[Book Spoilers] EP 205 Discussion

[niñostark]

I loved the Jaqen thing and I'm loving Theon and Tyrion arcs.

I'm okay with adaptations and there are gonna be some differences, but there are obvious and significant changes horribly done

I didn´t like Renly's death, it was dull with a horrible razzie performance by Brienne (excellent casting on the looks though)

The whole Qarth arc was very simple to do by the book, the changes seem unnecesary and badly done.

I love Arya, the hatred in her eyes scares me :D, I'm worried about the weasel soup eventually, I hope they don't mess with that

As much as I love the Reed kids, we can live without them... but if I don't get Reek I will cry

Edited April 30, 2012 by niñostark

[Fryie]

I'm lazy, so:

- Gendry shirtless: yay!

- Jon being a spoiled brat: wtf?

[Ser Hippie]

I am a bit uncomfortable with a couple changes. Bran giving the order to send 200 men to Torrhen's Square. That kind of makes what follows his mistake. Along the same lines,

As Bran says - if the Starks don't protect their bannermen, why should their bannermen protect them? The Starks need to defend the North from these attacks with the army down south. It doesn't work out because of Theon, of course, but letting Northern castles and towns fall to the ironborn to stay walled up in safety in Winterfell would have been disastrous as well.

[Howland Reed]

2 scenes that I really loved.

Brienne Tarth beating the piss out of those 2 guards that came in. That fight scene, in my opinion, was done very well and showed how strong this girl is, she total pistol whipped the crap out of them. Just thought they portrayed her fighting prowess very well there.

Arya and Tywin. I got chills when Arya was like... Anyone can die, just staring right at his eyes... That was puuuurfect. God I love that girl.

[Rockroi]

Yeah, Jon's line was lame.

So, when I wrote my original review, I stated that I hated that Jon pined for this assignment; that in the books Halfhand picked Jon... and then I remembered something; I remembered how completely and totaly lame it was that in the books that Half-hand picked Jon. And so I remoeved that from my original review because the scene in the show is, in my mind, a more realistic assessment of what would have happened.

So, let's back up a step. In the books, Jon Snow is about as action-packed as paste. He stands around and great, amazing things just happen to him through no action of his own. When he DOES do bad actions he is praised for it either by other characters (Jon, please don't go South to Robb... we all love you so much; don't desert us... I mean OTHER THAN THE FACT that you clearly are deserting us right now and that's a crime and all....) or the reader (Jon attacking Aliser Thorne to show he has a bad temper is basically an "Imperfection that serves to make Jon more perfect"). In a nutshell I have routinely lambasted Jon for being a glacier; a man who has great things happen to him but rarely takes action to acheive these great things. Off the top of my head Jon has a super-bad-ass wolf ™, a Valaryian Steel sword, a hot wilding chick, and becomes Lord Commander of the Watch for doing basically nothing (other than his job, which we are told will "win him no glories" but still somehow wins him a shit load of glories).

I really have a big problem with THAT Jon Snow.

This Jon Snow? This Jon Snow has some spunk. He has more drive. He takes more action. Classic point- two weeks ago when Jon follows Craster into the woods. In the book Jon is spared having to take any action that would look pro-active (and its for a reason: whevere a character takes an action they, by nature, piss off any reader who does not like that action; passive characters do not have that problem. This is a classic problem with Dany- a character who takes tones of chances and actions and is one of the most divisive characters in the books). Following Craster in the book would have been way, way way too much action for book Jon to be burdened with. But in the show, this JOn has to be more action-oreintated (time is against the show; stuff has to get done fast). So Jon following Craster is a fine moment.

Getting back to Halfhand, in the books when Quirion picks Jon its hard to crystalize just how horrible the scene is. Quiron Half-hand, a battle hardened ranger, talks to Jon Snow for 15 seconds before going into the tent and talking to Mormont. Jon rejoins then maybe 5 minutes later (maximum) and Qurion is asked to pick his ranging crew. Quirion chooses Jon Snow- a boy he literally just met 5 minutes before. So, yes, of course I will trust my life and the lives of my other men- many I have known for decades -to this boy who has been in the Watch for 8 months (and who, of course, deserted already). Serioulsy- why does Quiron choose Jon (especially when you consider that Jons mission grows EXPONENTIALLY and therefore Quiron must have had some idea of what the stress would be on Jon)? It makes literally no sense. He JUST MET THE BOY! But in the books its totally cool (because, again, Jon is rewarded opulantly for doing his duty- as I stated many times- Three Fingers Hobb has been cooking for years- where is his Valaryian Steel Butcher's Clever? How come Jon gets such a reward after being in the Watch for, what, 6 weeks? No sense. At all).

The fact that Quiron chooses Jon in the books is lame, but its very fast so the reader does not have time to dwell on just how unreaslistic and eye-rolling the scene is. Its over very quickly.

But in the show? Makes no snese for this guy- Half-hand - to choose Jon without a lobbying effort (basically the writers constructed the scene where it now makes sense because in the books it makes no sense). So, the writers do something that MArtin (lord praise his name) rarely does- the writers just cut to the chase. Jon Snow acts- he lobbies for this great oppertunity bbecause TAHT'S WHAT YOUNG MEN DO! Especially ones in military commands. It completely and totaly makes perfect sense for Jon to WANT to go on the mission. So, BOOM! Jon goes on the mission. It makes perfect sense; its absolutely clerar and does not seem artificial at all.

Now, I am not saying the scene "improves" on the book, but "Show Jon" would act this way because the show has invested this Jon with different traits. "Book Jon" would not act this way. He would wait for Half-hand to point at him and say "I choose the little kid I met 5 minutes ago for this death-defying mission." IN the show, Jon has to lobby for the position and his statements make perfects sense. I prefer the show's version and I understand why the book does not operate that way.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Rockroi

[IceVyper]

It was in the last episode that I started getting annoyed with the Talisa situation but in this one, there are way too many things bothering me.

*Renly's death and Loras' reaction. He should have gone mad

*Arya revealing that she is from the North. What would a Northern girl be doing in the Riverlands?? The North is still safe and away from the fighting, why would she be inprisonned? She could have easily said that she was from Riverrun, that sigil she must know. The way they played it makes for more interesting TV but it completely unrealistic. Also, Arya becomes what she becomes because she is a little girl that always has to live through horrors. Being a cupbearer in Harrenhal seems like a holiday compared to her experience in the books

*Bran's story seems completely cut off...

*Quarth - I hope that they are keeping this for a future episode but I do hope that Dany will meet Quaithe and get her warnings. If they only leave it ot a Jorah - Quaithe meeting, that would be such a pity.

and my biggest problem is with Jon: it is painful to realize that we are halfway through the season and he's barely had any speaking time. He's shown in group shots, staring at things, listening. Even Sam talks more than him! Also, what were the writers thinking letting him go off scouting without finding the dragonglass and giving Sam a blade??

[Aegon's Landing]

Everyone's favorite scene between Arya and Tywin...mine too...

I was distraught last week when it was Tywin riding into Harrenhal instead of Bolton, especially because someone as experienced as Tywin wouldnt be lost on the fact that the younger Stark girl was at large. The scene last night between them, the fact that she lied about her first House to cover for another House that made little sense other than it revealed her as a Northerner. I think Tywin suspected who she was at first sight, and that scene confirmed his suspicions.

My other worries about the pending House of the Undying - skipping over the stay in the deserted city before Qarth took away valuable growth time for Drogon et al. He spit a puny puff of fire last night, he's still very much a hatchling. Anyone else concerned about this?

Dani's accelerated story line leaves me worried about Greyworm and the Unsullied. Are they to go the way of the Reeds?

[Merrett Frey]

I was being facetious. :cool4:

I think that's understood.

However, it seems that no one has told you that using the word "retarded" facetiously is hurtful. Your language seemed especially careless when it came on the heels of your pedantic denunciation of the use of "Viking" as a noun. While controversial, it is in common use in that fashion, even among prominent scholars of Norse history. David Wilson provides an excellent examination of the problems with narrowly defining the term here: http://www.archeurope.com/index.php?page=the-term-viking. I congratulate you on your precision; please just try to be compassionate when you're throwing around terms that label human beings.

Thank you.

[boojam]

If you had to guess, who will be Jaquen's third kill?

Since this is a spoiler section:

1) You must not be a reader of the books.

2) Wrong question, who does Arya ask for Jaqen kill thrid?

Answer: Jaqen

Reason.... it sets up one of the best sequences in CoK, and they if they don't do it , it's pitchforks and torches at HBO's headquarters.

Better question who does Arya ask to kill second, in the show that is?

Edited April 30, 2012 by boojam

[Isabella Stark]

What happened to Cat's entourage? I'm pretty sure she had some guards when she arrived at Renly's camp.

Not complaining, just thought it was odd that they disappeared :)

I was wondering the same thing

[Arya The Assassin]

I think this episode was on par with episode 4. I liked the following scenes:

Good:

• Arya's scenes with Jaqen and Lord Tywin. Solid acting and nice dialogue. Maisie looks as cute as ever.
  
• The scene where Dany's baby dragon 'prepares' his food. Excellent job on the dragon. Even better than the one in season one.
  
• The assassination of Lord Renly: Exactly (or very close to) how I envisioned the scene after reading the book. I wasn't too excited by Gethin Anthony as Renly either.
  

Bad:

• Nothing in particular
  

The last two episodes have been relatively well written and well directed, but the sense of excitement and enthusiasm isn't quite there, compared to the best episodes of season one. The series is still going strong though, and based on what I remember from the books, things should get a lot more exciting in the next few episodes.

[boojam]

In the book, Jaqen says the quote pretty much exactly as they said it in the show. "The Red God must have his due..." We don't learn anything about the Many Faced God in ACOK, so why would we in the show?

It's not the show I have a bone to pick with, it's George.

To much gardening and not enough architecturing.

[Ravenhair]

I think at this point the "Based on A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin" appearing in the opening credits should be changed to "Vaguely Reminiscent of A Song of Ice and Fire by George R.R. Martin."

I could spend days nerd raging and nitpicking, but since we're apparently now dealing with D and D's fan fic version of ASoIaF, I'll just say this:

1. Maisie Williams and Charles Dance in a scene together-- wonderful. Maisie's intensity is always a good watch.

2. I thought Gwendoline Christie and Michelle Fairley did excellent work with their scenes together.

3. Husband fell asleep during the episode, but I was able to get off my nerd raging soapbox and just enjoy because Joe Dempsie was shirtless and Tom Wlaschiha is gorgeous (since they're messing with the story so much, I hope D and D keep his story arc a long one). Tom did a great job with Jaqen; I always wondered how that character could have the women swooning and yet be a cool FM. (Maybe the red and white striped hair threw me off). I know now......

4. I never liked the physical description of Jorah Mormont in the books, but Iain Glen is so perfect as Jorah that it is amazing. And he looked great in last night's episode too...

5. Jerome Flynn is a perfect Bronn. Like him more and more each episode.

I'll tune in next week for eye candy and the next installment of D and D's AU ASoIaF.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Ravenhair

[boojam]

This makes sense though...Araya's at large, and Tywin knows he needs her to get Jaime back, and what better way to keep her close at hand than keeping her close as his personal cup bearer? I know it is a major change from the books, but this scenario actually works better for me. Tywin might not flay you, but he's every bit as dangerous, if not moreso, than Roose.

Even the books point out that Jon and his forces don't want to trade Jamie for Sansa (and Arya, if they knew where she was)... it's Cat who changes that dynamic.

So I don't know what Tywin would do with Arya even if he knew...tho D&D have set up a dangerous situation.

[Ran]

boojam,

I don't see an issue. There's nothing in AFfC that is unambiguously inconsistent with Jaqen's actions at Harrenhal. Anything that may possibly be inconsistent is only a possibility -- we genuinely don't know enough to say it's inconsistent for sure, since we have extremely sparse information on the Faceless Men and the rules by which they operate. Arya off-handedly being told a thing does not make it the end all and be all of that information -- there's always nuance, simplification, etc.

[imladolen]

What was that door in Qarth?

Speaking of that door, what in the Seven Hells is "Valyrian STONE?"

Valyrian STEEL I know, but since when is there such a thing as Valyrian stone?????

[imladolen]

did I hear Jaqen H'ghar say "The Red God"?? so are they combining 2 gods into one now? maybe its just a personal nitpick but how can you do that? the gods in these books aren't some paper-doll gods that can be switched around with no accord, one of the reasons why we love these books so much is that GRRM has everything corned down, including the religious and spiritual side of the ASOIAF universe, each God/belief has their own system and philosophy behind it, to switch them around or combine them would negate the motivations and beliefs behind the followers of each respective God/system, thats like saying: 'nihilism and gnosticism are practically the same thing, no biggie...' it's just ridiculous,

Perhaps reading through the entire thread before you comment could help prevent you from looking like a fool as many others on this thread (and last weeks thread comments about the preview for this weeks episode) have already done. ((ETA: of course, I just went against my own statement here, since I have not finished the other pages on this thread, so for all I know, someone has already corrected you LOL, call me a hypocrite all ya want; but my point remains the same, this was brought up MANY times in the first couple of pages, and the posters were corrected each time))

Many times on the previous 6 pages of comments in this thread the issue you mention has been debunked.

Jaqen does mention the Red God in this scene in the books. IT IS KNOWN.

Edited April 30, 2012 by imlad

[Isabella Stark]

Interestingly, My book-reader friends and I thought this episode was great, but our friend who hasn't read the books just thought it was just meh and not much happened.

I'm concerned that Drogon is too puny and his fire breathing is too weak to do what he does in the House of the Undying.

Rockroi at # 368: good argument on the Jon volunteers scene. I still thought he was a little too whiny about it. Oh well. So was Luke Skywalked in Star Wars:)

It's not how I pictured North of the Wall, but Iceland looks amazing.

I seem to be the only person who thought Dany's Quarth dress was really ugly.

edited to fix a typo

Edited April 30, 2012 by Isabella Stark

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I don't think Quorin picking Jon was all that surprising in the books. In the books their mission was simply to scout, not "assassination" as in the TV show, and Quorin makes it clear that he wanted having a well trained Direwolf along would help them in their scouting. He takes Jon because Jon commands Ghost, but he was more probably more interested in having Ghost come than Jon.

[Ice Turtle]

So, when I wrote my original review, I stated that I hated that Jon pined for this assignment; that in the books Halfhand picked Jon... and then I remembered something; I remembered how completely and totaly lame it was that in the books that Half-hand picked Jon. And so I remoeved that from my original review because the scene in the show is, in my mind, a more realistic assessment of what would have happened.

So, let's back up a step. In the books, Jon Snow is about as action-packed as paste. He stands around and great, amazing things just happen to him through no action of his own. When he DOES do bad actions he is praised for it either by other characters (Jon, please don't go South to Robb... we all love you so much; don't desert us... I mean OTHER THAN THE FACT that you clearly are deserting us right now and that's a crime and all....) or the reader (Jon attacking Aliser Thorne to show he has a bad temper is basically an "Imperfection that serves to make Jon more perfect"). In a nutshell I have routinely lambasted Jon for being a glacier; a man who has great things happen to him but rarely takes action to acheive these great things. Off the top of my head Jon has a super-bad-ass wolf ™, a Valaryian Steel sword, a hot wilding chick, and becomes Lord Commander of the Watch for doing basically nothing (other than his job, which we are told will "win him no glories" but still somehow wins him a shit load of glories).

I really have a big problem with THAT Jon Snow.

This Jon Snow? This Jon Snow has some spunk. He has more drive. He takes more action. Classic point- two weeks ago when Jon follows Craster into the woods. In the book Jon is spared having to take any action that would look pro-active (and its for a reason: whevere a character takes an action they, by nature, piss off any reader who does not like that action; passive characters do not have that problem. This is a classic problem with Dany- a character who takes tones of chances and actions and is one of the most divisive characters in the books). Following Craster in the book would have been way, way way too much action for book Jon to be burdened with. But in the show, this JOn has to be more action-oreintated (time is against the show; stuff has to get done fast). So Jon following Craster is a fine moment.

Getting back to Halfhand, in the books when Quirion picks Jon its hard to crystalize just how horrible the scene is. Quiron Half-hand, a battle hardened ranger, talks to Jon Snow for 15 seconds before going into the tent and talking to Mormont. Jon rejoins then maybe 5 minutes later (maximum) and Qurion is asked to pick his ranging crew. Quirion chooses Jon Snow- a boy he literally just met 5 minutes before. So, yes, of course I will trust my life and the lives of my other men- many I have known for decades -to this boy who has been in the Watch for 8 months (and who, of course, deserted already). Serioulsy- why does Quiron choose Jon (especially when you consider that Jons mission grows EXPONENTIALLY and therefore Quiron must have had some idea of what the stress would be on Jon)? It makes literally no sense. He JUST MET THE BOY! But in the books its totally cool (because, again, Jon is rewarded opulantly for doing his duty- as I stated many times- Three Fingers Hobb has been cooking for years- where is his Valaryian Steel Butcher's Clever? How come Jon gets such a reward after being in the Watch for, what, 6 weeks? No sense. At all).

The fact that Quiron chooses Jon in the books is lame, but its very fast so the reader does not have time to dwell on just how unreaslistic and eye-rolling the scene is. Its over very quickly.

But in the show? Makes no snese for this guy- Half-hand - to choose Jon without a lobbying effort (basically the writers constructed the scene where it now makes sense because in the books it makes no sense). So, the writers do something that MArtin (lord praise his name) rarely does- the writers just cut to the chase. Jon Snow acts- he lobbies for this great oppertunity bbecause TAHT'S WHAT YOUNG MEN DO! Especially ones in military commands. It completely and totaly makes perfect sense for Jon to WANT to go on the mission. So, BOOM! Jon goes on the mission. It makes perfect sense; its absolutely clerar and does not seem artificial at all.

Now, I am not saying the scene "improves" on the book, but "Show Jon" would act this way because the show has invested this Jon with different traits. "Book Jon" would not act this way. He would wait for Half-hand to point at him and say "I choose the little kid I met 5 minutes ago for this death-defying mission." IN the show, Jon has to lobby for the position and his statements make perfects sense. I prefer the show's version and I understand why the book does not operate that way.

I've always got the feeling that he choose Jon only because he has Ghost. So it was Ghost he choose not Jon :)