"Her small breasts moved freely..."

[Lyanna Stark]

Yeah but do any of the male characters comment on their muscles, height or chest hair?

Ned comments on Robert being "muscled like a maiden's fantasy". Jaime thinks about the Kettleblacks and I think someone (Ned again? Maybe at the Hands Tourney?) comments or thinks on the Hound being "muscled like a bull"?

Cersei thinks about Rhaegar being handsome, Sansa (ACOK or early ASOS before she becomes cynical) thinks she'd like to run her hands down Loras' chest or some such and Brienne makes the famous "Half a corpse, half a God" comment in her head about Jaime.

[Lummel]

...Yeah but do any of the male characters comment on their muscles, height or chest hair?...

Yes! Jaime on the Kettleblacks with regard to bodyhair as per Evamitchelle above. The Ned with regard to Robert, describing him as looking like a maiden's dream (before obviously he adopted his famous beer, wine and fat diet).

I'm not sure how typical it is amongst men to compare each other in that way. Height yes, muscles - no not really, chest hair - no not really, head hair - yes. I suppose that might be because only so much is visible.

[voodooqueen126]

Voodooqueen, the size of a woman's breasts is an indicator of the size of the breasts of her female ancestors, that's all.

True, size is indeed genetic... yet are not our hormone levels genetic? I mean sure foetal health plays a huge role in male testosterone and malnutrition is terrible for anything size related, yet genetics does determine a lot of things, and estrogen could be one of them.

From the wiki article on the breast:

As an ethologist, Morris further proposed that breasts, a secondary sex characteristic located on the woman's chest, encouraged face-to-face sexual intercourse that led to the establishment of an emotional bond between man and woman; social progress from an essentially procreational function of human biology.^[25] Furthermore, the symmetry of the breasts, and the general symmetry of the human body, influence what men and women consider physical attractiveness in a mate with whom to reproduce. Bodily beauty, evolutionary psychology proposes that a symmetrical body signals genetical health to a potential mate and so is the product of a morphologically stable line of people who physically developed without interference by disease. Therefore, because the breasts are especially sensitive to developmental interference (genetic and environmental), breast symmetry indicates a woman of good health and thus of good breeding stock, who shall successfully bear more (surviving) children than will a woman with asymmetrical breasts.

It goes on to say that

In some cultures breasts play a role in human sexual activity. _______Cut for relevance>>>>>>

During sexual arousal, breast size increases, venous patterns across the breasts become more visible, and nipples harden. Compared to other primates, human breasts are proportionately large throughout adult females' lives. Some writers have suggested that they may have evolved as a visual signal of sexual maturity and fertility.^[47]

Many people regard the female human body, of which breasts are an important aspect, to be aesthetically pleasing, as well as erotic. Research conducted at the Victoria University of Wellington showed that breasts are often the first thing men look at, and for a longer time than other body parts.^[48] The writers of the study had initially speculated that the reason for this is due to endocrinology with larger breasts indicating higher levels of estrogen and a sign of greater fertility,^[48][49] but the researchers said that "Men may be looking more often at the breasts because they are simply aesthetically pleasing, regardless of the size."^[48]

Many people regard bare female breasts to be erotic, and they can elicit heightened sexual desires in some men in some cultures. Some people show a sexual interest in female breasts distinct from that of the person, which may be regarded as a breast fetish.

/End Quote/

[SelaBela]

Not to nit pick but fetish refers to inanimate objects that aren't sexual at all that get sexual things attached to them, like clothes(lingerie), shoes etc, and partialism is when a body part that isn't meant to be sexual has sexual fantasies ascribed to it; like feet, ass, breasts. So technically, the booby lovers of the world have a partialism not a fetish.

Anyway, I wasn't very offended by GRRM's line, and I do think about my breasts most of the time. I agree with what previous posters have said, that the Cracked writer could have picked a better line to nit pick.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's when she's in Qarth:

If the Milk Men thought her such a savage, she would dress the part for them. When she went to the stables, she wore faded sandsilk pants and woven grass sandals. Her small breasts moved freely beneath a painted Dothraki vest, and a curved dagger hung from her medallion belt. Jhiqui had braided her hair Dothraki fashion, and fastened a silver bell to the end of the braid.

Looking at it in context, it's written like it was a conscious decision to let the twins bob about. Like she was deliberately playing up the "savage" role for the Qartheen (who don't have much room to talk, given that they have a dress style that deliberately leaves a boob completely bare), and part of that was in how she dressed and how her bits were or weren't constrained. When you see it that way — and not just an isolated sentence about her boobs tottering about freely — it makes sense and doesn't quite come off as Martin having a male fantasy moment.

Since we're all talking about our junk this morning, chalk me up as another lady who is often very self-conscious about how the twins look and what they're doing.

[Night Gathers]

Also if I remember correctly, Viserys told her at times that she had small breasts, which undoubtedly made her feel insecure about that part at least. She doesn't really have many teenagers to compare with, but since she really looked up to Viserys she trusted his judgment.

[Sam with Hooters]

A few minor points:

1. Book!Dany is what, thirteen? Probably still developing.

2. She's probably contrasting her Dothraki vest with other fashions she's worn, especially if they included corsetry, or deliberately laced it extra-loose since she wasn't going to be traveling by horseback (or jogging).

[eyeheartsansa]

She's probably contrasting her Dothraki vest with other fashions she's worn, especially if they included corsetry, or deliberately laced it extra-loose since she wasn't going to be traveling by horseback (or jogging).

this,exactly.

She is more comfortable in her dothraki gear.

[Castel]

You are projecting things onto me I have never said. A lot of things in Westeros would be stuff that don't fit into my worldview. For instance, I am strongly in support of Catelyn not being a mother for Jon Snow, due to how society was structured and that it makes sense from inside the story, which a lot of people find hard to fit in their worldview.

However, Dany is 13 in AGOT and is married off to a man she found terrifying and who rapes her repeatedly. Compare it to Sansa's marriage to Tyrion (she is more or less the same age, plus minus a few month) and it's fairly clear Tyrion sees her as a child, and a scared child at that.

Someone posted the lines about Dany crying in her pillow not long ago, and I am not sure how anyone can see that for anything but pretty awful rape, and dismissing that out of hand as something that "doesn't fit in my worldview", well, in what world view does marital rape fit? It certainly doesn't seem to be widely accepted or pomoted in Westeros, since Cersei complains to Robert about him hurting her and he's ashamed of it, and that's definitely a marraige without any love in it.

Even so, what makes it difficult to suspend disbelief is that a terrified 13 year old suddenly gets so empowered that she doesn't only turn her entire marriage and sex life around, but she also comes to love her previous rapist. Sure, it *could* happen, but it seems far fetched. And this has nothing to do with my worldview.

EDIT: Then there is also the gratuitous lesbian sex. Why does Dany need another woman to give her a helping hand having a wank? Is she incapable of doing it on her own? As she has spent some time and effort on learning about sex and her body, it should not be rocket science to her, which makes involving another woman seem pointless.

See, it shows when you're typing. Rapist,Rapist, Rapist.You're thinking of Drogo as a rapist. Dany doesn't seem to view Drogo's actions as rape. And it doesn't help that after she overcomes her meekness and confronts him the problem is solved. It's amazing the things you can write off when there's a language barrier and you want to do so. Drogo gave her power for the first time, power to be free of Viserys, I'm not convinced that she didn't like him just for that. But eyeheartsansa said it better than I could anyway.

As for the lesbian sex scene, for some strange reason, a lot of people seem to find sex with a partner more gratifying. Something about being with someone else does that, otherwise we would have been gone a long time ago. And weren't these people former slaves? Even bed slaves? Then I wouldn't be surprised if they did it out of habit.

[Thunderfist]

I believe that most people think about parts of their own body and the bodies of others in various descriptive terms. And I also think that most people really notice when they change their clothes to something very different, especially if the clothes they originally wore didn´t fit them properly or if it was something they felt really uncomfortable in. I really don´t see anything weird about Danys thoughts in this situation, I could see pretty much any person thinking something similar.

[Melifeather]

I dunno...I'm a female and if I was walking around without a bra or anything to hold my breasts in place, I'd definitely be aware of the feeling! LOL

[Ygrain]

/sigh/ Really, watching the world through the prism of sexistic issues brings about some weird stuff. That guy shouldn't be so breast-shy and ask a couple of women how they feel about their breasts, he would undoubtedly arrive at the same result as can be seen here in multiple posts: women are generally aware how their breasts move under the clothes. Myself included.

[Winter's Knight]

I..wow.

I thought we were discussing how internalised male gaze can adversely affect characterisation of female characters? A bit like in comic books.

[Castel]

I..wow.

I thought we were discussing how internalised male gaze can adversely affect characterisation of female characters? A bit like in comic books.

We did, and I think many concluded that the author of the piece had no idea what he was talking about.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I..wow.

I thought we were discussing how internalised male gaze can adversely affect characterisation of female characters? A bit like in comic books.

We were. And I think we (some of us?) concluded that if you read the scene in its proper context, the thing about free-hanging boobs makes sense in a non-sexualized way.

[Lord Littlefinger's Lash]

I..wow. I thought we were discussing how internalised male gaze can adversely affect characterisation of female characters? A bit like in comic books.

it does i'm sure. as all extrapolation from self can be wildly off based because of some implicit and unexamined, implicit, assumptions. For example it wouldn't have occurred to me that Robert raped Cersie or that Drogo raped Dany, because the dynamic isn't one that I generally contemplate.

[Melpomene]

Geez. There are living breathing women out there being treated worse than dirt and millions of little girls being killed in certain parts of the world - and yet here is a fellow making a huge fuss over one little sentence from a fictional book. A sentence that isn't even bad. Really bud, if you want to focus on issues, focus on the real ones.

I mean, heck, I'm a female and I am not fussing. Seems legit enough to me.

And yes, I'm aware of my lady lumps . I mean, you kind of have to be in many ways - need to think about proper comfortable support and all that, as well as making sure they don't poke out anywhere or anything.

[butterbumps!]

I..wow.

I thought we were discussing how internalised male gaze can adversely affect characterisation of female characters? A bit like in comic books.

In my opinion, the Wong guy whose article spurred this picked an example where this is just simply not happening. This is hardly Ingres' La Grande Odalisque or an Adolph Loos interior (he was obsessed with domesticating gaze). There's no sexuality involved in the passage under question, and certainly no fetishization or domestication occurring. If I were writing that passage, I don't know that I'd say anything different than the "small breasts" under debate.

The male gaze isn't that it portrays women incorrectly due to some ignorance of what women are like (I'd call the extraordinary amount of Sansa's flowering blood in the category of clueless). A "gaze" is an issue of ownership, of objectification and domesticating. It's an issue of power, of fetish, of perhaps being aware of a woman as a person, but rebuilding her in your own fantastic image of what you want her to be-- note the Odalisque's coy, come hither stare, and her extra vertebrae for aesthetic effect; she is unthreatening, domesticated and rendered "harmless" by the male gaze. A good comparison is Manet's Olympia, she returns the gaze, she is naked, not nude, and rather than a domestic environment, she is situated in her place of business- she's a prostitute.

Is there a better ASOIAF passage that better illustrates the male gaze?

[Ravenhair]

Hmmm....this thread is among the stranger ones, though it is interesting. I thought the sentence was just a description of how Dany looked that day, but perhaps there is more to it. I don't think about my breasts that much when i walk as long as I have on bra. I certainly think about them if i am bouncing or running because they hurt. Since husband is home, i pose the question to him. Husband says he didn't think about his junk when he walked, until he started wearing boxers and his stuff was swinging around; it took him a while to get used to it.

Husband says, though, that this is GRRM thinking about Dany's breasts, not Dany thinking about her breasts. He says men notice breasts, and that I am totally oblivious to men noticing mine. So husband agrees somewhat with David Wong; I think it's just a description, but husband points out i'm not a heterosexual male.

[Ravenhair]

And I think Irri serviced Dany because she was still in slave mentality.