[Book Spoilers] EP 207 Discussion

[legba11]

Versi, are you saying Dagmer brought the walnuts there from elsewhere on the trail? Because (while set up very poorly), that would make 100x more sense than anything else I've come up with.

[Reposado]

They should have added in that the Millers boys could possibly have been Theon's. For me, that's the point Theon really changes in the books.

wait, this was not a point in the books, unless theon fathered them when he was 9 and 11ish

[kkae]

So, if a message board can include complains, I can voice how stupid I think it is that people bitch about minor plot points in an adaptation. Get over it.

And you should get over others complaining.

This vas very good episode although I don't like of the many changes. Jon/Ygritte thing is quite different perhaps I'm little annoyed but doesn't really bother me.

I like Arya/Tywin dynamic although it starting to wear out. Shame that Stannis hasn't seen much screen time.

[Thunderfist]

wait, this was not a point in the books, unless theon fathered them when he was 9 and 11ish

I´m pretty sure that Theon reflects about having slept with the Millers wife on several occasions and that the children might be his. I don´t have my book here atm but perhaps someone could find that passage

[Reposado]

However, here is what I want to know: All the things they are skipping, it makes me wonder if those elements will not be important in the series, and they know that. For instance: The boys hiding in the Winterfell crypts (and removing the swords), Jon's connection with Ghost, Jaime's redemption, etc.

In other words, are we finding out now that certain things I thought would be important in Books 6/7 are just throw-away details? I mean, I like the show, but compared to the books, it's just "eh" for me. Worth an hour of my time for sure, best show on TV for sure and I hope it's renewed for all 7-8 seasons--but I kinda feel like some things from future books are being spoiled by the way they are playing out the show.

I worry about this too. Especially when whole characters are written out. Guess Shireen never becomes important. Can't wait till uproar when season 6 leaves out Young Griff entirely.

But Jamie's redemption is still happening. It doesn't really start till book 3. Doesn't really start until he loses his hand. I have faith in that one.

I´m pretty sure that Theon reflects about having slept with the Millers wife on several occasions and that the children might be his. I don´t have my book here atm but perhaps someone could find that passage

I know he mentions sleeping with her, that is how he knows the kids are of the right age. But the ages don't work. Book theon is 9 years older than book bran. 13 years older than book rickon. which is biologically possible, but doubt he had started sleeping with married women at the time

Edited May 14, 2012 by BaelorBreakspear

[Arataniello]

Versi, are you saying Dagmer brought the walnuts there from elsewhere on the trail? Because (while set up very poorly), that would make 100x more sense than anything else I've come up with.

This is what I assumed happened. When Bran and Co were talking about the farm earlier in the episode, they explicitly said something about "if we go there, the occupants could be questioned if Theon follows us".

[Versiroth]

You win!

I guess that did sound kind of contradictory, but I think the main difference is, I can see why most changes are made and even the one's that I've disliked (like Cersei being made to look like a victim of her son) will likely figure into a future scene as well. I actually like most changes (Dany and Jon) just fine because I understand that their stories needed more filler. Some here seem to dislike anything that was changed regardless if it added to the story or not. They seem to just want a straight adaptation, which again, isn't really possible for more reasons than one.

[Evamitchelle]

On a positive note, LF is not teleporting around Westeros anymore (yay !) and Ros is still missing in action for the third episode in a row ( double yay !).

And I think I'm actually going to miss the Spice King.

[awesome possum]

Why can't 'Dagmer' be Ramsay? There has been no confirmation that he is actually ironborn - he never interacts with any of Theon's other men, he's adopted the role of the devil on Theon's shoulder, and it's very plausible that Roose (who knew Theon was being sent back to Pyke and wanted to know what went down) sent someone to follow Theon closely.

Obviously the Dagmer described in the books could never be Ramsay but Dagmer in the show could easily be Ramsay. It's not stupid, hon.

Unless Roose fathered this version of Dagsay when he was 10 (and that's being generous with the age difference), then it's stupid.

So, if a message board can include complains, I can voice how stupid I think it is that people bitch about minor plot points in an adaptation. Get over it.

You can voice whatever you want. That's the joy of the internet.

And yet, you and people like you voicing how stupid you think it is that people would bitch about minor plot points (are you new to the internet?) ... well, those are the posts that seem whiny and childish and unnecessary. Bitching about minor plot points is still talking about the show.

Bitching about people bitching is just being a bitch.

[Greyjoy67]

Why would Roose's bastard son be played by a guy older than Roose himself? <_<

Minor thing here but... I'd say Dagmer looks in his late 30s, Roose looks in his early 50s. It's a little farfetched maybe, but still... Roose looks older in the show.

[Thunderfist]

I guess that did sound kind of contradictory, but I think the main difference is, I can see why most changes are made and even the one's that I've disliked (like Cersei being made to look like a victim of her son) will likely figure into a future scene as well. I actually like most changes (Dany and Jon) just fine because I understand that their stories needed more filler. Some here seem to dislike anything that was changed regardless if it added to the story or not. They seem to just want a straight adaptation, which again, isn't really possible for more reasons than one.

I still haven´t seen anyone who wants a straight adaptation along the lines of "well they really should hire 200.000 extras for the Battle of the Blackwater otherwise that episode will suck". What most "purists" seem to be saying is that there are some changes that they don´t enjoy for whatever reasons. Some people here seem to like the majority of the changes made, some others seem to dislike most of them. Each opinion is equally valid

[CrypticWeirwood]

It is COMPLETELY WRONG for cersei to hate joffrey and express that to Tyrion.

She very most certainly did no such thing. You’re just making it up.

[Mista C]

Best Part of This Episode: The pullaway shot of Harrenahll... man did that place look huge and nasty.

[Kaitscralt]

My only complaint about the series is how radically it has changed my perception of this forum and the members on it. I can't believe how many 'experts' are complaining about things that were explained right on the show. "Wahh, wahh, Catelyn has no reason to free Jaime without hearing of Bran and Rickon." Did you people even watch the episode?

Get the definition of adaptation tattooed on the back of your hands so you can read it while you type.

[CrypticWeirwood]

More and more scenes showing that Dany isn't happy to loose her dragons?

Never happened. It will take Prince Quentyn to loose her dragons and die in the act, and that’s a long, long, long ways off yet.

I don’t understand why people make things up about what they’re seeing. Or not seeing, as the case may be.

[Thunderfist]

My only complaint about the series is how radically it has changed my perception of this forum and the members on it. I can't believe how many 'experts' are complaining about things that were explained right on the show. "Wahh, wahh, Catelyn has no reason to free Jaime without hearing of Bran and Rickon." Did you people even watch the episode?

Get the definition of adaptation tattooed on the back of your hands so you can read it while you type.

Adaptation: the process in which a tv-show based on a series of books turns into something utterly unreckognizable, where change is made for the sake of change alone, where the opportunity to show nude women is never missed and where the characters involved end up a complete 180 from what they were like in the original text

Is that about right?

[dtones520]

Unless Roose fathered this version of Dagsay when he was 10 (and that's being generous with the age difference), then it's stupid.

You can voice whatever you want. That's the joy of the internet.

And yet, you and people like you voicing how stupid you think it is that people would bitch about minor plot points (are you new to the internet?) ... well, those are the posts that seem whiny and childish and unnecessary. Bitching about minor plot points is still talking about the show.

Bitching about people bitching is just being a bitch.

What bothers me is that people are shocked that an adaptation of a book made changes from the source material. I don't care about people talking about it, but the people who are acting apalled or shocked over it is a bit much.

[Versiroth]

I still haven´t seen anyone who wants a straight adaptation along the lines of "well they really should hire 200.000 extras for the Battle of the Blackwater otherwise that episode will suck". What most "purists" seem to be saying is that there are some changes that they don´t enjoy for whatever reasons. Some people here seem to like the majority of the changes made, some others seem to dislike most of them. Each opinion is equally valid

That's not the impression I get when I read comments like "Did anything in this episode actually happen in the book?!?". That, to me, says that the person wants things to mimic the book even at the cost of a slow and boring plot. If they didn't do something with Dany and Jon differently than what happened in the books, they might as well just cut them entirely. The books are amazing. WAY better than the show. With that said, a lot of the things in the books just do not work in a TV series where time is not unlimited. And even if this season was 20 episodes, they still couldn't show 10 scenes with John doing little more than marching through the snow. People would stop watching. I even saw one person say they've given up on the show thanks to the changes.... really? Not one single change has changed anything significant at this point. I'd understand if they killed off a main character, like Tyrion or something, but people complaining because Dany's Handmaidens died? What did they do in the books that was so important? It's things like that that people are going overboard about. I can't think of one change that has significantly changed the course of the series. Please enlighten me if I missed it.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Versiroth

[Bride of Winter]

I just had a thought - who is Karstark going to kill now?

he was in a perfect position to kill Alton (being a distant relative of the Lannisters) but that's out the window.

[Mummer's wind]

The lack of Tyron's chain is disconcerting. I thought it was a really nice culmination of his story in CoK, showing that his mind really was his greatest weapon. Part of its impact was the lead-up to the chain's reveal, so I'm thinking there's probably no way they'll include it this season. CGI-ing a bunch of burning ship-hulks piled against a chain and being pushed by a river's current is probably a little bit outside the budgetary scope of this adaptation.

Also, there's no way that Dagmer *is* Ramsay ... that barely makes sense ... but he sure is playing Ramsay's devil-on-Theon's-shoulder role thus far this season. He seems to be able to control him by giving him an expression that says "That's not Ironborn tough!"

I just had a thought - who is Karstark going to kill now?

he was in a perfect position to kill Alton (being a distant relative of the Lannisters) but that's out the window.

I'm guessing they'll drop that little thread. They've had to rush the Rob's camp story a little bit (case in point, Jaime being sprung now) and I suspect they included Karstark as both an impetus for freeing the Kingslayer and as a bit of a nod to book-readers.

Edited May 14, 2012 by Mummer's wind