[Book Spoilers] "Anyone can be killed..."

[7V3N]

You know what wierd. When Arya lies to Tywin about her identity everyone says its understandable. Yet if Talisa/Jeyne (maybe I'm wrong and she is telling the truth) lies to Robb everyone says its stupid. Kind of double standard.

It's different. Robb was in the West. Tywin was not in the North. Robb expects the people he encounters to be from the West, while Tywin doesn't expect many Northerners in the Riverlands. People I mean, not soldiers. IF Talisa/Jeyne said she was a Westerner, Robb would see her as just another, while Arya stands out to Tywin because of the lack of Northerners South of the Neck.

[Strider]

I loved the scene and disagree almost completely with those who think it was out of character for Tywin to allow Arya's implied threat to go unpunished. Quite the contrary. It's precisely because Tywin is so confident in his power and position that he can ignore Arya's comment. A weaker person might have felt offended, but Tywin is beyond such pettiness (except, perhaps, where it concerns Tyrion).

I suspect that he admired Ayra's spunk, especially after the display of weakness by his kinsman. Tywin is powerful enough to respect strength and courage in others. Arya is no threat to him. Having winkled out from her that she is a Northerner, he might be a bit more on his guard, not because he fears for his safety but in order to protect against any spying. Indeed, it probably amuses him to keep a spunky Northerner kid around, if only to remind himself of the quality of his enemies. He will not underestimate them again.

I like the suggestion that Arya's remark may in fact be the seed for the idea of the Red Wedding. One more unintended consequence in a world of unintended consequences.

[Ser Greguh]

Wait, people are actually expecting that Tywin Freaking Lannister, the richest, most powerful Lord in the Seven Kingdoms, to interpret the statement of "anyone can be killed" as a threat? The man is arrogance personified. The thought that a lowly cupbearer is even capable of threatening him would never even occur to him.

It was a fantastic scene. It speaks to Arya's state of mind, shows Tywin's pragmatism, and sets up an epic moment a few episodes down the road when Tywin learns that Arya escaped and puts it together.

[jarl the climber]

What would he do if he did find out she was Arya? Send her to Robb and Cat with a peace offer or marry her to Tommen? Or something else?

[legba11]

What exactly should Tywin do in that situation? What kind of fool would he look like if he acknowledges a threat from a little girl? He would lose face if he reacted to her at all, which is why he just stared back then dismissed her. On a secondary note, he held her up as how Lorch's men are bunch of fools. If it turns out, it was a mistake to have taken her in, he would look twice the fool he just made them out to be.

The mighty Tywin Lannister being threatened by a little servant girl is a much more dangerous thing to have public than just ignoring the comment.

Small men in power (Joffery/ Cersei) reacted harshly to every small thing, truly powerful men (Tywin/Tyrion/Robb) know when its important to flex their muscle.

[The Monkey]

Great scene! My two favourite characters and my two favourite actors in the same scene. That stare-down was awesome beyond words.

[summer_stark]

I liked the TV scene. It was fun to watch.

But when you think about it, it wasn't right. In the books, the whole theme of the Harrenhal chapters was: constant fear of getting killed for no reason at all. Just looking at the wrong person at the wrong time could be fatal. And the only way to survive is to not be noticed. With so many lunatics amongst the Mountain's men, you can never be sure that one of them suddenly gets the urge to torture or kill you. So Gendry and Arya hang low. They try to be invisible. The Tywin/Arya scene completely removes that theme, imho.

Another weird effect is this. For Tywin Lannister, the war with Rob Stark is his prime concern. His second concern is getting his son Jaime back. One of the main methods to get him back would have been to trade Jaime for one or more Starks. They got Sansa, but Arya is missing. He is aware of that. Tyrion and a few others have been discussing such a trade. If only they had Ayra. And suddenly, in front of Tywin is a group of refugees/travelers known to be coming from King's Landing, with a girl from the North who tries to hide her own identity ? That should ring bells inside Tywin's head immediately. The first thing he would do is sent Ayra to the Tickler and torture her to get her real name out. For me, this would be the logical followup of the Tywin/Arya scene. But that won't be happening in the tv-series.

This is one of the small details why I think you can't just add or change small things from the books. Martin took years to write a book. I am sure he thought of the consistency of every scene (knowingly, or maybe even, after all these years, unconsciously).

Interesting perspective -- I could see that -- but I don't think we know whether he knows that they don't have Arya -- he didn't in episode 1, and I believe Tyrion said he hadn't been in touch w/Tywin in awhile -- and we know Cersei's not going to tell him.

That said, I think it is a good point. And it definitely brings up the point that having them get captured as people from KL bound for the Wall, makes their back stories much more important, especially since she couldn't have gone to the wall. That's an interesting flaw that I didn't notice until you pointed it out. I'll let it slide b/c it doesn't seem like they are the only prisoners, and it's not like they're keeping track of who is from where -- but still, it does beg the question.

[lyvyathan]

While I love these two actors, I thought the scene was terrible and blatantly insulting to the spirit of Martin's work. Changing things from the books is fine, altering characters and plots can be necessary for the sake of the show, but a ridiculous scene like this goes against the basic, core nature of these stories.

Everyone in the room would have felt that tension. A peasant girl just lied to the Lord of Casterly Rock, revealed she was actually from the North, and then stared him down. There was, as you said,

which was obvious to all of us watching, and certainly would have been apparent to Lord Tywin- and his reaction to that is to put her in charge of what he drinks. Absurd. This felt like something that belonges in a summer blockbuster, not a brutally honest story that gives us Ned's death and the Red Wedding.

I often find myself drawing comparisons between Game of Thrones and The Wire, because The Wire is one of the few shows I've ever seen on television that approaches the level of complexity and intelligence found in the ASOIAF novels. In one episode of The Wire, a leading drug dealer played by the famous and charismatic rapper Method Man and his people are meeting with another criminal to make a business deal. Method Man's character starts giving a dramatic speech about how all the other players in the drug game in town have fallen, except for him. He's got a pistol in his hand with all eyes are focused on him, the biggest man in the room, saying that now it is HIS time, and is halfway through a sentence when one of his subordinates pulls out a gun and blows a hole through his skull.

ASOIAF has always been honest. It isn't the place where children get to make cool speeches and the whole room sits back and says "Damn, that was dramatic, that little kid sure is a badass." Anyone can be killed. And when you're a peasant lying to, staring down, and threatening Lord Tywin Lannister, Shield of Lannisport and Warden of the West, you're killed pretty quickly.

I hear what you are saying and in part I agree with it. It does seem foolish (and not in character) for Tywin to have Arya as his cup bearer - made even more so when it seems obvious he realized she was not a peasant girl but someone from the North - and probably of noble born - given her speech and her distinct lack of fear. Her first encounter with him already marked him out as she just stood there - staring at him in the prison pen.

Since Tywin was a very smart man, he probably figured her out as noble born and from the North too... etc.. whose parents were probably killed by his troops.

But it does help the storyline to have him and her side by side in the same room.

While it does not seem plausible to us - it does make for good drama. And you know what really makes him excited? It is to see Masie Williams (Arya)'s acting with Dance (Tywin) - both are such superior actors. And wow, can Masie act!!!! In the hands of a lesser actor - ie the kid who played Anakin in Star Wars1 - it would have been embrassing to watch.

But look at them. To see Williams hold her own against Dance (who is a vastly older actor) is simply gold. Casterly Rock gold. That's worth the price of admission imho.

If I had written that HBO scene - I still would have Tywin choosing Arya but not as cup bearer but as a page (boy) - it would have shown a more humane compassionate part of Tywin than a simply ruthless cold blooded warlord. (Hey, even Hitler liked dogs and children :)

[BoldAsYouPlease]

Wait, people are actually expecting that Tywin Freaking Lannister, the richest, most powerful Lord in the Seven Kingdoms, to interpret the statement of "anyone can be killed" as a threat? The man is arrogance personified. The thought that a lowly cupbearer is even capable of threatening him would never even occur to him.

I liked the scene. But a lowly cupbearer fetches and serves food and drink - poisoning is always a possibility. It made sense for Roose Bolton to make Arya-Nan his cupbearer - she'd risked her life to free his men from the dungeons of Harrenhal. Without her, Bolton could not have gained Harrenhal. He had no reason to mistrust her and his men were expecting her to be rewarded. It makes very little sense for Tywin Lannister to ride into Harrenhal and choose a random prisoner to bring him his wine. It makes even less sense for Tywin to continue doing so after he finds out that the random prisoner is a Northener - he's waging war against the lords of the North. Tywin Lannister is a man who can not bear to be laughed at or mocked, as the shade of his wife informs Jaime. The idea that he'd calmly accept a little girl's presumption simply isn't believable.

Like I said, I liked the scene quite a bit but that was because of the impressive screen presence of Charles Dance and the fine acting of both Dance and Maisie Williams, not because the scene was realistic or plausible.

[Independent George]

I liked the scene. But a lowly cupbearer fetches and serves food and drink - poisoning is always a possibility. It made sense for Roose Bolton to make Arya-Nan his cupbearer - she'd risked her life to free his men from the dungeons of Harrenhal. Without her, Bolton could not have gained Harrenhal. He had no reason to mistrust her and his men were expecting her to be rewarded. It makes very little sense for Tywin Lannister to ride into Harrenhal and choose a random prisoner to bring him his wine. It makes even less sense for Tywin to continue doing so after he finds out that the random prisoner is a Northener - he's waging war against the lords of the North. Tywin Lannister is a man who can not bear to be laughed at or mocked, as the shade of his wife informs Jaime. The idea that he'd calmly accept a little girl's presumption simply isn't believable.

What risk? I've seen a lot of people mention that she could poison him. How? Where would she get the poison? How would she know how to make it? How could she put a lethal dose in his drink without him tasting it?

What presumption? He asked her a question. She answered, and made eye contact. It's only a threat if you already know it's Arya, and not some random orphaned northern girl.

[BoldAsYouPlease]

But then I disagree with your conclusion;

...

Because the magic and mysterious origins you referenced earlier are already in the books; not in the writing staff meetings of HBO.

But isn't that an argument against the writing of the TV show? The source material is not only very strong, it contains built-in advantages for high drama such as the mystery of Jon Snow's birth. Discard those elements and you discard much of what makes the story so good.

I honestly get tired of people comparing the Wire to GoT because

1) the Wire was terrific because of REALISM... People compared it to a social documentary. No way that applies to dragons and face-changers.

If it were only because of the realism, any social documentary would be better. The Wire is a superior show for a number of other reasons as well, which I mentioned in the previous post.

2) the comparisons are superficial because they are often only about the amount of characters and plotlines. No one takes into account, for instance, that the Wire was succesful in showing the way different worlds were actually interwoven and affected each other. In GoT, we still just have several scattered stories and many do not affect each other directly (dany&jon are obvious examples).

To me, the stories in GoT seem very much interwoven, much more so than those in The Wire. Most of the characters are participants in the same civil war and most are either enemies or allies in that war. Dany has spent the last 5 books trying to become a participant in that war. All are menaced, whether they know it or not, by a threat from the north of the world, etc.

Referencing the Wire seems to be the purist shield against changes in the adaptation. No one is saying that TV can't be complex. It's just that more characters and more little details =/ complexity. Complexity is, among other things, about character development, emotional upheaval and moral ambiguity. It's not about a larger cast and more events.

The point I was trying to make isn't that complexity and huge casts are good things in and of themselves, but that TV is perfectly capable of telling complex, slow-burning stories with a huge cast and doing it extremely well, instead of taking the easy way out and then blaming it on the supposed inability of TV audiences to keep up. The Wire proved that emphatically.

[lyvyathan]

OTOH, Tywin seems... I guess intrigued is the best word with Arya. He has been from the moment he met her. I know it seems out of character for Tywin to let insolence slide, but perhaps this is why he did.

As quickly as he susses out her lies, you'd think he'd put 2 and 2 together.

There's a line from I believe ASOS. It says how Tywin never smiled, but very rarely, he'd threaten to smile, and when he did, it was terrible to behold (paraphrasing). Charles Dance nailed that.

I like this new addition to the plot - it certainly makes Tywin less 2 dimensional - in the books it was written that Tywin changed after his wife died (giving birth to Tyrion) - so I'm thinking that this funny relationship between Tywin and Arya brings out the old Tywin.

It looks a bit like a Lion playing with a lamb (or wolf cub).

[lyvyathan]

OTOH, Tywin seems... I guess intrigued is the best word with Arya. He has been from the moment he met her. I know it seems out of character for Tywin to let insolence slide, but perhaps this is why he did.

As quickly as he susses out her lies, you'd think he'd put 2 and 2 together.

It would seem a bit of a stretch to imagine that he would deduce that "the little girl" was Ned Stark's younger daughter. The idea that she could have escaped only to end up on his lap is too incredible to be true.

There would have been thousands of young boys and girls serving in the Northern forces as servants, or in auxilllary forces - Tywin would of course realize that Arya was of noble birth by the way she talked and her confidence in front of him, but guessing she was Ned Stark's own daughter through just casual conversation? I'm not so sure he could, esp. since Arya is pretty smart.

[lyvyathan]

I don't think that anyone believes Tywin should have been scared of Arya's veiled threat, but realistically he wouldn't tolerate the insolence and disrespect, especially in front of his council. Just as in season 1 when he goes to war over Tyrion because the house cannot be made to look weak, being threatened by your cup bearer in front of your bannermen would deserve punishment, even if he didn't personally feel threatened at all. It was a very well acted scene, but it was also a pretty unrealistic one, even before the threat. Some how I find it hard to imagine book Tywin caring what a peasant girl thinks about anything, much less interviewing her in front of the his bannermen. Plus it completely contradicts Arya's state of mind pre-Jaqen where she is a beaten, scared mouse.

But for him to retailiate on a small little girl for a perceived insolence might not be Tywin's style. Afterall if he really was that horrible he should have had her executed when she did not bend the knee the moment she saw him (in the prison pen along with the other prisoners who did pay fealty)

Arya was just responding to the question - although you could take her reply as a double edged sword.

Tywin is just very bemused by Arya and her intelligence. That's good isn't it?

[lyvyathan]

I'm still not sure what I think of this scene. I do know I love both of the actors though, so it's fun to watch no matter what. I have two conflicting thoughts on this.

I would suspect Tywin, like most high lords, really doesn't even acknowledge the existence of low-born people unless they have the gall to say something (like Arya to Roose when she wasn't spoken to). From my perspective, I have always seen Tywin as very aloof and not giving a damn about most people around him, especially low-born. I can't imagine him going up to prisoners and questioning them about their professions as soon as he arrives at Harrenhal. I also can't imagine book Tywin caring at all what a cupbearer thinks. And to the people that have said Tywin is ruthless but not cruel, I think he is quite cruel. Look at the things he's done to Tyrion. Having your guardsmen fuck the girl your son's in love with? That's disgusting. I don't think I ever recall him being amiable to anyone, not even his own children. Hell, Cersei and Jaime are just pretty pawns for him. I also think that there might have been some repercussions for Arya speaking to him like that. It wasn't downright threatening, but she did lie to him. I notice in the show it is a lot more common for small folk to get sassy and rude with high nobility....even kings.

On the other hand, book Tywin is practical. He's not a psychopath like Joffrey and will seize opportunities when he sees them. We have never really seen him interact with small folk, so I guess we don't really know how he would act. Maybe he would ask a cupbearer her thoughts. That's a very Robb/Ned Stark thing to do, so maybe Tywin is like that too. I don't know. I kind of have a feeling the show is trying to make him more likable, but maybe that's just coincidence. Maybe they're trying to make him even more grey and conflicting.

Whatever. Either way, I like TV & book Tywin, but I'm just trying to figure out if he's really that different from book Tywin, or if it's just a side of him we haven't seen in the books.

In the book, Tywin changed a lot after his wife died giving birth to Tyrion. His brutal treatment of Tysha was in part due to his rage at Tyrion, the son he (wrongfully) held responsible for the death of his wife.

Whilst Tywin is responsible for the brutal massacres of the Riverrun folk - it doesn't necessarily follow that he will show utter disregard to the treatment of Gregor's prisoners. In the book - Tywin is also mentioned showing a bit of "remorse" of some sort that Gregor raped the Doran princess.

[lyvyathan]

Glad I wasn't the only one who noticed. Westeros is a land where threatening a high lord with "anyone can be killed," while just outing yourself as a Northerner, can get you executed as a matter of course. Even Ilyn Payne did less and got his tongue removed. Also stupid that crazy girl who just threatened you is now charged with finding water for my lord. Absurd.

Ilyn Payne had his tongue removed by mad King Aerys who also had random people burnt alive. Not the same.

Besides being outed as a Northerner wasn't a big surprise - afterall Tywin found her in the POW prison pen.

[lyvyathan]

I liked the TV scene. It was fun to watch.

But when you think about it, it wasn't right. In the books, the whole theme of the Harrenhal chapters was: constant fear of getting killed for no reason at all. Just looking at the wrong person at the wrong time could be fatal. And the only way to survive is to not be noticed. With so many lunatics amongst the Mountain's men, you can never be sure that one of them suddenly gets the urge to torture or kill you. So Gendry and Arya hang low. They try to be invisible. The Tywin/Arya scene completely removes that theme, imho.

Another weird effect is this. For Tywin Lannister, the war with Rob Stark is his prime concern. His second concern is getting his son Jaime back. One of the main methods to get him back would have been to trade Jaime for one or more Starks. They got Sansa, but Arya is missing. He is aware of that. Tyrion and a few others have been discussing such a trade. If only they had Ayra. And suddenly, in front of Tywin is a group of refugees/travelers known to be coming from King's Landing, with a girl from the North who tries to hide her own identity ? That should ring bells inside Tywin's head immediately. The first thing he would do is sent Ayra to the Tickler and torture her to get her real name out. For me, this would be the logical followup of the Tywin/Arya scene. But that won't be happening in the tv-series.

This is one of the small details why I think you can't just add or change small things from the books. Martin took years to write a book. I am sure he thought of the consistency of every scene (knowingly, or maybe even, after all these years, unconsciously).

Well, they weren't aware that they all came from KL - afterall they were all lumped together in the prison pen with the other POWs - and the Lannister troops were more interested in getting info about gold and the whereabouts of partisan forces and for the sheer macbre fun of killing prisoners. That's why they tortured Gentry without even bothering to ascertain his origin.

Point 2, if Tywin had given Arya over to the Tickler he probably wouldn't have much of her left after he had "questioned" her. (Hence his disgust at the wasteful disposal of good workers)

[lyvyathan]

What would he do if he did find out she was Arya? Send her to Robb and Cat with a peace offer or marry her to Tommen? Or something else?

He'd probably do exactly that - he definitely disagreed with the idea of executing Ned Stark. And he's probably fishing around for a diplomatic solution.

[I'm the Ghost in Harrenhal]

I liked the TV scene. It was fun to watch.

But when you think about it, it wasn't right. In the books, the whole theme of the Harrenhal chapters was: constant fear of getting killed for no reason at all. Just looking at the wrong person at the wrong time could be fatal. And the only way to survive is to not be noticed. With so many lunatics amongst the Mountain's men, you can never be sure that one of them suddenly gets the urge to torture or kill you. So Gendry and Arya hang low. They try to be invisible. The Tywin/Arya scene completely removes that theme, imho.

To me the line was an affirmation of your point not against it. With everything thats been going on around her, she realizes no one is safe. She has been watching people die every day via the Tickler and The Mountain, her father just died, Yoren died etc. And if were going by the show purely.. Tywin just saved one of her only friends, and likely herself from a horrible death. I don't think she is threatening him, she is just stating the cold hard facts of what has become her life.

Robb isn't invincible. Seems to me she is stating that realization.

Couple that with her final scene with Gendry.. cold interaction, to the point, kind of saying to him: be prepared anything can happen.

[Sirielle]

My issue is her pronunciation of "my lord" not "m'lord" - it was referred to as a big deal in the books marking someone as not of small folk and there goes Arya

Arya doesn’t know enough to fake the speech of a lowborn; she’s just too young for that. Doubtless Tywin notices, is intrigued, and continues to observe her to find out who she really is.

I believe Tywin noticed her way of speaking being different, that's why he wanted her for his cup-bearer - a smart girl, perhaps coming from servants - or even members - of highborn people is a better servant than a village girl. But he will not find out who she is, I second the double-facepalm way of events Independent George described ;)

I wonder if Roose in the book realized who she was? Or realized he had her captured and let escape after he learned Arya was missing. (I don't remember if he knew of her escape from KL when she was his cup bearer.) Got to re-read it one day, for I didn't remember this scene at all.

Also I wonder if in this course of events Roose will take Harrenhall and Arya with it.

Edit.

And Blangadanger is right - TV-Tywin is different form the book one. Most of characters are different, so it's natural they behave differently to the book originals. I really like the TV-Tywin and it makes me sad Tyrion will get that crossbow from Varys in the SoF. Tywin was probably the only person who could bring order in the kingdoms. In a harsh way, but he would finally bring peace, like he manged to do in mad king times. Did Varys gave that crossbow to Tyrion especially, hoping Tyrion would make a use of it? I wonder how much of this will be Varys work, how much coincidence, given the last scene in ADWD.

And I don't think it necessarily seemed like a threat to Tywin. As others have said, he expected her to be fierce, as he pegged her for a northerner. He finds her mildly amusing; that's why he chose her for his cupbearer. She held the stare a bit long. Perhaps this sad girl is a bit more interesting? Or maybe just for the moment.

Completely agree! I'm with those who see it more as Arya realizing the cold truth, than threatening anyone. At least I didn't have impression she intended to threaten Tywin.