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[Book Spoilers] EP 205 Discussion


Ran
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Off course your right in that aspect but you have to draw the line somehwere. Because if you draw that conclusion further you might also pose the question: Why are hour Stark or Lannister the leading houses in their area? Why not Cerwyn or Crakenhall? In that respect you might even ask why one person can rule over another? For the sake of the discussion there has to be a point that we acknowledge one person above all the other. At some point the kings of the seven kingdoms decided to bend the knee to one house or person. In this case it was house Targaryen. So the royal dynasty of the united seven kingdoms started then and there.

Actually I do wonder how these families not only exist in their lineage but stay in power for thousands of years. It seems unnatural but that's another topic.

People like to be ruled, nothing debateable about that. I just wonder what it is about the Targaryens. I'm sure the dragons were incredibly persuasive but they've been gone a long time. There's the idea that if it's not broke don't fix it but it's not like the seven are all pals united in love for the dragons. They all keep sharpening their knives remembering the old slights and grudges against each other.

It could very well be nothing more than the practicality of not wanting to go back to the old days of every kindgom warring with each other. It's just the Targaryens don't seem to have much of an impression on the culture of Westeros unless I'm wrong there and after outright rebellion against them I just wonder why the seven kingdoms turn around and treat their blood as so important after a mere few hundred years of their rule when there's so much remembering the time before they came.

I suppose it's also no suprise that the next royal family would be fine with the Targaryen blood being considered more kingly since they're the ones with the most of it left.

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Green dreams? Bran is more complete in the series than in the books, lol. Tywin was a bit soft IMO. Rude with his nephew(?) but he was too nice with Arya. And Loras not accusing Brienne? Strange.

Good episode though. Davos, Arya and Tyrion were great.

What is weird about Arya is she calls him "My Lord" and looks right at him, not like some gutter rat but like a noble. Maybe he sensed something. Loras not accusing Brienne is fine. To be honest it makes more sense however the way GRRM did it demonstrated Loras' impulsivity.

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I always thought it made perfect sense. It's not exactly like shadow babies are common even in Westeros. You walk into a guarded tent with three people in it and one of them is dead you figure one of the two alive is responisble.

That's the whole point of it anyways. Stannis is never suspected of being a kinslayer except by Brienne and Cat. He's about as well liked as Tyrion maybe less. If people started automatically assuming it's Stannis because he benefits no one would support him unless they're completely downplaying being a kinslayer on the show. Even Stannis doesn't think he's resposible. Or at least he fools himself into believing it.

Edited by bloodymime
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What is weird about Arya is she calls him "My Lord" and looks right at him, not like some gutter rat but like a noble. Maybe he sensed something.

That is what I noticed too. In the books, Bolton reminds Theon that he must talk like Reek. Perhaps they added a minor plot about Tywin discovering who Arya is, and then she will have even more reason to escape with Hot Pie and Gendry. It changes nothing later on, only Tywin learns that Arya is not in KL an little earlier.

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Suspecting Stannis is responsible for Renly's murder, doesn't mean Loras thinks he sent some demon into the tent, or even that Brienne and/or Catelyn are not involved. He knows that Stannis is the one who gained from him dying, that Stannis's mysterious sorceress threatened him just hours before and that someone killed him.

It's not unreasonable to assume that Stannis is behind what happened, be it through Catelyn/Brienne, a hired assassin or something else...

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Venting my likes and dislikes:

- Tywin having no idea that he sees a noble girl in front of him al least... Tywin, as cunning as he is, would have guessed that the girl is little Stark in hiding right away (although scene is well played by the actors)

- The ship with Meera and Jojen sailing away (Bran seeing green dream)

- Gwendoline Christie's initial reaction to Renly's death. Too quick, too obvious, overacting;

+ Brienne swearing loyalty to Cat. Well done, Michele Fairly is always amazing,

+ Jaqen. Exactly as I pictured him.

+ Arya reaction to the Tickler's death, assassin incoming, well done.

~ Davos leading the fleet? Not sure about that... How Stannis and Mellisandra are going to forgive him when the siege fails?

~ Not sure about Halfhand yet, he seems good, but had too little screen time so far.

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Its foreshadowing with the camera going to Jon when Sam mentions the First Men. Yes, we all know that Starks are from the First Men, but this seen is foreshadowing for viewers fo the show. I find these little nods to non-readers kind of neat, and I missed that one until someone mentioned it.

That's all I'm saying. Capice?

Nope

. Yeah i got the whole camera thing thank you. Correct me if i'm wrong but it seems to me that "foreshadowing" means presaging or announcing some future event or fact or something. Since Starks coming from the first Men is just a known fact i'm wondering what future event the camera going to Jon is supposed to announce. Unless you just mean it tells or remind viewers that Jon is a descendant of the first Men and in that case i misunderstood. But then it's not he same thing as the kind of foreshadowing Melisandre sees about Jon being AA.

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After seeing the scene where they put a lot of emphasis on Sam explaining three horn blasts means White Walkers, I am officially going to back the theory that this season will end with a scene on The Fist of the First Men, three horn blasts, and cut to black. That would be a perfect cliffhanger.

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I always thought it made perfect sense. It's not exactly like shadow babies are common even in Westeros. You walk into a guarded tent with three people in it and one of them is dead you figure one of the two alive is responisble.

That's the whole point of it anyways. Stannis is never suspected of being a kinslayer except by Brienne and Cat. He's about as well liked as Tyrion maybe less. If people started automatically assuming it's Stannis because he benefits no one would support him unless they're completely downplaying being a kinslayer on the show. Even Stannis doesn't think he's resposible. Or at least he fools himself into believing it.

Kinslaying hasn't even been mentioned. I doubt it's as big a deal in the Showverse.

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What does everyone think about the change in Xaro Xaroan Daxos? He has gone from a pedophile to a very ambitious man courting Daenerys. I think I like the TV Xaro better.

Pedophile? I remember him being gay but not that.... :S

This is a nitpick but I didn't like Quaithe's mask. And why did she appear to Ser Jorah first, and not Dany?

Agreed.

It seems the Tickler won't be dying in an inn via Sandor. I HOPE they keep Polliver for that scene! PLEASE!!!

Doubtful. I'm pretty sure he'll be next and that inn scene will be cut. :|

Okay, so "similarly" was a bit of a poor quaifier for me to use. The point I was making was that she asked for mercy, bent the knee, and ended-up a servant of House Stark, just like in the books. Quibbling about how she did it is ridiculous. They're adapting an entire series, of which she is not even a 2nd-tier character. We're lucky she even resembles book Osha in that they're both female and that she wasn't cut completely.

I disagree. The "how she did it" is very central to her character, her personality, etc. TV-Osha is just a very different character, for no reason that makes any kind of sense, and IMO an inferior one to GRRM's Osha. I know GRRM said he liked TV-Osha and all but I just don't know why, book-Osha is so much better. Also, I don't agree with the "we're just lucky to have her" mentality at all. With this logic, we're all just lucky to have an adaptation at all so let's not discuss or criticize anything, and this forum is useless. Meh.

<----------- Hates it when he is the only one posting and all his posts get stuck together. Grrrrrrrrr

Use the multiquote button dude. ;)

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- Tywin having no idea that he sees a noble girl in front of him al least... Tywin, as cunning as he is, would have guessed that the girl is little Stark in hiding right away (although scene is well played by the actors)

A few things. One, Tywin (and most of Westeros) is not on the look-out for Arya Stark; most of them all think that Arya is in the care, custody and control of Cersei. That is the story emanating from KL. Second, if the books laid the foundation for one thing its that Arya, even being highborn, is a plain looking girl. The fact that she is scruffy, dirty, beat up and probably malnourished adds to the "subterfuge." Most men- even men as cagey and observant as Tywin -"see what they expect to see."

- The ship with Meera and Jojen sailing away (Bran seeing green dream)

Given their roll in the story, they will not be missed (from a story point of view). Again, economy of characters- we do not have the time nor the resources to introduce two new characters and advance them into the story. Its not worthwhile (and full disclosure: I find Jojen insufferable). Bran's story is not remotely dependant on the Reeds and much (if not all) of their involvement can be distributed elsewhere.

Now, if they deep-six Howland Reed... it leaves one to wonder what will become of Jon Snow's parents...

- Gwendoline Christie's initial reaction to Renly's death. Too quick, too obvious, overacting;

Just "booooo." I completely disagree with this assessment. Good day to you, sir.

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Some stray thoughts:

  • Already halfway through this season! It's going to be a long year until next season after this one ends.
  • I love the fact that Harrenhal is the only place that's not moving in the credits. Says a lot about it.
  • Wow, no pointless sex scenes. No sex period!
  • Renly's death was as shocking and surprising here as in the book. I get why the show didn't waste time with the shadow baby first appearance at Storm's End, but why was it necessary to smuggle Melisandre to that barred cave when they could have just snuck by Renly's encampment?
  • I like this assertive and ambitious version of Margaery, who wants to be the Queen, not just a Queen. But I hope this doesn't mean we won't get to see the Queen of Thorns later on (next season?)
  • Heh! Tyrion likes Myrcella and "doesn't blame her at all" for her mother Cersei. Still, he sells her of to the Dornish.
  • Heh! Tyrion doesn't even think it's fun to torture Lancel.
  • I feel rather sorry for Tyrion getting a bad reputation among the people in King's Landing.
  • At the same time as I can feel for Theon not fitting in with the Ironborn, I also loathe him.
  • Asha (or Yara as she's called here) is quite unsympathetic. She's a bully and not at all the charismatic gal I got from the books. She's not even "tomboy pretty".
  • I see why they made Arya the cup-bearer for Tywin. A lot of possibilities to inform her and the viewers from his war councils.
  • OK, I get that the Tickler (that I mistook for Vargo Hoat last week) is a twisted man, but I think that Arya wasted a lot of her wishes about which people Jaqen should kill.
  • Nice shot of the Fist of the First Men and Ghost looking out over the Night's Watch camp.
  • Dany's dragon is adorable. And so is Doreah (whom I'm thankful is still alive in the show).
  • And Dany herself looks smokin' when she's cleaned up and nicely dressed.
  • Bran is and will be a good lord of Winterfell, despite falling for Theon's trap, as he says why their bannermen should protect them is they can't protect their bannermen.

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I just want to say thank you to the posters that have been rightfully arguing in favor of Stannis, keep up the good work. It's very nice to find a thread where I am not the only one, I only wish I had checked this thread sooner, so I could have added my voice to the conversation along with you guys. You guys covered everything very well though, so the only thing to do now is say good job.

Good to know there are more of us out there. LOL

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I wish they'd show the actual siege of Torhen's Square. Getting a bit sick of the series skipping most warfare battles and only hint about them in conversation/after maths.

I'm so happy there's no porn.

It wasn't shown in the book either.

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I'm not arguing with you because you're clearly right in that it mattered to them who had a drop of Targaryen blood in their veins but why the heck does a culture strong in thousands of years of their own history decide the Targaryens are the only royalty by divine right after a few hundred years. They don't even seem to have much of an impact on Westeros.

Everybody's still speaking the common tongue. Outside of KL and Dragonstone the Targaryens don't seem to have actually built anything. I've been told they're responsible for the opening up trade and the kingsroad. I don't know how accurate that is but at least the kingsroad makes sense since it comes out of KL but it's not even a clearly Valyrian road like the one Tyrion travels on in Dance, it's a freaking dirt road. I don't see people travelling down that dirt road and reflecting on how amazing the Targaryens are in their magnificence to create a dirt road where once only dirt stood.

Nearly all the great monuments and castles come from before the Targaryens came around and despite all the other mistakes Robb's being King of the North to me is making the most sense. Maybe it was the Greatjon pointing it out but someone certainly did, the dragons are gone, piss on them and lets get back to our ways.

It's only because they were the ones to unite the Seven Kingdoms into one nation.

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I'm very interested in the whole Who is king discussion going on here. But the thruth is that even all of the contenders (Stannis, Renly, Joffrey...) are usurpers. Dany still by all laws and regulations the rightfull queen of Westeros. The reason why Robert wanted all the Targs death is very important. Off course there is his personal vendetta against Rhaegar but he also has political motives. As long as there is a Targ alive his claim to the throne will never be absolute and he will be a usurper. The Targs were the first ruling dynasty of the 7 kingdoms and no revebellion, succesfull or not, will change that. A new dynasty can only begin when there is no Targ left anymore. It doesnt matter whether Robert had a blood connection with the Targs, as long as Dany is alive she will be the rightfull queen (and Viserys even before her). If all the houses and people in whole Westeros would kneel before Robert, they would all be traitors. The only other option would be when the heir of an house kneels before the usurper and therefore denounces his own claim to the throne. None of the Targs did this (Thruth be told, they might not have the chance since they were all killed).

Stannis is off course being hypocrite since he thinks that according to all laws and regulations he is the rightfull king while he should know that that claim can only be made by Dany. Only when she dies will he be the rightfull king. If Dany would give birth to a child, her claim would automatically pass on to that child ( off course whether she can have a baby is not sure).

The fact that Dany is still alive means that Stannis his claim is just as weak as Renly's. Renly has exactly the same amount of right to become king as Stannis. Off course this is just the pure theoretical part.

There is a huge difference between being the theoretical king and the actual king (the one that holds the power). But since Renly at the point had a far stronger force than Stannis, that makes him the more succesfull usurper of the two.

Im just trying to show that Stannis is a hypocrite. He is hiding behind rules and laws while those same rules and laws make him as much as a king as they do with Renly or Joffrey.

You're correct on a philosophical level, but an absent ruler can only retain their rule if their place is held by rock-solid supporters. No straight-up Targaryen has been seen in Westeros is nearly 2 decades, so their claim is moot, whether it is technically legal or not.

Richard the Lionheart didn't remain King of England while he gallivanted around the Middle East and France for a decade simply because it was his birthright. He remained King because William Marshall --1st Earl of Pembroke, Royal Regent, and widely-considered among the greatest knight to ever live -- held the center with backing from the King's mother Eleanor of Aquitaine, an irascible force in her own right. Otherwise, some ambitious man with a thimble-full of royal blood and a halfway decent army would've easily taken Richard's crown.

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Oh sure now that Renly is dead. Add a weather vane to your sigils.

Ummm.... no.... I was never, ever a supporter of Renly's claim. He was a traitor and a usurper and a shitty brother to boot, just like Robert was before him.

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After seeing the scene where they put a lot of emphasis on Sam explaining three horn blasts means White Walkers, I am officially going to back the theory that this season will end with a scene on The Fist of the First Men, three horn blasts, and cut to black. That would be a perfect cliffhanger.

Yep. I think this will be happening as well.

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