What triggered the return of "old magic"?

[jblair]

Regarding the possible 'pact' between Stark and Targaryen. Perhaps R+L=J broke the mystical pact (or at the least, unwritten rules), combining two lineages with different (and potentially oppositional) magical powers, in furtherance of completing the prophecy.

The need for this could be what prompted the seemingly sane and intelligent Rhaegar to risk certain civil war over Lyanna. What does the fate of a kingdom matter if the whole world is at risk?

[Risha]

I love this theory of the Targ-Stark balance! It makes complete sense that magic has always been there, but that the choices made by the humans/races have caused misuse/nonuse of it. Notice that those motivated by revenge in the books usually end up causing themselves and their loved ones pain (doesn't bode well for Arya). The choice for peace, the choice to combine forces against all the natural (even magical) world has to throw against you, even the choice to forgive/love your enemy/opposite (R+L=J!) results in harmony for all.

In the riddle, it is all up to the sellsword. What if he chooses to think for himself and kill no one? Free will, baby!

[A Song of Ice and Fire]

I believe the Stark kids started gaining the Warg ability after attaining the Direwolfs. The bonds of the kids and the wolves help them awaken their hidden Warg ability. Out of the 6 children that got the wolves 3 of them have used it so far. Bran, Arya and Jon. Robb wasnt seen warging but it was obvious he had strong ties to greywind. Sansa's Lady died too early for her to awaken any powers of the Warg. Rickon is maybe too young. Its just a theory.

[darrylzero]

Rickon is maybe too young. Its just a theory.

Rickon could also totally be warging already. How would we know?

Anyway, as for where magic comes from, it seems like it should be related to the seasons. One thing I've been wondering is whether the seasons on a global scale are alternating between summer and winter or between mild and extreme. Put another way, if we imagine the shadow lands beyond Asshai to be the fire and shadow equivalent of beyond the wall (or even the lands of always winter), is it getting hotter or colder there now that it's really hitting the fan in Westeros?

If the rise of magic is connected, that would indicate hotter to me (which in turn would indicate that Quaithe could be one of the good guys but Mel is not probably). My guess is that it's just cyclical. I tend to assume that restoring balance to the seasons and letting magic leave the world more permanently will be the ultimate outcome, but it's hard to say.

[The Swaggering Bravo]

Facetious / fuh-see-shuhss/ adj.

Treating serious issues with inappropriate humour.

(courtesy of the oxford english dictionary)!!

Well in that case I disagree.

[Towel]

The Others returned well before the Dragons ... as did the dire wolves* for that matter.

(* If they can be considered as a part of 'the magic', rather than simply a sign of winter descending. Which could also be tied to 'the magic', I guess. Or not. Oh damn you, convolution ...)

Like I said, I think others are simply a different bipedal lifeform that lives in TLoAW.

[Towel]

The Others returned well before the Dragons ... as did the dire wolves* for that matter.

(* If they can be considered as a part of 'the magic', rather than simply a sign of winter descending. Which could also be tied to 'the magic', I guess. Or not. Oh damn you, convolution ...)

Like I said, I think others are simply a different bipedal lifeform that lives in TLoAW.

[Budj]

I have a few theories:

1) Perhaps the long night/long winter is when magic returns.

2) I think it makes more sense that magic resurges from chaos in the realm....thousands of people dying from all the king claims/conquoring seems like pretty good energy supply for a magic hub that gets depleted when used....also....

3) Kind of hand in hand with 2) is that as strife and hard times occur more people turn to religion. Perhaps as more people turn to follow a religion the representative magic powers get stronger?

[Ponder]

Like I said, I think others are simply a different bipedal lifeform that lives in TLoAW.

They may indeed be ... but they have the power to raise the dead, and can only be killed by special weapons - at which point, they melt down into a puddle. Sounds fairly magical to me.

[Towel]

But they never went away. I said that there was always a fair amount of low level magic. The dragons being born triggered the return of the "old magic" as is described in the thread, although I wouldn't call it that.

[Buried Treasure]

The Dragons returning has certainly seems to be strengthening some kinds of magic, but I wouldn't say 'old' magic so much as fire magic - like the fire charmer pointed out to Dany shortly after she left the Red Waste. That said, one of the most biggest uses of fire magic we have seen was the resurrection of Beric - which first happened before the dragons were born.

Targaryens have been trying to hatch Dragons through various rituals and magic spells for more than 100 years.

Dany was by no means the first to try it. But this time the spells worked, whereas in previous years they only made the Targaryens look like fools.

Clearly, if Dany had tried her same Dragon hatching stunt 50 years earlier, the underlying magic would not have been in place to make it work.

Something changed in the last few decades, which raised the background magic to the extent that Dragons could be hatched again.

It wasn't Dany, it was whatever caused the magic to return. Dany's Dragon hatching was just a result of that.

I'm not so certain about this. Each Targaryen has tried a slightly different method of it dragon-hatching and Dany's success may have been because she hit on the correct ritual rather than because she was trying it at a more magical time.

My latest theory is that 'mother of dragons' is more literal than we ever realised and that the fires and sacrifices only worked this time because Dany was pregnant. Rhaego was fossilied and had been dead a thousand years, which was something like the age of the dragon eggs before they hatched. I've also noticed that the first time she feels warmth from the eggs is the night after she has terrible dragon dreams - and although we are not given exact dates this is around the time she must have conceived.

Anyway, as for where magic comes from, it seems like it should be related to the seasons. One thing I've been wondering is whether the seasons on a global scale are alternating between summer and winter or between mild and extreme. Put another way, if we imagine the shadow lands beyond Asshai to be the fire and shadow equivalent of beyond the wall (or even the lands of always winter), is it getting hotter or colder there now that it's really hitting the fan in Westeros?

If the rise of magic is connected, that would indicate hotter to me (which in turn would indicate that Quaithe could be one of the good guys but Mel is not probably). My guess is that it's just cyclical. I tend to assume that restoring balance to the seasons and letting magic leave the world more permanently will be the ultimate outcome, but it's hard to say.

You are suggesting that changes in seasons bring changes in magic like a tide rising and falling? It's an interesting idea.

Certainly the return of the Others seems to be due to an exceptionally long Winter coming. I think some of the magic we see is a response to that; the Starks warging and greenseers seems to be the old gods way of arming a defense for the coming war. I'm not so sure where non-old gods magics fit into that though.

We should also not rule out the Doom of Valayria as a factor. As well as causing the almost extinction of dragons the doom itself (whatever it was) may have caused a disturbance in the 'natural' balance of magic. Maybe the world has taken 400 years to just return to what has always been the normal level of magic,

[Ser Pollo Loco]

Another thing regarding the pack theory, the last "fully" Targ born after Aries breaks the pack ends up waking the dragons, I know other magic was involved but she could sense something in the eggs.............or perhaps its not the pack at all, maybe were wrong in thinking that the others are ice or even a representation, maybe the others/long night represent the dark or whatever and the starks regaining the power to warg and dany and waking the dragons are ice and fire magic responding to the threat....it will take both ice (Starks) and fire (Dany) to beat the threat. The dragons maybe nukes but maybe alone they aren't enough and you need a "song" of ice and fire to beat them........how jon fits in as both ice and fire remains to be seen

[Catastrophe]

I strongly doubt we'll ever get anything close to an official answer. Personally, I don't think there is a cause. I think the resurgence of magic is just a natural part of the ASoIaF world, no different than the rise and fall of the ocean's tides.

[dollybird]

I strongly doubt we'll ever get anything close to an official answer. Personally, I don't think there is a cause. I think the resurgence of magic is just a natural part of the ASoIaF world, no different than the rise and fall of the ocean's tides.

It will be pretty bad if we don't get an answer. The magic is at the heart of everything. It one of the main features in the story. I think the mystery of magic is what is so interesting and exciting about it. I don't want or expect GRRM to go in to a big explanation of why there is magic in the world and the source of it I hope that will remain a mystery. Some things a better left a mystery.

I do however believe that there will be an explanation for the current surge of awakenings and comebacks of things of old. Like I said in other posts, I am not even sure that "old magic" or "magic" are the correct terms but for lack of better terms I use them. It seems like the loss of "magic" in the worlds was natural and related to the loss of knowledge by the people that use it and the loss of knowledge of the history of Westeros and it all filtered out over the generations. My point is that something is causing the current series of events and the revival of "magic". Its the question again of are the others coming back because winter is coming or is winter coming because the others are coming back??? For all this and more I believe we will most definitely get an explanation. Until then I'm really enjoying speculating and reading all these posts theres some great ideas.

More speculation, obviously I have a lot of free time!!.......Does any one else think that Rhaegar and Lyanna have a Romeo and Juliette type story? Star crossed lovers, forbidden love, tragic ending.

[dollybird]

rereading acok's and came across this in a conversation between Tyrion and Hallyne the pyromancer. The conversation was about the spells used to create the wildfire. " I asked him ( old wisdom Pollitor ) why so many of our spells seemed, well, not as effectual as the scrolls would have us believe, and he said it was because magic had begun to go out of the world the day the last dragon died."

Just thought that was very interesting!!

[Rose of Winterfell]

My latest theory is that 'mother of dragons' is more literal than we ever realised and that the fires and sacrifices only worked this time because Dany was pregnant. Rhaego was fossilied and had been dead a thousand years, which was something like the age of the dragon eggs before they hatched. I've also noticed that the first time she feels warmth from the eggs is the night after she has terrible dragon dreams - and although we are not given exact dates this is around the time she must have conceived.

I agree. I wonder what would have happened if pregnant Rhaella had been at Summerhall? Maybe the eggs would hve hatched lol.

[Pj Fallon]

This is the probably the central mystery of the entire series. Whoever or whatever did it is probably the Final Boss of Ice and Fire. Whatever thing is going on behind the scene might also be responsible for Westeros' bizarre seasonal patterns. By the way, my guess for the Final Boss: The Red God. I never trusted that creature, whatever it is. Mel always assumes she's fighting for the Light but R'hollor sounds exaclty like an H.P. Lovecraft unimaginable horror. Somebody woke the Red God and that's been throwing the entire world out of balance.

The Others returned well before the Dragons ... as did the dire wolves* for that matter. (* If they can be considered as a part of 'the magic', rather than simply a sign of winter descending. Which could also be tied to 'the magic', I guess. Or not. Oh damn you, convolution ...)

The long night could be a part of this cycle too but the people of westeros were able to stop it "The Others are responsibel for the doom and the Shadow" would be a conclusion

Sorry in relation to the seasons and magic I'd advise you look at this---

http://io9.com/5906300/5-scientific-explanations-for-game-of-thrones-messed+up-seasons

Its an interesting read. I'd chose one of those reasons for the seasons over magic any day as there is to too much magic in books set in the past.

[Opkio]

IIRC I read somewhere that GRRM didnt want to explain how magic worked or even got to Westeros. He just simply stated that it existed and that should be enough.

Aside from that, I think there have always been magic in Westeros, however, it is stronger now. The Reeds probably deal with magic more often than we actually know.

[Ibbison from Ibben]

Summerhall.

The level of magic in the world had been falling for hundreds of years. The Doom of Valyria might have caused, or been a cause, of this loss.

Whatever Egg tried at Summerhall (which blew up in his face) reversed the trend. It has taken about 40 years to become noticeable in Westeros.

[Arthanis]

Birth of Jon.

Maybe some blood types should never mix. Valyrians didn't invaded Westeros for a reason... and Strarks were not making marriages outside North families for a reason too. Maybe Jon (Azor Ahai?) is not messiah, but trigger of cataclysm.