Prince of Dragonstone Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Well Dorne did send 10 000 spears to the Trident under the command of Lewyn Martell and so I think that they give what they had as I'm kind of thinking that 10 000 spears might be what Dorne can project outside of their own bordersYes, but considering that a scion of their house was married to a Targaryen and was effectively being held hostage at the Red Keep you would think they would have given at least half of their forces to the war effort and MUCH sooner than they did. They waited until the end of the war to finally arouse because of the perceived dishonoring that Rhaegar gave Elia. They dragged their feet, plain and simple. If Prince Quentyn is to be believed, House Martell can emass 50,000 swords. So in this respect, 10,000 still seems like a weak jester, even if was led by Lewyn. The Targaryens' only real ally during the Rebellion was House Tyrell. As far as Tywin, I can't argue you there and I actually like his character and think Robb was overrated but I was trying to see both angles, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Direwolf Lager Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 can't trust Lannisters or Martells, but setting that aside, Tywin would definitely be the better ally. You can never underestimate the importance of financial resources, and Tywin has all the gold of Casterly Rock in his possession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurkhal Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Yes, but considering that a scion of their house was married to a Targaryen and was effectively being held hostage at the Red Keep you would think they would have given at least half of their forces to the war effort and MUCH sooner than they did. They waited until the end of the war to finally arouse because of the perceived dishonoring that Rhaegar gave Elia. They dragged their feet, plain and simple. If Prince Quentyn is to be believed, House Martell can emass 50,000 swords. So in this respect, 10,000 still seems like a weak jester, even if was led by Lewyn. The Targaryens' only real ally during the Rebellion was House Tyrell.Well I think that 50 000 swords is very much a fictional number. Doran does tell Arienne if I'm not mistaken that Dorne does not at all have 50 000 spears but is actually the weakest of the kingdoms, even weaker than the Stormlands, and thus I think they might have around 20 000 men or so in total.That Quentyn told Daenerys they had 50 000 might be that either he's mistaken like Arienne was or he's just trying to sweeten the deal and make it sound better.In regards to being summoned its of course possible that they dragged their feet although I'm of the mind that Rhaegar was the first one to tell them to get their stuff together and meet him at King's Landing.As far as Tywin, I can't argue you there and I actually like his character and think Robb was overrated but I was trying to see both angles, I suppose.No harm in looking at things from other angles. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted April 30, 2012 Author Share Posted April 30, 2012 He was only imprisoned when Maekar came to power, who was known to have a grudge again Brynden. I'd say he was leagues ahead of Tywin as a hand. Bloodraven stopped a rebellion before it could even start properly. In comparison Tywin let the King get kidnapped.The realm prospered despite the fact that a complete psychopath was King, look at what happened without Tywin holding shit together. A dynasty 300 years old collapsed and half of Westeros burned. I am not saying Bloodraven was a bad hand but he was a better master of spys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milcov Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 Yes, but considering that a scion of their house was married to a Targaryen and was effectively being held hostage at the Red Keep you would think they would have given at least half of their forces to the war effort and MUCH sooner than they did. They waited until the end of the war to finally arouse because of the perceived dishonoring that Rhaegar gave Elia. They dragged their feet, plain and simple. If Prince Quentyn is to be believed, House Martell can emass 50,000 swords. So in this respect, 10,000 still seems like a weak jester, even if was led by Lewyn. The Targaryens' only real ally during the Rebellion was House Tyrell.As far as Tywin, I can't argue you there and I actually like his character and think Robb was overrated but I was trying to see both angles, I suppose.I doubt they could get 50'000 troops. Dorne is known to be the weakest military region. We also don't know if Dorne dragged their feet due to Rhaegar and Lyanna, with how Doran and especially Oberyn feel about Elia I really doubt they were slow to help get her out of Aerys' grasp. They also sent Prince Lewyn to the Trident. They may have waited until the end of the war because the Rebellion wasn't seen as anything too serious until the Trident, and Dorne would be a difficult place to mobilise.To answer the question I'd take Dorne, if you promised vengeance for Elia then I think you'd get their support, plus if it's going poorly you can flea to Dorne where it'll be very difficult to be defeated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 If there is trust between you and Tywin, then definitely Tywin. He has a powerful army, a strategically sound mind, and can play the Game of Thrones. However he will likely end up controlling you :PIt is also mentioned several times that the Martells don't have all that powerful of an army, compared to the other kingdoms.Is there trust between Tywin and anybody but Kevan? Jaime and Cersei have too many flaws in their manners of leadership to trust either of them. Joffrey was the second wost king Tywin had ever served and Joanna is dead. Tommen and Tywin may have grown close but I think he was too soft for Tywins taste.Tyrion is Tywin in a deformed body so he couldnt trust him. If Cersei had born a son, even a Baratheon son, who was somewhat like Tywin then maybe those two could have grown close. Its possible but I am still unsure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 In the end, I don't think anyone trusted Tywin... and anyone who did ended up dead. He sucked at the Game. You don't mess around with your son's whores.Tywin had 99 problems, all of them bitches Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuisDantas Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Tywin, at least during the timeframe of Song, is useless at his best.I can only assume he used to be far wiser in matters of state during Aerys' time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuisDantas Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Tyrion is Tywin in a deformed body so he couldnt trust him.Wait, WHAT?!?Tyrion was very, very different from Tywin. Good for him, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Tywin, Dorne has no power of projection of forces, especially if the Reach/Stormlands are not a part of the cause. The Westerlands, meanwhile, can send out huge armies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Wait, WHAT?!?Tyrion was very, very different from Tywin. Good for him, too.tell that to his Aunt Genna, who knew them both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuisDantas Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 I am puzzled by her statement. I can only guess how often she saw them, anyway.In all honesty, I think it will turn out that she is simply wrong, no further explanation offered or needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valyrian_steel Posted August 2, 2012 Share Posted August 2, 2012 Well Tywin's dead, so ...Even considering that fact I still think it's a toss-up whether ud get help from Tywin or Doran first :drunk: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted August 2, 2012 Author Share Posted August 2, 2012 Wait, WHAT?!?Tyrion was very, very different from Tywin. Good for him, too.You know what I mean, or a guess you dont. I meant that Tyrion has Tywins strong leadership qualities and intellect. Tyrion is the man that can take House Lannister forward after Tywin had restored the house, but because he is deformed he can never accept him as his heir. Jaime and Cersei are whole and would hvae destroyed everything Tywin built (Cersei pretty much has) but Tyrion had what it took. Like Genna said, Tyrion is Tywins son. I didnt mena there was no difference, although they do have similiar taste in whores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naathi Prince Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I am puzzled by her statement. I can only guess how often she saw them, anyway.In all honesty, I think it will turn out that she is simply wrong, no further explanation offered or needed.both Tyrion and Tywin are ruthless men. If Tyrion had not been born an imp/his mother didn't die in bith, he would have been his father's pride and joy. He is absolutely ruthless (singer's stew) and quite clever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Djinn Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 I guess it all depends on what are the term of the alliance. If there is a family connection with Tywin, then would be the better ally(great wealth, military power, political acumen), but if there isn't something long term that would align Tywin goal with mine, then Doran would a saffer choice. Notice that House Lannister lends the Crown over 3 million gold dragons, and there is no talk of interest or urgency of repayment. Does anyone believe that if Cersei, Joff, Tommen and Myrcella didn't exist, Tywin would have been so lenient with this debt? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LuisDantas Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 You know what I mean, or a guess you dont.I don't.I meant that Tyrion has Tywins strong leadership qualities and intellect. Tyrion is the man that can take House Lannister forward after Tywin had restored the house, but because he is deformed he can never accept him as his heir. Jaime and Cersei are whole and would hvae destroyed everything Tywin built (Cersei pretty much has) but Tyrion had what it took. Like Genna said, Tyrion is Tywins son. I didnt mena there was no difference, although they do have similiar taste in whores.Tywin is not a strong leader, but rather a predatory one. Tyrion consistently puts him to shame, even if his own deep need for acceptance blinds him to that fact.Incidentally, Jaime and Kevan are also far better leaders than Tywin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sunset King Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 Tywin, at least during the timeframe of Song, is useless at his best.I can only assume he used to be far wiser in matters of state during Aerys' time.One of the characters claims that the best parts of Tywin perished when his wife died. He probably still had numerous negative traits before then but presumably some positive qualities actually existed at those periods of time, unlike what he has become by the time that AGOT takes place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitakon Posted August 3, 2012 Share Posted August 3, 2012 The only redeeming quality of Dorne is Ashara Dayne and Oberyn's daughters. The guy must be half-female seeing that he could only produce daughters. his genetic marker might just be xyy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batman Posted August 3, 2012 Author Share Posted August 3, 2012 Tywin is not a strong leader, but rather a predatory one. Tyrion consistently puts him to shame, even if his own deep need for acceptance blinds him to that fact.Incidentally, Jaime and Kevan are also far better leaders than Tywin.You say this even after GRRM has said that Tywin is a strong and competant hand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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