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[Book Spoilers] EP 206 Discussion


Ran
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"...No it's not brilliant. And it makes zero sense. What would Ramsay be doing in the Iron Islands? Also, why would the other Ironborn accept him as their own, as if they'd known him for a long while? Do you people actually think these things through or... o_O"

Agreed... that is not an arc that needs to have a character like Dag replace Ramsay, or have their roles merged into some synergistic new character plotline.

What. I just... ah.... I just can't believe there are people like that. Wow. Inconsistent characters, plot holes, gratuitous sex and lazy writing > ASoIaF. Okay...

I disagree that the storyline on the show is surpassing GRRM's story, but this is TV not the books. We dont have thousands upon thousands of pages to have a story depict every single facet of ASOIAF. We have minutes/hours to try and show some sort of semblance to the story GRRM told. Inconsistent characters are only because on screen certain things must be changed to carry the story. Plot holes are inevitable because there is just no realistic way to follow the true story in such a small amount of time. Gratuitous sex is fine with me. Lazy writing I disagree with, its more just bad writing on some fronts. They tried to do something and failed.

"Why do you post here? So you can complain about complaints? Get over it! IT'S JUST A MESSAGE BOARD! Get over it and get a girlfriend."

Theres a difference between critique in a respectful manner and nitpicking in a disputatious manner. Compare the difference between Tywin diligently explaining his beliefs and Dany on her childish Targ rant whining and stomping all the way. There are ways of getting a point across without being so combative. But I dont hate for that. Fact is that its the love of the story that causes us to be combative. Sometimes its hard to see that from the outside. We are so tied to the story that we just get defensive. Bottom line is we need the aggressive angry rants as much as the calm & respectful synopsis of each episode. I, myself, channel all that rage towards GRRM saying our next book will be at least 2-3 yrs away, wtf man.

Erm, what? You didn't notice the zombie mob, the arm flying off and the guts spilling out? I didn't notice it on a re-watch or anything, I only saw the episode once and I'm not the most acutely observant of watchers. It was right there.

The arm flying was.. interesting... it did seem more like they chewed thru the guy instead of tearing him apart. That really didnt bother me it just made it more evident how vicious the murder was, but I guess they felt the need to exaggerate the severity.

Rockroi already explained why the scene was stupid. Basically, if Jon meant to spare her (and we know he did, he didn't "miss" that sword swing), why was he chasing her? He wasn't going to kill her. He wasn't going to follow her all the way to the wildling camp. He wasn't going to take her back as prisoner to Qhorin, since Qhorin would have killed her. Even if you want to make Jon an indecisive moron (which is a crappy thing to do to the character), the scene still doesn't make sense.

Is it really that crappy? Given his eventual end-result as head of the NW I think it really enhances how controversial his being the head of the NW was. He did some stupid ish, people didnt exactly consider him the epitome of a leader. And he missed her thinking okay heres my moment for a love connection to discuss what to do from here and she split. I think the books version of the events worked better personally, but for what they chose to do it isnt that surprising. He spared her and she ran away so he wanted to chase her so that his act of 'indiscretion and mercy' didnt come back to haunt him.

Why would I trust them when I've found their writing to be lamentable as far as these things are concerned? I'm only pessimistic because they keep making stupid decisions.

I just think the problem is saying hey take a 100 hour story and tell it in 9 hours. Things need to be changed to make it work on-screen. People always use LOTR as a reference to this book and show. LOTR was ridiculously successful as a movie trilogy and there were so many changes to the story to fit the timeline and carry a certain time progression standard and atmosphere to the depiction. If LOTR stayed true to the storyline of the books I sincerely doubt the success wouldve been as great. The writing isnt lamentable.. the decisions arent stupid... we have unlimited time on here to critique and say how things should be but with a time restraint the writers do not have this luxury while trying to build a world for us to attach ourselves to... coming attractions for the wonderful (sarcsasm) episode of Veep that is an hour away take away from much needed time that could be used to tell the story... It would be nice as well to have the show start on time those extra minutes would surely benefit the writers..

Sure, I'm a purist. I want to watch an adaptation of the novels I loved, not a bastardized, badly written fanfiction. I don't hate every single change, just the ones they do poorly. It just happens that this episode had a fuckton of those.

Ironic the mention of bastardizing with reference to Jon Snow. I will have to concede the point that Jon Snows storyline seems to be taking the biggest hit due to time constraints. I wouldnt say this is a degraded version of the books equivalent to a badly written fanfiction though, that seems somewhat extreme. We are just dealing with a world that is far too vast to be conveyed in any reasonable manner within 10 (so not 1 full hour) episodes. HBO is shooting themselves in their respective feet with this as far as i am concerned. This show has the potential to carry the channel and most of television for years to come. Ive seen so many shows have 20+ 1 hour episodes in a season that shouldnt have even been able to make more than 5 episodes. Budgetary concerns need to be addressed and it needs to be that we can have more time to tell this story. Given the amount of time we are allowed there is no realistic way of telling this story without rushing certain aspects, tweaking certain elements to accommodate the limited timeframe. Blame HBO not the writers.

Try going out to Vegas for a weekend for crazy parties and to experience everything you never experienced before. Then try to tell the 72 hour story (Fri thru Sun) in 50 minutes while hitting every key moment of the experience. Kinda hard to do that isnt it? In essence, a season is equal to a visual synopsis of each book. It hits the key points but unfortunately, for the sake of time, many aspects go unnoticed or unmentioned.

Edited by Dio Forel
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One thing I don't understand- the Tyrell tiny army :shocked: ? Littlefinger says its the largest in the realm, after the Starks and Lannisters- suggesting they have less than 20,000 men? Is there a point to that?

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Now I'm rambling but i want to make it clear that I am not actually trashing the show. On it's own it is great, but as a person who was seriously looking forward to seeing a great series of books turned into a tv show I was and am continually disappointed to find out that I am instead watching a cheap version of fanfiction(it is essentially somebody else's rewrite) even though they have kept the main plot points I get the feeling that they'll continue to skip over some great subplots.

A CHEAP version of fanfiction? You call budget of 50-60 millions of dollars CHEAP? If it is a fanfiction, it's a damn expensive fanfiction.

And about the second point - that seems to be the problem for many readers of ASOIAF. Seems like they expected to get a filmed version of the books or even felt that produsers are somehow obliged to follow the books exacly because this is what readers wanted. But the thing is that HBO is not doing GoT only for people who have read the whole book series but also to people like me who have NOT read those books. So they make choices that makes it easier for us to follow plot without needing to read those books or go to internet and check who was who ect. For example Tickler and his death in the last episode; people here were right pointing out that nobody of non-readers would remember him anymore in the next season and so his death would mean nothing to us or at least not so much as it means for readers.

So, maybe it is a fanfiction but it's a damn good fanfiction. And even though I'll probably get stoned for this I'll say it anyways... I'd choose GoT over the books anyday. I do understand that people love those books but personally I'm just happy that series doesn't follow them in everything. Otherwise one season would last for like 50 episodes instead of 9-10. Who would watch that?

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In the show most of Tyrell's bannermen joined Stannis after Renly's death, unlike in the book.

I'm wondering about that... All the lords of the Reach *are* Tyrell vassals, it's not like they can switch allegiances without batting an eye. The haste with witch Loras and Margaery left implied they feared for their lives. From their own bannermen? Why? That whole plot point I don't quite understand.

And if Tyrell army is so weak compared to the Baratheon army, why would Blackwater turn out the way it probably will?

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I'm wondering about that... All the lords of the Reach *are* Tyrell vassals, it's not like they can switch allegiances without batting an eye. The haste with witch Loras and Margaery left implied they feared for their lives. From their own bannermen? Why? That whole plot point I don't quite understand.

And if Tyrell army is so weak compared to the Baratheon army, why would Blackwater turn out the way it probably will?

Don´t expect the show to make sense, you will only get disappointed

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It's been said a few times that Luck was cancelled due to a third horse dying. Yes, that's what HBO said. I'm sure they were saddened by this, and it was the final straw. However, here is the reason Luck was cancelled. (And some nice news for us)

http://paper.li/GameOfThrones

Yeah quite independent of GOT Luck's ratings were down and it did not look like a 3rd season for it.

It was done well but David Milch really only seemed to have enough material for a finite story, I could see it was being stretched by the semi-mob gambling angle but that looked like it could last only so long.

I thought Milch's Deadwood was dynamite for two seasons, but once again ... third season started to wander story wise... the cast remained great ... I really don't think Milch had enough story for those two closing movies that never got made.

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I'm definitely on the "one-of-the-best-episodes-so-far" camp.

The sack of Winterfell was really heartbreaking. The contrast of Bran's reactions at the begining when Theon enters his room and during the beheading of Ser Rodrick was a nice touch. The kid is doing a fine acting job. And Theon - there was definitely an "Anakyn Skywalker"-moment there. The expression on his face after he kicks off the head from the body says clearly "There is no turning back". I've actually never liked Theon, but love the drama of his character.

Btw, am I the only one who is wondering where Summer is, when Theon comes into Bran's room? They didn't exclusively emphasized in the show that the wolves are held captive in the God's wood, did they?

Those wide shots in the second season of the show are really great. Love the scenes north of the Wall. Love to see Ghost again. Qhorin was not exactly how I imagined him and I have a problem with the fact, that Jon was the one who wanted to join Qhorin's group in the show. IIRC Qhorin took the initiative in the books. But I could live with that. Hopefully they will go somewhere with those changes. I can't understand all the complaining about the Jon/Ygritte - scenes. Yes, there are some changes, but I am still positive and prefer to wait and see the purpose of all this. I got from the scene that Jon was hesitating to kill Ygritte (as in the books). I think it was a last-minute decision to cut the rock instead of Ygritte's head, when he realized he cannot kill a woman. But then he panicked and started chasing her without thinking. It was just some rush panicking-reaction imo. I still wonder about the purpose of this change - perhaps it is a setup for the Jon-Ygritte relationship. I just hope they won't change Jon's character in some drastic way. I'm ok with the Jon-scenes so far. The actress playing Ygritte is great and the chemistry between them works so far. I am still convinced that Jon won't go straight to the wildlings-camp without having killed Qhorin.

The Arya/Tywin scenes are superb. Those two could really have a show on their own and no one would complain abot that. I am not a Lannister fan (except for Tyrion and a bit of Jaime) so even if Tywin is represented more humanly in the show, I don't like him. Charles Dance is doing a great job though. Don't mind the dialog between him and Arya, don't mind even the hiding game with LF. My only complaint is that we see too much LF and not enough Varys. Want more Varys! Stealing the letter gave Arya a good reason to choose the second death. It was more plausible for the non-book readers that way imo.

The riot scene in KL was very intense. I don't mind the lack of hourses. The anger of the crowd, the panick of the nobles - I just bought it. My only complaint was that Joff got slapped only once.

Dany's scenes were at least interesting for me as always. I enjoyed how condescendig the spice merchant was. And the whole "I will burn this and that... " is really starting to go on my nerves. The stealing of the dragons didn't wake any emotions. We all know she is going to have her dragons back at the House of Undying. I still have some hope for the prophesies left.

Robb, oh Robb, you trully are a King! I hate that the show made Robb such a lovable character. I liked him in the books, but the second season showed him in a really good light. Now I like him even more in the show. I have no doubts that Jane is the beautiful nurse. Still not sure what the purpose of the whole hiding of her personality is. I gues we'll have to wait and see.

Imho this episode was really dynamic, dramatic, showed some very important moments and despite all the changes from the series, it was really great.

Totally agree about the nurse being Jane Westerling, I would imagine she is concealing her identity as she is from a Lannister bannerman house in the northern army, plus a noblewoman at that, it would enable her to interact amongst the troops a lot more. Also, it creates a sense of intrigue for her character to help the audience connect with her, which is needed given her importance in the storyline.

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I've seen numerous comments regarding the death of the High Septon on multiple fan and other sites reviewing the episode, and I've been wanting to set the record straight on his death. People have called the crowd zombies and really said a lot of negative things about that scene, but I was fairly certain that happened to him in the book, but it has taken me this long to get my hands on my copy.

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion Page 599

(Jacelyn Bywater delivers the death toll to Tyrion)

The list of the slain was topped by the High Septon, ripped apart as he squealed to his gods for mercy. Starving men take a hard view of priests too fat to walk, Tyrion reflected.

I know the scene was pretty jarring, and I am not sure how a crowd could rip someone's limbs off with their bare hands, but it did come from the book.

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I've seen numerous comments regarding the death of the High Septon on multiple fan and other sites reviewing the episode, and I've been wanting to set the record straight on his death. People have called the crowd zombies and really said a lot of negative things about that scene, but I was fairly certain that happened to him in the book, but it has taken me this long to get my hands on my copy.

A Clash of Kings - Tyrion Page 599

(Jacelyn Bywater delivers the death toll to Tyrion)

The list of the slain was topped by the High Septon, ripped apart as he squealed to his gods for mercy. Starving men take a hard view of priests too fat to walk, Tyrion reflected.

I know the scene was pretty jarring, and I am not sure how a crowd could rip someone's limbs off with their bare hands, but it did come from the book.

I was more surprised by how quickly they managed to rip his arm off. It's like he kinda fell/was carried to the ground and in the next two seconds some guy was brandishing his arm as a trophy.

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A bunch of people have posed the question about how Rob & Co. could know that Rodrick was killed, since Luwin sent the raven before the execution.

You seem to forget that after the execution, Theon told Luwin to send ravens out to inform people that he's taken Winterfell.

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With SOS across 2 seasons it's going to seem weird for Bran's travel from Winterfell to the wall to take 2-3 seasons after the viewers are used to characters moving from any part of the kingdoms to another in a single episode.

I guess he'll have a lot less screen time over the next few seasons anyway, doesn't get much book either.

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I don't get why they went for a 10 episode format. The show would've benefited immensely from a 12 episode format.

D&D have said on more than one occasion that they would love to have more episodes per season from a storytelling standpoint (although 10 episodes was about right for S1, I think), but that they are physically unable to produce more than 10 episodes per year. This is understandable given the rather extreme variety of locations, and the enormous scope of the production (horses, costumes, extras, and at least this season the promise of a rather epic battle sequence).

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Yep. 10 episodes is literally all they can manage without using a lot more resources. They're already running two units at the same time for a great part of the time.

I'm trying to get an interview setup with some production people who will, I think, help illuminate that aspect of the show and give it context.

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Oh okay I thought this was a purely arbitrary decision from the execs. It's understandable, considering how period pieces like this must be insanely expensive compared to your average 12 season shows (dexter, breaking bad or mad men for instance, not that these shows have bad production values, on the contrary, but yeah probably way less expensive)

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