[Book Spoilers] EP 205 Discussion

[J_Crews]

But...that's all wrong. She's supposed to go with his brother.

I'm telling you, anybody who thinks Natalia Tena is just going to disappear from the show for multiple seasons is deluding themselves. The producers love her, GRRM loves her, and lots of fans love her. Having her go away would mean they might have to re-cast the part later. I know people who came to the show specifically because they loved her in the Harry Potter movies, and have since bought the 1st season DVD/Blurays and all the books. Osha is such a minor character that them planning for her to go with Bran is the only reason she didn't get cut from the show completely. They've been laying the groundwork for it since she showed-up last season.

[J_Crews]

Yes, though it is implied, rather than explicitly stated so someone missing it is understandable. An interesting side effect of only having one shadow baby is the loss of strength and life that Stannis seems to have from the effort. It is implied that the process is draining his life, making him older and more gaunt. Without that it will be interesting to see how they explain Stannis not using shadow babies against all his enemies.

I don't want to get into this debate all over again, because it's been done to death. Suffice to say, it was implied they were sleeping together in ACoK, but it was out-and-out stated as fact later. Just off the top of my head: Davos talks about Mel sharing his tent at night, to which Stannis says "She gives me comfort;" Mel tries to seduce Davos to make more shadowbabies, offering him great pleasure in return for his seed, because she dares not to drain Stannis anymore, for fear it'll kill him; and, Mel remarks in her own POV in ADwD that her bed has seen little use since Stannis marched away, leaving her behind at Castle Black. It doesn't get much more obvious than that without, literally, having a POV character barge into the room while they're in bed together nude.

[J_Crews]

Considering the first accepted king of a united England was Aethelstan in 924 and our current Queen Elizabeth II is still sitting on the throne in 2012, I think the English succession can absolutely be held as a good example of feudal succession. It's fairly easy to gauge the success of the English monarchy (and obviously the change to England and Wales, then Great Britain, then the United Kingdom of Great Britain and now, finally, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland) by the fact it's still there.

And add to that the, literally, thousands of lesser titles below the crown that passed from father to heir uneventfully with all vassals simply renewing their fealty oaths during that same 1000+ years, and it only strengthens the point.

[J_Crews]

In the books, all Renly has with him is his vanguard, so Loras manages to get to the bulk of the army before Stannis' men

He had all of his knights and freeriders with him, in addition to the vanguard. Basically, all of his mounted men. What was left back at Bitterbridge was his 60,000+ foot, the bulk of his army.

[LifeRuiner]

He had all of his knights and freeriders with him, in addition to the vanguard. Basically, all of his mounted men. What was left back at Bitterbridge was his 60,000+ foot, the bulk of his army.

You're right! I now found the passages in the book where it says that a ) Loras made off with a fifth of the knights from Bitterbridge and b ) most of the remaining knights and freeriders changed sides again during the battle of Blackwater when they saw Renly's "ghost" leading the vanguard.

Finn Jones (Loras) is supposed to be in six episodes this season. So far, he has been only in three. This makes Loras' appearance in the Blackwater episode quite likely.

Edited May 3, 2012 by LifeRuiner

[bloodymime]

I'm telling you, anybody who thinks Natalia Tena is just going to disappear from the show for multiple seasons is deluding themselves. The producers love her, GRRM loves her, and lots of fans love her. Having her go away would mean they might have to re-cast the part later. I know people who came to the show specifically because they loved her in the Harry Potter movies, and have since bought the 1st season DVD/Blurays and all the books. Osha is such a minor character that them planning for her to go with Bran is the only reason she didn't get cut from the show completely. They've been laying the groundwork for it since she showed-up last season.

Yep. I held out hope for the Reeds up until they gave Bran Jojens greendream. They obviously have the green light to make actual changes with Tywin replacing Bolton.

Besides which you see how much they cut of Arya's travels and you think they're really going to be showing three kids meandering their way to the Wall? Don't even see that much of it in the books. You have them at the castle when Jon shows up and the night in the cave with the Liddle and not much else that's going to make it to the show if that much.

They'd either need to find two more child actors that would basically tag along with Bran since he's the one now having the greendreams and seemingly more along in his wolf dreams than in the books or you send the the name actress along playing the part of the wildling that already has experience beyond the Wall cutting out two extra actors and keeping Natalia Tena on the show like you say. I like the Reeds and it'll be great if they pop up but I'm not holding my breath.

[J_Crews]

Yep. I held out hope for the Reeds up until they gave Bran Jojens greendream. They obviously have the green light to make actual changes with Tywin replacing Bolton.

Besides which you see how much they cut of Arya's travels and you think they're really going to be showing three kids meandering their way to the Wall? Don't even see that much of it in the books. You have them at the castle when Jon shows up and the night in the cave with the Liddle and not much else that's going to make it to the show if that much.

They'd either need to find two more child actors that would basically tag along with Bran since he's the one now having the greendreams and seemingly more along in his wolf dreams than in the books or you send the the name actress along playing the part of the wildling that already has experience beyond the Wall cutting out two extra actors and keeping Natalia Tena on the show like you say. I like the Reeds and it'll be great if they pop up but I'm not holding my breath.

Yep. Bran having the greendreams sealed it for me as well. Jojen is officially out now, ASAIC. Meera, maybe, but why bother with Osha there to hunt for them, etc.? The only sticky thing is how then will Bran hear the story of the Knight of the Laughing Tree?

I imagine Maester Luwin may tell that story, perhaps, at some point soon. He's a long-time Stark family adviser; likely, going back to the rule of Ned's father Lord Rickard. It would be only a minor, very believably change to have it that he was present with them at Harrenhal during the tourney of the false spring or that Ned confided certain family secrets to him later.

Edited May 4, 2012 by J.S. Crews

[bloodymime]

I don't expect the Knight of the Laughing Tree at all. They cut the Tower of Joy scene and how awesome would that have been. With so many plotlines to follow already they probably want to cut as much backstory out as possible and as the Knight story just creates questions instead of answering any I won't be surprised to never hear it on the show.

[Leuf]

It does though. It is said repeatedly in the books that Renly's ghost had a great effect on the troops, and iirc, this legend grows even bigger and more elaborate with time - Tyrion is annoyed with its popularity because he doesn't get credit for his part of the plan among the common folk at all. I'm not saying that Garlan wearing Renly's armor won the battle but it was a factor in the victory.

It makes for a great tale and fodder for the singers, but they would have easily won without it. It's another matter entirely to show up there outnumbered with the men tired from a long forced march and rely on half the opposing army to defect to your side to not get killed. It's not a move I can see Tywin making.

Also, there is an HBO featurette on the making of Renly's armor, so it has been established plenty. Your idea of the formerly Renly troops changing sides during the battle would actually make great sense. If Loras wears it (who else, really) and it's made out to be a big deal during the battle, it can explain how the Lannisters would owe the Tyrells in the show canon.

Okay, but it's not a different color than everyone else with big antlers on his helmet so he stands out at a distance, and you know, covers his face. It would just make more sense if we ever saw Renly with a helmet.

[J_Crews]

I don't expect the Knight of the Laughing Tree at all. They cut the Tower of Joy scene and how awesome would that have been. With so many plotlines to follow already they probably want to cut as much backstory out as possible and as the Knight story just creates questions instead of answering any I won't be surprised to never hear it on the show.

They'll have to talk about it eventually, if it means what most of us think it means, but you're right: it may be that talking about such now would just confuse people needlessly. It may just get introduced way down the line somewhere.

Edited May 4, 2012 by J.S. Crews

[The Last Dragon]

I don't expect the Knight of the Laughing Tree at all. They cut the Tower of Joy scene and how awesome would that have been. With so many plotlines to follow already they probably want to cut as much backstory out as possible and as the Knight story just creates questions instead of answering any I won't be surprised to never hear it on the show.

I totally understand they had to cut the Tower of Joy-dream. As i would understand if they cut the Harrenhal tourney-story. Both where one of my favorite parts of the book. But it is too confusing for TV-audience, who probably already have a hard time figuring out who-is-who-again every episode.

Anyhow, I'm glad i am not a producer on this show. It would give me sleepless nights figuring out how to put the whole Reed-Lyanna-Rhaegar-Jon theory inside the show. Let alone the whole Blackfyre-Bloodraven-Aegon story. Gives me headaches just thinking about it.

Edited May 4, 2012 by The Last Dragon

[Stargareyen]

Yep. I held out hope for the Reeds up until they gave Bran Jojens greendream. They obviously have the green light to make actual changes with Tywin replacing Bolton.

Besides which you see how much they cut of Arya's travels and you think they're really going to be showing three kids meandering their way to the Wall? Don't even see that much of it in the books. You have them at the castle when Jon shows up and the night in the cave with the Liddle and not much else that's going to make it to the show if that much.

They'd either need to find two more child actors that would basically tag along with Bran since he's the one now having the greendreams and seemingly more along in his wolf dreams than in the books or you send the the name actress along playing the part of the wildling that already has experience beyond the Wall cutting out two extra actors and keeping Natalia Tena on the show like you say. I like the Reeds and it'll be great if they pop up but I'm not holding my breath.

Reeds might have a bigger role in the latter books, so they should be included. After all, they are the only representation of Howland Reed (or crannogmen in general) in all 5 books together. Howland definitely has a mighty role in the rest of the books, it's important his children feature in early so that the viewers are aware of Reeds when Howland appears...

[bloodymime]

Well I certainly hope you're right and they make an appearance. I like the Reeds a lot.

[imladolen]

I have this personal experience (I'm going to share) almost everytime that I've been surprised of how good directed some episode of -insert series name here- was, It was directed by Tim VanPatten, last season he had the pilot (the second shoot, the first was with Taylor)

Actually, the original pilot (the one that HBO got to see but we didn't) was not directed by Alan Taylor. It was directed by Thomas McCarthy.

[imladolen]

I've always pictured Iron Islands ships as Viking long boats, not European style caravelles. They are supposed to be raiders, not travelers. Which is what made Euron different from the lot.

I think some people are forgetting the fact that it is entirely possible that the Iron Islanders would also CAPTURE ships. And when you capture a ship it only makes sense to use it.

Especially since the Iron Islands have so few ship building resources (ie: timber). I might hate the Ironborn with a passion, but they ain't stupid; they would capture as many ships as possible to use in further reaving and naval battles.

So yeah, they might generally build and use longships more than anything else, but to assume that those are the only ships they have is, well, intellectually retarded.

[The Monkey]

In the credits was listed Edward Tudor-Pole, better known as Tenpole Tudor, who was slated to be the new lead singer for Sex Pistols after Johnny Rotten left. Does anybody know who he played, so I can go back and find him? IMDB said he played "Protestor"...I don't remember any hippies in Harenhal, do you?

Little help?

He was the street preacher in King's Landing, the one who called Tyrion a demon monkey.

[Bloody-Nine]

I think some people are forgetting the fact that it is entirely possible that the Iron Islanders would also CAPTURE ships. And when you capture a ship it only makes sense to use it.

Especially since the Iron Islands have so few ship building resources (ie: timber). I might hate the Ironborn with a passion, but they ain't stupid; they would capture as many ships as possible to use in further reaving and naval battles.

So yeah, they might generally build and use longships more than anything else, but to assume that those are the only ships they have is, well, intellectually retarded.

But wasn't the Sea Bitch described as being a true, fine crafted, Ironborn-made Longship, and that's why Theon liked it so much? Bookwise, that's what happens, but I can't recall if that even happens in the show episode. I do see what you mean about capturing the ships though, but I'd figure those for more of storage tag-alongs, or fleet ships, rather than a flagship or the captain's ship.

[Ambeon]

Who in the fuck is the "3 eyed RAVEN"?!

Seven bloody hells is there anything D&D will keep from the books??

They can show Roz in all her unglory but not the Qartheen dress with 1 breast exposed!! WTF!?

It is so wrong to not have Roos at Harenhal!

The shadow should have sliced Renley almost in half in his armour and have his armour cut cleanly. Its was that way in the books to show the impossibility of Brienne being the killer.

Disappointed. There is NO reason for the changes. None!

To be fair, Roose Bolton is not suppose to be at Harrenhal yet, he comes there after Arya frees the northmen captives with the whole soup thing. She then becomes his cup bearer as a "reward" for the weasel soup.

As others have mentioned I actually liked the change of making Arya Tywins cup bearer instead. And I don't mind the interaction between the two either, Arya was talking back to Roose in the book too, without his permission infact, and he decides to "humor" her, and not punish her for it. And Roose I'd say is just as brutal as Tywin. Tywin does punish his enemies harshly, but I've not gotten the impression that he's a sadist, except maybe when Tyrion is concerned, but that too is mostly to teach him lessons. And punishing a 12 year old serving girl would seem rather silly, warning her to show respect like Roose did in the books seems more like an apt response in my opinion.

As for the change of Meera and Jojen not being there. It could be entirely possible that Bran will travel North of the wall with only Oosha and Hodor, Oosha taking the role of Meera/Jojen and Bran taking over Jojen's green dreams. I'm obviously hoping they show up in the next season though, which wouldn't surprise me, considering they'll have more time to explore the story with book 3 effectively being 20 episodes rather than 10.

Brienne is great, just perfect

I didn't like Jaquen after the first impression, but now I think he's spot on.

Arya at Harrenhal is some of my favourite stuff from aCoK and Maisie is fantastic, really makes the story come alive to me, despite there being some changes.

I agree with them killing of the tickler being a bit sad, because I love the scene with her and the hound in the inn when she kills him. But like some have mentioned the tickler

probably won't be remembered by non book readers by that time anyways, it makes a lot of sense to have her hate him enough to kill him already.

As for the two other deaths one of them will be Jaquen, but then getting changed to force him into helping her to save the northmen, the other .. who knows.

All in all, I was a bit dissapointed by the first few episodes, but 4 was amazing, this one was great, and I can only see them getting better from here on out.

So I'm stoked.

*EDIT*

Oh, and I don't much care for Yara/Asha either : / hope she gets better.

Edited May 5, 2012 by Ambeon

[J_Crews]

I agree with them killing of the tickler being a bit sad, because I love the scene with her and the hound in the inn when she kills him. But like some have mentioned the tickler

probably won't be remembered by non book readers by that time anyways, it makes a lot of sense to have her hate him enough to kill him already.

Plus, they would never be able to guarantee they'd get the same actor back either, meaning he'd have to be re-cast and that would cause even more confusion.

[EgoistMusketeer]

Are people seriously complaining about the change from crow to raven? Wot?

Anyway, raven does have a significance.... Bloodraven. So there!

Only if we get a dunk and egg HBO series.. and we wont. otherwise its a very significant clue thats thrown out the window just because the writers are being writers and think they can "jazz" up the source material