The face of Jaqen, the Alchemist... and Daario

[Horza]

Odd that someone so keen on minutiae would also miss that Jaquen/Alchemist and Daario have different hair:

Jaquen: "And when he shook his head, his long straight hair, half red and half white, dissolved away to reveal

a cap of tight black curls."

Alchemist: "He had a hooked nose, and a mat of dense black hair that curled tightly around his ears."

Daario: "His beard was cut into three prongs and dyed blue, the same color as his eyes and the curly hair that fell to his collar."

Though I guess there's time to do a lot of restyling with all the travelling this guy does.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

^ Yes, that too. How could we all forget Daario's circus hair. Black hair closely cropped =/= blue hair (and a beard) down to the collar.

[Bran Vras]

Odd that someone so keen on minutiae would also miss that Jaquen/Alchemist and Daario have different hair:

Though I guess there's time to do a lot of restyling with all the travelling this guy does.

Daario poses as a Tyroshi. He even changes his dying colour between the first and and the second period in Meereen. A few monthes have passed between Harrenhal and Meereen. What is the problem then?

@Horza. I dislike your irony. After all I am just here to have fun discussing the books I like. What's the point of such a tone?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Daario poses as a Tyroshi. He even changes his dying colour between the first and and the second period in Meereen. A few monthes have passed between Harrenhal and Meereen. What is the problem then?

You can shed long hair but you can't grow it back in only a few months, certainly not from closely cropped down to the collar. If Daario goes from long hair in Meereen to short hair in Oldtown back to long hair, that needs an explanation. And again, you also need to explain who's impersonating Pate if it isn't the Alchemist.

[Horza]

Daario poses as a Tyroshi. He even changes his dying colour between the first and and the second period in Meereen. A few monthes have passed between Harrenhal and Meereen. What is the problem then?

To be pedantic, there are four features in the description of the face Jaqen takes:

-a hooked nose

-a gold tooth

-a scar

-short curly black hair

The Alchemist has those same features and no other elements.

Daario has different hair, more scars and additional features like blue eyes not elicited in the previous description. The only things he has in common with the Jaqen description are a hooked nose and a gold tooth, neither of them particularly outstanding features.

Which is more likely: him being that the Alchemist, who matches that description perfectly or him being Daario, who doesn't?

Which is more likely: the Alchemist being a totally different Faceless Man who just happens to look perfectly like the appearance Jaqen assumes while the real Jaqen goes to another continent picking up some scars, hair dye and oh, reputation and the leadership of a mercenary company along the way?

[Dragonfish]

Thank you. I shall look at that. But that's not enough obviously. What is the other evidence that the Alchemist is impersonating Pate?

Well, the Alchemist is the only person in the area known to be able to change his face, he's never once shown to work with a partner, and he's the one who killed Pate. Seems like a no-brainer to me.

[Lykos]

Well I always wondered about the Alchemist killing Pate, it seemed pointless to me. And how could he know that Pate would try to test the gold coin by biting it, he´d never done that before. But when Sam encounters Pate at the Citadel, I was shure he was an imposter, because Pate had made plans to flee iIrc. This shows how sloppy the Alchemist FM is, compared to Arya, using the coin and freely admitting to the pig boy similarity of his name.

ETA: Horza, the reputation thing is a good point, in my opinion.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Well I always wondered about the Alchemist killing Pate, it seemed pointless to me. And how could he know that Pate would try to test the gold coin by biting it, he´d never done that before. But when Sam encounters Pate at the Citadel, I was shure he was an imposter, because Pate had made plans to flee iIrc. This shows how sloppy the Alchemist FM is, compared to Arya, using the coin and freely admitting to the pig boy similarity of his name.

It's implied that Pate had access to something — like, keys — in the Citadel that the Alchemist needed. So in that sense, it's not really pointless; we just haven't seen it through to fruition yet. It's also possible that the Alchemist had been observing Pate for a while and knew how he would react to getting a coin (similarly to how Arya knew the insurance guy would also bite the coin). I also don't think the Alchemist is ... sloppy, per se. Sam had no idea who Pate was or that he disliked the "pig boy" thing. The wording made it clear to us that something was off. Sam wouldn't have noticed anything amiss.

[Lykos]

@Apple Martini

The Alchemist had obtained the key at that point, and only little research would have told him that pate posed little danger of revealing him. Arya had researched the habit of the insurance man, to bite the coins, so she knew he would.

ETA: All the other people in the roomcould have noticed the pig boy thing.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

@Apple Martini

The Alchemist had obtained the key at that point, and only little research would have told him that pate posed little

danger of revealing him.

But what good is that key without being able to move freely about the Citadel in order to use it? I get the impression that the Alchemist had Pate fetch him the key as proof that he had access to it. Once the Alchemist knew that Pate's access really was legit, he killed him and assumed his identity. Without the cover of Pate's identity, having the key would be useless. It's also possible that the job entailed a longer tenure than just smashing and grabbing, evidenced by the Alchemist still being there months later when Sam arrives.

Arya had researched the habit of the insurance man, to bite the coins, so she knew he would.

... Yes. And if Arya could do that with the insurance man — research his habits — why couldn't Jaqen have done that with Pate?

[Jem]

@Apple Martini

The Alchemist had obtained the key at that point, and only little research would have told him that pate posed little danger of revealing him. Arya had researched the habit of the insurance man, to bite the coins, so she knew he would.

But the Alchemist needed to get inside the Citadel and search for whatever it is he wanted. Presumably he can't just go waltzing in and start snooping around. Adopting Pate as his disguise gives him access to the Citadel.

Pate is the assistant to Maester Walgrave, the Arch Maester in charge of ravens (ie communications). Maester Walgrave is completely dotty, so if people saw Pate running around in places he wasn't strictly allowed, they may just assume that he is running errands for Maester Walgrave.

[Lykos]

Yes and as I said when Sam met Pate, I was shure he was an imposter and that was the reason why he had to kill Pate. Before I thought it would be more in line with the FM philosophy to use stealth to search for what´s needed and not give the gift to a random bystander. I just wanted to say that Arya is already more careful than her recruiter.

Lots of spelling. And ETA: Apple Martini Pate never had gold to bite and never did before, he mentions that he´d seen people do so, that´s why he did it.

[Bran Vras]

To be pedantic, there are four features in the description of the face Jaqen takes:

-a hooked nose

-a gold tooth

-a scar

-short curly black hair

The Alchemist has those same features and no other elements.

Daario has different hair, more scars and additional features like blue eyes not elicited in the previous description. The only things he has in common with the Jaqen description are a hooked nose and a gold tooth, neither of them particularly outstanding features.

Which is more likely: him being that the Alchemist, who matches that description perfectly or him being Daario, who doesn't?

Which is more likely: the Alchemist being a totally different Faceless Man who just happens to look perfectly like the appearance Jaqen assumes while the real Jaqen goes to another continent picking up some scars, hair dye and oh, reputation and the leadership of a mercenary company along the way?

The Alchemist is not said to have a golden tooth. The OP includes a count of hooked noses and golden teeth in the whole series. You'll see for yourself what is more remarkable. I have done my homework. If you want to discuss what I am saying, please read the OP.

About the golden tooth, there is a nice little details about dentition when Arya has her face changed (ADwD)

To other eyes, your nose and jaw are broken,” said the waif. “One side of your face is caved in where your cheekbone shattered, and half your teeth are missing.”

She probed around inside her mouth with her tongue, but found no holes or broken teeth.

So we know that the golden tooth is part of the face and not of the person.

I need to recall here are two levels in the discussion. One is about the hard fact that Daario has a golden tooth, scars, a hooked nose and curly hair like Jaqen, and probably the Alchemist. The second level is about explaining the reason for the similarity (identity of persons, or identity of faces).

(By the way, don't I bring up something new with this similarity of faces? Has it been noted before? Perhaps I should say that the hooked nose was enough to alarm me. The golden tooth was a confirmation. Then I checked the curly hair. It took me a bit more time to understand the scar trick.)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

And ETA: Apple Martini Pate never had gold to bite and never did before, he mentions that he´d seen people do so, that´s why he did it.

And if it's customary to do it, it's not unreasonable for Jaqen to expect Pate to do it. Really, the whole coin thing was probably done as a narrative device so that readers would recognize it when it popped up again with Arya. Any criticism that "it couldn't be expected" is probably just ... missing the point. And really, does anyone think that Jaqen wouldn't have still killed Pate in some other way if he hadn't bitten the coin? "Oh well he didn't bite it, guess I'm SOL"? :dunno:

@Bran Vras ... again, who is impersonating Pate if it isn't the Alchemist? And you still haven't explained the change in hair length, either. I now remember another reason why your posts frustrated me to the point where I stopped reading them: Rather than accept several major flaws in your arguments (hair length, timeline issues, contradicting details, lack of any evidence of a conspirator with Jaqen), you get stuck on one or two minute details and beat them to death (a gold tooth, which of course only one guy in this universe could possibly have).

[Lykos]

@Apple Martini

I just wanted to give alternative reasons why I believe the same thing as you, that Jaqen is impersonating Pate. And give Arya some praise for being better than him. I think Jaquen used a glamour for the Alchemist´s face (which is probably a face he used before, and is now used by a FM impersonating Daario) and used the real Pate´s face after killing him, only when he killed Pate, I didn´t understand why. It only made sense to me when he met Sam.

[Horza]

The Alchemist is not said to have a golden tooth. The OP includes a count of hooked noses and golden teeth in the whole series. You'll see for yourself what is more remarkable. I have done my homework. If you want to discuss what I am saying, please read the OP.

About the golden tooth, there is a nice little details about dentition when Arya has her face changed (ADwD)

So we know that the golden tooth is part of the face and not of the person.

I need to recall here are two levels in the discussion. One is about the hard fact that Daario has a golden tooth, scars, a hooked nose and curly hair like Jaqen, and probably the Alchemist. The second level is about explaining the reason for the similarity (identity of persons, or identity of faces).

(By the way, don't I bring up something new with this similarity of faces? Has it been noted before? Perhaps I should say that the hooked nose was enough to alarm me. The golden tooth was a confirmation. Then I checked the curly hair. It took me a bit more time to understand the scar trick.)

Arya doesn't note the colour of the Alchemist's eyes, Pate doesn't note his dentures (he doesn't grin for Pig Boys), I misread you and you missed "I'm Pate, like the Pig Boy".

We all have our homework cut out for us, it seems. ;)

But your theory has still created two big extra assumptions - that Jaqen modifies his appearance further to become Daario and that another Faceless Man is operating in Oldtown who's visage matches Jaqen's much more closely has just popped up, and you don't appear to be able to explain them.

[Eira Seren]

You can shed long hair but you can't grow it back in only a few months, certainly not from closely cropped down to the collar. If Daario goes from long hair in Meereen to short hair in Oldtown back to long hair, that needs an explanation. And again, you also need to explain who's impersonating Pate if it isn't the Alchemist.

i think that i like "b" better. . . there could certainly be more than one faceless man with the same face. makes more sense than j having to become a skipping stone.

i suppose faceless men could wear wigs, that would account for some of the styling changes

[Lykos]

@Eira Seren

Yes, the hair isn´t a problem as you rightly point out.

I also agree that it would be unnecessarily complicated if Jaqen jetted back and forth, that´s why I sugested the third option where Jaqen glamours his face to become the Alchemist.

I think that a golden tooth would be quite rare in the World of Ice and Fire, so it could be a hint that Daario is another FM using the same face that Jaqen used as blueprint for his glamour.

[Ser Steven Greyjoy]

I buy more into the idea that Daario might be Euron. Never heard the theory he might be Jaqen.

[Bran Vras]

@Bran Vras ... again, who is impersonating Pate if it isn't the Alchemist? And you still haven't explained the change in hair length, either. I now remember another reason why your posts frustrated me to the point where I stopped reading them: Rather than accept several major flaws in your arguments (hair length, timeline issues, contradicting details, lack of any evidence of a conspirator with Jaqen), you get stuck on one or two minute details and beat them to death (a gold tooth, which of course only one guy in this universe could possibly have).

Apple Martini: if you want to point "major flaws" in my arguments and accuse me vaguely of intellectual dishonesty, please go to the relevant threads and put your complaints there.

Concerning the gold tooth, and I am repeating the OP, there are three golden teeth mentioned for the whole series, less than Valyrian blades. So don't tell me it's insignificant.

Are you going to tell me that my observation about the identity of faces doesn't hold because the (unknown with precision) hair growth doesn't match over an unknown period of time? I thought about argumenting about that and I realized it's not worth... splitting hair. If what I say is wrong it will be for a better reason.

Frankly I have not thought much about Pate. But I should have. Here is how I would start my thinking (I can get wrong at any point in the reasoning). The Kindly Man explains to Arya that there are three ways to change appearance: mummer trick, glamour and hard face change. (Edit: Lykos seems to reason on a similar basis.) it seems to me that the mummer trick doesn't apply. Glamour can not be maintained indefinitely, according to Melisandre. So it must be hard face change. Can a faceless man administer the hard face change to himself, that would mean, I guess, doing the surgery on himself and on Pate?

Isn't it reasonable that there is another agent sent by the Faceless Men on which the Alchemist has put Pate's face?

So I can come up with a solution with relatively little imagination. However, I hate reasoning like I just did. I only like explanations based on the text. And I don't see what I could quote to support what I just said. To summarize, the question of Pate is not insurmountable, but I don't have a solution that I like.

In any case, I note that you don't dispute the coincidence of faces. You just object to the fact that the Alchemist and Jaqen are the same person. Then there is merit in my thread! Hurrah!

There is an important piece of evidence that I forgot in the OP. (A good argument based on the text!) It's the farewell of Arya and Jaqen:

“If you would learn, you must come with me.”

Arya grew hesitant. “Where?”

“Far and away, across the narrow sea.”

i think that i like "b" better. . . there could certainly be more than one faceless man with the same face. makes more sense than j having to become a skipping stone.

Many people prefer b] indeed when presented with the evidence. For some reason, I don't quite like it. This is why I insist on pushing a] to the limit.

Arya doesn't note the colour of the Alchemist's eyes, Pate doesn't note his dentures (he doesn't grin for Pig Boys), I misread you and you missed "I'm Pate, like the Pig Boy".

Arya never met the Alchemist. Whatever you meant, eye colour is not a significant marker like the tooth is (see OP again).