage and he made no claims to love Elia.

As to why Ashara might turn to a Stark,(Ned), his Brother Brandon would be the common denominator between the two, and while Ned might be resentful of perhaps Brandon and Ashara,(and there is a hint of what might be resentment in his statement to Cat about everything being meant for Brandon), he'd still remain the loyal Brother, but be sympathetic to Ashara.

If Rhaegar, or anyone else did this to her, Ashara would hardly confide in a man, and one she had just met.

So, I guess IMHO, the Rhaegar and Ashara theory is just too too much, with Lyanna thrown into that mix as well.

Now, if there WAS a Targaryen likely to dishonor Ashara, I'd put my money on Aerys.

That also might be a reason why Arthur Dayne, an honorable KG chose to engage in a speculated coup with Rhaegar, playing at politics, something KG aren't supposed to do as I don't think just being Rhaegars best friend is reason enough as R would be King one day in due time.

I tend towards Aegon being a Blackfyre given the signifigance of Bloodravens presence, and the emphasis on the Golden Company, or somehow descended from Aerion Brightflame and a female Blackfyre as that blood would be the only kind good enough for him to marry, even if it's illigitimate.

He did leave behind a legitimate son, who was passed over in the succession.

So, he's a dragon, just not Rhaegars, and given Varys sowing dissention between Rhaella, Rhaegar,(who were supposed to be good for the realm), and Aerys, I speculate he's working from within for the Blackfyre cause, and he can still think he's doing well for the realm if he believes the Blackfyres to be better.

http://www.westeros....Signing_Oregon/

Seems to me like there's no real genes to pass on as much as there is some reeeaaallllyyy basic genetics. More of a bloodline kind of thing, instead of alleles and dominant/recessive traits

For the record, I don't really think it was Rhaegar, it was just another idea I was floating. And at Harrenhal, I think Rhaegar was more busy playing politics to "fall in love" with Lyanna. Plus, I also don't think Rhaegar was in on a potential Ashara-Elia baby switch, I never said that.

But for interest sake, lets imagine this scenario. Elia was a political marriage for Rhaegar, he didn't love her, though he probably did like her. Elia was sick for a long time after the birth of each of her children. After she gave birth to Rhaenys, she was probably worried that Rhaegar was going to throw her over. To make matters worse, Tywin Lannister had his hot young daughter at court, both of them just waiting to swoop in on Rhaegar the minute Elia fell down dead. To keep Rhaegar from straying, Elia may have engaged the assistance of her friend Ashara. She may have asked Ashara to keep Rhaegar company, escort him to balls, go out riding with him, that sort of thing. And the agreement may or may not have extended to keeping Rhaegar entertained in the bedroom. From Elia's perspective, it would be better to have Rhaegar running around with a woman she trusts than to have him fall into the clutches of someone like Cersei Lannister. So I am thinking that there may have been an 'understanding' between Elia and Ashara and Rhaegar.

I don't think it disproves R+L=J. It seems like the Stark wargs of this generation were helped along "magically." That's why there are so many of them despite the almost literal impossibility. Something else is at work there and it's not just genetics. But even if it were, no reason why a brother and a sister couldn't both pass it on.

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Why on earth do you need so many R+L=J threads? Isn't 1 or 2 or 23 enough?

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Well, L(ice)+R(Fire)=J is the essence of the whole story. This story is like a tribute to their tragic love, and if Jon can wind up as King of the Seven Kingdoms it will be like a triumph.

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No it will not. It will be cliche and anticlimactic.

I'll never understand people's problems with clichés. So many books/movies/comics etc on similar subjects have been written already that keeping a new story 100% free of clichés is a logistic impossibility. The problem is not that an author might use a repeated formula, only how s/he uses it, if he manages to write it in a satisfactory way that makes sense inside the story and manages to captivate the readers until the end. I trust Martin, whatever solution he gives to whether Jon sits the Iron Throne or not, I approve.

ETA

Why on earth do you need so many R+L=J threads? Isn't 1 or 2 or 23 enough?

There are this many threads because new fans are always coming and trying to keep up with all the theories going about, and not rarely one of them always manages to bring a new element that raises new questions that only contribute to the discussion. If we ended up on v.24 already, well... I guess this only proves the strength and centrality of this theory when compared to any other in ASoIaF, whether everyone agrees with it or not.

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I'll never understand people's problems with clichés. So many books/movies/comics etc on similar subjects have been written already that keeping a new story 100% free of clichés is a logistic impossibility. The problem is not that an author might use a repeated formula, only how s/he uses it, if he manages to write it in a satisfactory way that makes sense inside the story and manages to captivate the readers until the end. I trust Martin, whatever solution he gives to whether Jon sits the Iron Throne or not, I approve.

100% :agree:

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No it will not. It will be cliche and anticlimactic.

what lady octarina said plus:

and its not a cliche after all. There are a thousand surveys proving that most readers who DON'T follow fan forums/ social network groups etc have no idea about the R+L theory and are totally convinced of Ned's paternity.

Why on earth do you need so many R+L=J threads? Isn't 1 or 2 or 23 enough?

why do we need so many threads of Dany's hate, AA prophecy related, best westeros matches blah blah blah? blame it on the books' success. We never have enough talking about it!!! that's "fandom" about :D :D :D :D

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Two words - Sparkly vampires. This is what can happen if you go against tropes just 'cause. I'd prefer a well constructed story that adheres to some tropes (the hidden heir for instance) rather than sparkly vampires.

Also, Martin has subverted quite a few cliches. In the traditional fantasy stories, the hidden heir is just naturally a good leader and politician. Both Dany and Jon get a hand at ruling in ADWD and both blunder pretty severely. (And yes, Jon's predicament at the end of ADWD is partially due to his errors.) Jon is better at ruling than Dany, but that is because he received political and military training during his childhood. Dany spent hers fleeing across the Free Cities and probably didn't receive much of a formal education. That is a subverted trope that is grounded in reality. Two teens thrust into leadership positions before they were ready are going to screw up.

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I'll never understand people's problems with clichés.

People have problems with it because it is bad and lazy writing. That being said, Fantasy is more about the story than the writing quality, so whatever. Just wanted to get that answer out there. I too agree "all stories have been written" to an extent, but it's how you tell the story. Keeping it free of bad writing is always a good step to take.

I personally would feel sick if this theory were to come true, and have him sit the Iron Throne. However, it's a better alternative than another ending.

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I personally would feel sick if this theory were to come true, and have him sit the Iron Throne. However, it's a better alternative than another ending.

what if this theory comes true but he doesn't sit on the Iron Throne?

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I hope both jon and gendry find out who their real dad's are, draw their allegances such, gendry burries a warhammer in jon's chest, and defends westeros succsessfully from dany and her dragons.

That different enough for you guys?

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People have problems with it because it is bad and lazy writing. That being said, Fantasy is more about the story than the writing quality, so whatever. Just wanted to get that answer out there. I too agree "all stories have been written" to an extent, but it's how you tell the story. Keeping it free of bad writing is always a good step to take.

I personally would feel sick if this theory were to come true, and have him sit the Iron Throne. However, it's a better alternative than another ending.

People that call it writing lazy because it has a very familiar plot are hardly being fair to GRRM. He could have told us R+L=J outright immediately through Ned's POV or he could have allowed the reader to believe Ned was Jon's son until the big reveal - either of those might have been lazy. Instead he chose to create a mystery, providing enough hints that a few of the most attentive readers could solve it from the start and gradually working in more clues. In Dance he dropped in much less subtle ideas such as the fisherman's daughter and Ashara's stillbirth to clue in the more casual readers to some discrepency in Jon's parentage - so even if they don't reach R+L=J they still won't be shocked when it is revealed that Ned is not Jon's father.

As for Jon sitting on the Iron Throne, I don't want to see that either, but that isn't part of the R+L=J theory. It's one of the many secondary theories speculating on the outcome if R+L=J is proven true.

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Count me among the multitudes who missed R + L = J the first time around. I spotted it on the Intertwitwebs, re-read the books, especially AGOT, and now I'm totally a believer. Ned's fragments of memories/associations/dreams, which show us tantalizing glimpses in the mind of a PRIMARY source for What Really Happened, are a bit selectively Faulkneresque on Martin's part, but probably as good a way as any to leave a few clues without totally giving it away....

"Promise, me Ned," she whispered. "I don't care about all this prophecy crap that Rhaegar keeps prattling on about, just promise me you won't ever tell anybody that my son is a Targaryen, or else that tool best friend of yours will kill him."

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I'll never understand people's problems with clichés. So many books/movies/comics etc on similar subjects have been written already that keeping a new story 100% free of clichés is a logistic impossibility. The problem is not that an author might use a repeated formula, only how s/he uses it, if he manages to write it in a satisfactory way that makes sense inside the story and manages to captivate the readers until the end. I trust Martin, whatever solution he gives to whether Jon sits the Iron Throne or not, I approve.

ETA

There are this many threads because new fans are always coming and trying to keep up with all the theories going about, and not rarely one of them always manages to bring a new element that raises new questions that only contribute to the discussion. If we ended up on v.24 already, well... I guess this only proves the strength and centrality of this theory when compared to any other in ASoIaF, whether everyone agrees with it or not.

I'll always say that I'd rather have a well told story, even if it is a cliche' rather than an attempt at being "original," (which after thousands of years of storytelling is not easy), and end up with a poorly told story.

Romeo and Juliet may be a "cliche," but hundreds of years later, we're still talking about it.

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People that call it writing lazy because it has a very familiar plot are hardly being fair to GRRM.

I wasn't referring to any writing in the books with that statement. Someone asked why people get upset when cliches are put into stories. I wanted to offer an answer that came from someone who writes/studies writing. Many writers believe cliches to be "lazy" or "poor writing." In literary fiction this is mostly true, but as you get into genres, it's more acceptable because the writing becomes more about the overall tale and storytelling rather than the literary details.That said, I would offer GRRM some leniency when it comes to cliches if it makes the story better.

To whoever asked me if I would feel the same if Jon turned out to be the son of R+L but did not sit the Iron Throne, my answer is still yes. I love Jon, but hate the Targs (exception of Aemon) with every bone in my body. I'm not trying to start a fight here -- just how I feel when I read about them.

EDIT: To the final answer about Jon, I may find it personally acceptable if he chooses to stay at the Wall, or identify as a Stark/Snow (w/e) -- keeping his pledged allegiance to his brothers and true family.

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Snip

I really don't hate the Targs - I think they have a real knack for conquering. Fire consumes and destroys.

Starks on the other hand endure. Great for ruling.

Hence why I think Jon should sit the iron throne. It seems the simplest route to rally the south to the wall. But if he doesn't sit the throne, the realm will just have to endure a few more centuries of conquerors, and not rulers - ala Dany.

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If Jon is facing the final the battle , and in case of victory,never ending summer is coming,there would be no use in NW.

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Welcome Teddard.

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Why on earth do you need so many R+L=J threads? Isn't 1 or 2 or 23 enough?

People keep replying to the threads, that's why there have been so many. If you don't like it or don't think the thread's worth posting in, don't.

And the idea that if this theory is true, it's "bad or lazy writing" is absurd. Bad or lazy writing is having a cheap "gotcha" ending out of nowhere. And I dislike the Targs, too — all the best ones are dead and most of them have been dead for a while. I like Jon despite him being a Targ, not because of it. And I can think of no better way to kick Targ self-importance in the nuts than for Jon to learn he's half-Targ, spit on it and identify instead with the Starks.

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