In Defense of Rhaegar.

[Helgar]

I agree with Lord Over. I don't think he raped her. But I think that if I were Robert, I would hate him just as much as he did. Lyanna was betrothed to another man, a member of a noble House, and Rhaegar was married already, to a member of another noble House, and had two children to take care of, as well as a mad father who burnt people and got a boner for it. And you can't say it was a dilemma. You can't say he had two options laid out before him, took one, and paid the price. Nobody forced him to crown Lyanna in front of his wife, or to run off with her (/kidnap her, depending on which camp you're on) afterwards, or to refuse to return her afterwards, at least as a token of apology for the deaths of Rickard and Brandon in a final attempt to prevent the impending war.

Rhaegar for me is unforgivable. I am not interested in how pretty he was or how well he sang or how sad and solemn and talented he was. I just hate that he put his own libido(/love for prophecy) before his wife, the honor of his House, the honor of two other great Houses and the safety of Westeros.

[Milcov]

Nor do we know that he didn't consult Elia, in fact he probably did. In the House of the Undying we see Rhaegar saying to Elia that "the dragon has three heads" roughly translated as "I need another baby", while they both know that Elia cannot have another child. Had Rhaegar been the giant douche who put the prophecy before everything he'd have had another baby with Elia, which would kill her (Nissa Nissa?). And it wasn't Rhaegar who killed Rickard and Brandon, or who called for Robert and Eddard, nor was it Rhaegar who called his banners in response.

[Lord Over]

Please listen to yourself AOM, because I detest when people do not read my posts and answer using strawmen arguement and it leads to unfortunate replies down the road. Though Helgar has written a well-thought addendum to my post, I shall go into detail:

1) Didn't take permission does not, in this case, mean taking permission from Elia but from the Starks. We know that the Starks were NOT in on the whole 'star crossed lovers' deal. So even if Lyanna was Rhaegar's one and only bestest, truest, smoochiest love, it's still a slap in the face. This is not your modern world where a woman's consent is all that's needed, this is Westeros where a Lady's honor reflects on her household. This was not some common whore or commoner, this was a daughter of one of the Seven kingdoms! There are rules, channels and customs to uphold. This is akin to me stealing your daughter to make out in the woods and then stepping out to find that you called out the cops on me and saying 'Woah woah, it's your fault for overreacting'

2) Called their bannerman in response? I'm sorry, but this is a laughably misinformed chidlish defense of Rhaegar. At this point, it was flat-out self defense. Check the timeline. Lyanna was kidnapped (or went off to play hanky panky), at this point Robert did NOT call his bannerman. Then Brandon and Rickard were killed and Robert STILL not called his bannerman. It was only when Mad King Aerys declared open season on Ned and Robert that all bets were off and I, for one, support their move. By this point in time, news of this HAD to have reached Rhaegar who was probably resting his head on Lyanna's lap saying "Let them eat cake", there were still instances where he could and should have tried to calm the situation, but he didn't.

3) Rhaegar may have very well acted to fulfill the prophecy, but I can't help but make the comparison between Supervillains who sprout 'how the common people have to be sacrificed' for the greater good. When you look at the big picture, you often find yourself ignoring the little details, an argument immortalized by Varys' line "who suffers the most when you high lords play your game of thrones?". What's a few ten thousand people dying, long as I get my hot new concubine to bear me the promised prince? The End justifies the means, no?

I do have to say one thing, if Jon Snow really is Rhaegar's son than I am glad he is a man of duty and honor, forsaking his own happines in the forms of love, money, freedom and glory to do what's right. Something Rhaegar never did.

Makes you think what kind of man Ned is, in comparison to Rhaegar, no?

[jarl the climber]

What else could Ned have told him? What could explain her death without endangering Lyanna's and Rhaegar's child? And if Robert were ever to find out Ned could ask for mercy saying the child did not choose his birth.

Did Ned agree with the statement about her being raped. Did he ever express any animosity towards Rhaegar? Obviously he did not have the animosity towards the remaining Targaryeans that Robert did. Robert might not be great intellectual but he could probaly read between the lines. Nobody who knew Rhaegar would think him capable of doing that, the 2 statements he made did not add up. If he really thought that Rhaegar was in hell why did he think he was with Lyanna?

[GreyDeLeon]

Whether he raped her is irrelevant. He took what wasn't his, he never even bothered asking and he brazenly crowned her in front of the masses disregarding his poor wife's feelings. Then he leaves his wife and children to hump furiously in a secluded tower and doesn't even try to fix the situation whilst the whole of Westeros burns.

Like many of his line, Rhaegar was a self-centered tool.

I doubt Lyanna could be taken by force without some form of protest on her part. She was taken in a public place, if she were to resist I'm sure they're were plenty around to help. If she went willingly now its easier to move around without drawing suspicion..

I agree with Lord Over. I don't think he raped her. But I think that if I were Robert, I would hate him just as much as he did. Lyanna was betrothed to another man, a member of a noble House, and Rhaegar was married already, to a member of another noble House, and had two children to take care of, as well as a mad father who burnt people and got a boner for it. And you can't say it was a dilemma. You can't say he had two options laid out before him, took one, and paid the price. Nobody forced him to crown Lyanna in front of his wife, or to run off with her (/kidnap her, depending on which camp you're on) afterwards, or to refuse to return her afterwards, at least as a token of apology for the deaths of Rickard and Brandon in a final attempt to prevent the impending war.

Rhaegar for me is unforgivable. I am not interested in how pretty he was or how well he sang or how sad and solemn and talented he was. I just hate that he put his own libido(/love for prophecy) before his wife, the honor of his House, the honor of two other great Houses and the safety of Westeros.

And it maybe that Lyanna was pregnant and if she were to have gone back home pregnant would her family allow her to keep the child or her life? Knowing Rhaegar I doubt he'd let his children be in any danger

[GreyDeLeon]

Did Ned agree with the statement about her being raped. Did he ever express any animosity towards Rhaegar? Obviously he did not have the animosity towards the remaining Targaryeans that Robert did. Robert might not be great intellectual but he could probaly read between the lines. Nobody who knew Rhaegar would think him capable of doing that, the 2 statements he made did not add up. If he really thought that Rhaegar was in hell why did he think he was with Lyanna?

He never disagreed or let Robert believe otherwise. He just told him its done the Targaryeans are dead. Ned never did express any towards Rhaegar but I believe that was the cost he paid he dishonored and dead mans name, lied about the relationship or feeling Lyanna might have had for Rhaegar, and about what accord at the ToJ in order to protect Jon. Robert rarely read between the lines he avoided the sentence how many times did he just avoid hid duties and went out hunting, or fold when Cersei or his council told him what was the best course of action. Other than Ned about Dany. Robert on his death bed also said he'd be with Lyanna also I just think he meant that they were both dead together.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

The worst thing in Lyanna's life would have been to marry Robert Baratheon. Sure, he would have loved her exclusively for a fortnight. Maybe even a few months, but the time would come when he began eyeing a tavern girl or one of Lyanna's handmaidens. Lyanna didn't seem like the type to just sit around knitting in Storm's End while her husband was disrespected her all over the Seven Kingdoms.

Lyanna didn't want an absentee husband or to be made a fool of. Say what you will of Rhaegar...he was a romantic. A beautiful, sensitive man with the soul of a poet. A forlorn heart. We don't know for sure but every clue GRRM has given us points to Lyanna falling for him, which was easy to do. Even frigid bitch Cersei was in love with him despite her obsession with Jaime.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Also, when we lose someone we tend to love them more and the memory of them haunts us. Robert's view of Lyanna comes from the fact of losing her in such a way. His ego could never grasp that maybe she didn't WANT him. Also because she died he always had the spectre of her in his mind, even during his marriage to Cersei who had to compete with a ghost.

As I said before, if Lyanna married Robert it would not have been a happy marriage. He would have cheated on her and neglect her.

[Mr Stereo1]

And it wasn't Rhaegar who killed Rickard and Brandon, or who called for Robert and Eddard, nor was it Rhaegar who called his banners in response.

Rhaegar wasn't the one who called for their deaths, but if he was really as omni-talented as he was made out to be, then he would surely be able to predict that there would be consequences to running off with the daughter of a great house in circumstances that could easily be taken to indicate rape. Either he planned for a horrific civil war likely causing the death and ruin of Lyanna's family, or he either didn't expect it or considered taking Lyanna for some purpose to be more important, indicating a certain... disconnection from reality.

I honestly don't see how the events as explained in the novels can be seen as the act of a sane mind. All it would have taken to avoid turning the situation from horrible catastrophe to very bad would be a letter, and a short trip to King's Landing. Lord Rickard was evidently willing to pay a ransom for his son's return, and discuss the situation with the King without resorting to war, while Robert remained in the Vale during this period. By that point, if Lyanna was happy with her situation, don't you think all Rhaegar would have needed to do would be to let Lyanna talk with her father and, if he was romantically attached, marry her as per his house's polygamy tradition?

I doubt Lyanna could be taken by force without some form of protest on here part. She was taken in a public place, if she were to resist I'm sure they're were plenty around to help. If she went willingly now its easier to move around without drawing suspicion..

If you think she was the mystery knight at the tourney, which admittedly isn't outright stated, then we can assume she was able to slip away from any guards placed on her by her father reasonably easily.Considering she was noted to be a talented rider, I don't think it would be outside of the question for her to have gone riding on her own.We're likely never going to know for sure unless GRRM decides to host a massive no-holes-barred Q&A session at the end of the series, but as I've said earlier in this thread, I think the scope was there for an abduction without witnesses.

While the lack of detail on what happened to her until the Tower of Joy scene leaves us only able to speculate, again considering the number of plots we've seen executed in secret over the course of the series, it would seem within the realms of possibility for the crown prince to move someone undetected across the kingdom, especially if the abduction/elopement was pre-planned.Rhaegar could have threatened to kill witnesses if she tried to convince someone to help her, and simply avoided groups too large for him to sucessfully carry out his threat during the course of the journey. He could have rode crosscountry to Maidenpool and taken ship to Dorne. He could even have taken a boat across the God's Eye and downriver to King's Landing.

I agree that it was unlikely Rhaegar would have taken her from a public place against her will, and I would consider it decent evidence she agreed to elope with him if we ever find out that's what happened, although there's still the possibility she simply agreed to go riding with him and found herself unable to escape once she discovered his plans. .

And it maybe that Lyanna was pregnant and if she were to have gone back home pregnant would her family allow her to keep the child or her life? Knowing Rhaegar I doubt he'd let his children be in any danger

If she wanted to keep the child, I imagine so. Ned at least would do everything in his power to keep it safe. While we know very little about Rickard or Brandon senior, every born-Stark we see in the series values family before honour when forced to make a direct choice, even Jon Snow when you remember he was ready to leave the Wall until his new 'brothers' convinced him to stay.

[Milcov]

Please listen to yourself AOM, because I detest when people do not read my posts and answer using strawmen arguement and it leads to unfortunate replies down the road. Though Helgar has written a well-thought addendum to my post, I shall go into detail:

Sorry, anything using the words "got a boner for it" isn't that well written. And my reply regarding Elia was mainly over Helgar's post.

1) Didn't take permission does not, in this case, mean taking permission from Elia but from the Starks. We know that the Starks were NOT in on the whole 'star crossed lovers' deal. So even if Lyanna was Rhaegar's one and only bestest, truest, smoochiest love, it's still a slap in the face. This is not your modern world where a woman's consent is all that's needed, this is Westeros where a Lady's honor reflects on her household. This was not some common whore or commoner, this was a daughter of one of the Seven kingdoms! There are rules, channels and customs to uphold. This is akin to me stealing your daughter to make out in the woods and then stepping out to find that you called out the cops on me and saying 'Woah woah, it's your fault for overreacting'

Rhaegar and Lyanna running off (if they did) indicates stupidity on both parts, or if Rhaegar kidnapped her then it's his stupidity. However it isn't war-starting stupidity providing Lyanna wasn't harmed. It went against customs yes and as such wasn't a well thought out thing to do. Your daughter analogy only holds if Rhaegar kidnapped her, something which we don't know happened. Rhaegar was otherwise a fairly smart guy and the Starks would have been placated had Lyanna explained it, Robert also probably would. He certainly wouldn't be able to rebel without Aerys doing what he did.

2) Called their bannerman in response? I'm sorry, but this is a laughably misinformed chidlish defense of Rhaegar. At this point, it was flat-out self defense. Check the timeline. Lyanna was kidnapped (or went off to play hanky panky), at this point Robert did NOT call his bannerman. Then Brandon and Rickard were killed and Robert STILL not called his bannerman. It was only when Mad King Aerys declared open season on Ned and Robert that all bets were off and I, for one, support their move. By this point in time, news of this HAD to have reached Rhaegar who was probably resting his head on Lyanna's lap saying "Let them eat cake", there were still instances where he could and should have tried to calm the situation, but he didn't.

I don't understand your point. I was simply saying that Rhaegar didn't directly start the war, and can't be held responsible for it as many other totally unnecessary actions took place afterwards. Namely, Brandon shouting off in Kings Landing, Aerys burning Rickard and Brandon, Aerys calling for Eddard and Robert, and then finally Jon Arryn calling his banners in open defiance. That's a pretty good set of reasons as to why Rhaegar isn't responsible for the war, if Aerys didn't do what he did, or even if Brandon had reacted in a saner manner then it would never have reached war. And we have no idea whether Rhaegar and Lyanna knew about things, the internet isn't around so it depends on word from Aerys or Jon Arryn. Aerys who suspected Rhaegar of plotting to overthrow him and Jon who was declaring war on the Targaryens. He may have found out far too late.

3) Rhaegar may have very well acted to fulfill the prophecy, but I can't help but make the comparison between Supervillains who sprout 'how the common people have to be sacrificed' for the greater good. When you look at the big picture, you often find yourself ignoring the little details, an argument immortalized by Varys' line "who suffers the most when you high lords play your game of thrones?". What's a few ten thousand people dying, long as I get my hot new concubine to bear me the promised prince? The End justifies the means, no?

Tell me where in Rhaegar's plans were loads of common people sacrificed? As far as we know he didn't kill anyone running away with Lyanna and he certainly wasn't planning on the war. The only person who Rhaegar was planning to be removed was Aerys, and it's doubtful he was planning on killing him. Without intending to be rude, this point is ridiculous as there's no way Rhaegar genuinely foresaw thousands dying for Lyanna (how could he predict the actions of a Brandon, Aerys and Jon?).

I do have to say one thing, if Jon Snow really is Rhaegar's son than I am glad he is a man of duty and honor, forsaking his own happines in the forms of love, money, freedom and glory to do what's right. Something Rhaegar never did.

Makes you think what kind of man Ned is, in comparison to Rhaegar, no?

Rhaegar did everything (but one) by what he thought he had to do. If there's one thing his actions show in the limited samples we have of him he is a man of duty:

1. Becoming a warrior, he was bookish and never trained as a warrior until he thought he was The Prince that was Promised. He then dedicated himself to becoming a great warrior, despite always preferring music.

2. Lyanna, he thought the dragon needed 3 heads. He knew Elia couldn't give birth to a child and live*, so he had his third child by Lyanna.

3. The Trident, Rhaegar doesn't seem to be that bloodthirsty or love battles. He went out and fought his fathers battle because it was his duty to do so.

Onto the one thing he didn't do which he had to, that was deposing his father. He says to Jaime he knows that he had to do it yet had waited too long. That's when he hesitated.

* I think Rhaegar must have changed his mind about being PTWP sometime around then because if he did think he was, then Elia dying in childbirth would be symbolic of Nissa Nissa (this assumes PTWP=AA), clearly he doesn't believe this otherwise if he was so obsessed with prophecy then he'd have Elia get pregnant again. Either that or Rhaegar just didn't have it in him to know his actions would case Elia to die.

[Milcov]

Rhaegar wasn't the one who called for their deaths, but if he was really as omni-talented as he was made out to be, then he would surely be able to predict that there would be consequences to running off with the daughter of a great house in circumstances that could easily be taken to indicate rape. Either he planned for a horrific civil war likely causing the death and ruin of Lyanna's family, or he either didn't expect it or considered taking Lyanna for some purpose to be more important, indicating a certain... disconnection from reality.

I honestly don't see how the events as explained in the novels can be seen as the act of a sane mind. All it would have taken to avoid turning the situation from horrible catastrophe to very bad would be a letter, and a short trip to King's Landing. Lord Rickard was evidently willing to pay a ransom for his son's return, and discuss the situation with the King without resorting to war, while Robert remained in the Vale during this period. By that point, if Lyanna was happy with her situation, don't you think all Rhaegar would have needed to do would be to let Lyanna talk with her father and, if he was romantically attached, marry her as per his house's polygamy tradition?

He was talented, not a green seer, hard to predict the actions of Brandon and Aerys, arguably the only predictable one was Jon Arryn's.

[Mr Stereo1]

The worst thing in Lyanna's life would have been to marry Robert Baratheon. Sure, he would have loved her exclusively for a fortnight. Maybe even a few months, but the time would come when he began eyeing a tavern girl or one of Lyanna's handmaidens. Lyanna didn't seem like the type to just sit around knitting in Storm's End while her husband was disrespected her all over the Seven Kingdoms.

Lyanna didn't want an absentee husband or to be made a fool of. Say what you will of Rhaegar...he was a romantic. A beautiful, sensitive man with the soul of a poet. A forlorn heart. We don't know for sure but every clue GRRM has given us points to Lyanna falling for him, which was easy to do. Even frigid bitch Cersei was in love with him despite her obsession with Jaime.

Robert wouldn't have been a good husband, I agree, but I'm not sure if Lyanna would have eloped for that reason. She could well have objected in private, in which case she might not have told Ned to spare his feelings, eloping from that high level a match in her culture would be like a man refusing to go into battle as far as I understand it. To quote from the OP:

"Robert will never keep to one bed," Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their

father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm's End. "I hear he has gotten a child on some

girl in the Vale." Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his

sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a

good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. "Love is sweet,

dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man's nature" pg 252 GoT

To me, Lyanna feels resigned in this passage. I doubt she was looking forward to being humiliated by Robert's infidelity for the rest of her life, but while it's a short section this is also the only evidence we have on Lyanna's feelings, and I don't see any hints that she's planning to run away from the marriage. Certainly though, if she didn't know what happened to her brother or father or didn't think Rhaegar was responsible, then I could see Lyanna falling for him in isolation.

He was talented, not a green seer, hard to predict the actions of Brandon and Aerys, arguably the only predictable one was Jon Arryn's.

While I can't remember any mention on whether Rhaegar had ever met Brandon in the books, I would expect a perceptive person to have a decent grasp of their own father's instability. Most people would be able to predict that the Starks would have at the very least investigated into what happened to Lyanna, and that they would end up in King's Landing at some point to address the King. Unless they were outright told it was consensual, a certain amount of outrage and hostility could be expected as well, if not the downright aggression Brandon showed.

While these things don't always mesh well into fantasy settings, I wonder whether Rhaegar was a high-functioning autistic. He's described as being very talented, but he makes some very strange decisions that show a bad understanding of human behaviour even taking belief in the prophecy into account, and it might explain why he took the prophecy so literally. (Also, why he never seemed to notice Jon Connington's infatuation with him.)

[Dragonfish]

I honestly don't see how the events as explained in the novels can be seen as the act of a sane mind. All it would have taken to avoid turning the situation from horrible catastrophe to very bad would be a letter, and a short trip to King's Landing. Lord Rickard was evidently willing to pay a ransom for his son's return, and discuss the situation with the King without resorting to war, while Robert remained in the Vale during this period. By that point, if Lyanna was happy with her situation, don't you think all Rhaegar would have needed to do would be to let Lyanna talk with her father and, if he was romantically attached, marry her as per his house's polygamy tradition?

What says Rhaegar or Lyanna didn't send a letter to Rickard? We have absolutely no indication what Rickard knew or was told regarding their situation. He died before he could say or do anything about it.

[Dragonfish]

Whether he raped her is irrelevant. He took what wasn't his, he never even bothered asking

Actually, it's entirely possible he did ask, but was rejected (either by Rickard or Aerys).

But regardless, it's interesting how Rhaegar-haters tend to downplay Lyanna's role in all of this, and tend to talk about her as if she was an object that was "stolen" by Rhaegar. When you state Rhaegar never bothered "asking" before he "took" Lyanna, you're not saying he never asked Lyanna, you're saying he never asked the people who "owned" her. Needless to say, this line of argument makes me very uncomfortable.

Now, I know what you're going to say: you yourself don't think of Lyanna as an object, you're just talking about things from the perspective of the Westerosi's own attitudes. This is all well and good, but there's a major problem with this argument: as the Crown Prince, Rhaegar owned everthing in the kingdom, and he therefore "owned" Lyanna and had every right to take her if he wanted her. Now, I of course don't believe in this attitude myself, and I don't think that's the attitude Rhaegar took. The only reason I'm bringing this up is to point out that your own tendency to downplay the role of Lyanna's desires is founded on a premise that would actually lead to the conclusion that Rhaegar was in the right when he "took" her. Now, your own modern attitudes might still lead you to think he wasn't in the right, but then you'd have to abandon your premise of looking at things through the attitudes of a Westerosi, and along with it the conclusion that he "took what wasn't his without even asking."

and he brazenly crowned her in front of the masses disregarding his poor wife's feelings.

We have no indication how Elia felt about the whole thing. As far as we can tell, there's was purely a marriage of convenience, and while they may have liked one another, there's nothing to say Elia loved him and would be hurt by his wanting another woman (especially since, as a Dornishwoman, she'd have a more laid back view of extra-marital affairs).

Then he leaves his wife and children to hump furiously in a secluded tower and doesn't even try to fix the situation whilst the whole of Westeros burns.

He was gone for only a few months (which can easily be explained by his being out of touch), and when he came back he did try to fix things.

[Lyanna Stark]

2) Called their bannerman in response? I'm sorry, but this is a laughably misinformed chidlish defense of Rhaegar. At this point, it was flat-out self defense. Check the timeline. Lyanna was kidnapped (or went off to play hanky panky), at this point Robert did NOT call his bannerman. Then Brandon and Rickard were killed and Robert STILL not called his bannerman. It was only when Mad King Aerys declared open season on Ned and Robert that all bets were off and I, for one, support their move. By this point in time, news of this HAD to have reached Rhaegar who was probably resting his head on Lyanna's lap saying "Let them eat cake", there were still instances where he could and should have tried to calm the situation, but he didn't.

You do realise that Mad Aerys mistrusted Rhaegar and thought he was plotting with various bannermen to usurp his father, right? There are several hints that some sort of plotting was going to take place at the tourney at Harrenhal, which Aerys attended despite rarely going out at all.

Rhaegar was the crown prince, but he was like everyone else, completely at the mercy of his mad father. This is something people often forget. It's not far fetched that Aerys would eventually have turned on Rhaegar. He had another son after all: Viserys.

Your claims that Rhaegar could have done something to stop Aerys is doubtful. We hear as much from Jaime's POV where Rhaegar is expressing doubts and seems to let on that there was something he wanted to do, but never got around to but that he would deal with it once he came back. There has been a lot of theorising that Rhaegar planned to overtake his father's rule and displace Aerys and in light of what went down, it makes complete sense.

[Mr Stereo1]

What says Rhaegar or Lyanna didn't send a letter to Rickard? We have absolutely no indication what Rickard knew or was told regarding their situation. He died before he could say or do anything about it.

To the best of my knowledge (admittedly I'm away from my books at the moment so I'm going from the wiki here) Maester Ludwin delivered all of Catelyn Stark's children, and since Maesters are bound to specific castles for the entirity of their careers, I took that to mean he was Maester of Winterfell since Rickard Stark's time. If Lyanna and Rhaeger eloped consensually and left a letter, then I thought he would know, and would then tell Ned. Since GRRM plays fair with his readers, I'd assume something like this would have been mentioned in the books if a POV character knew about it.

[David Selig]

Now, I know what you're going to say: you yourself don't think of Lyanna as an object, you're just talking about things from the perspective of the Westerosi's own attitudes. This is all well and good, but there's a major problem with this argument: as the Crown Prince, Rhaegar owned everthing in the kingdom, and he therefore "owned" Lyanna and had every right to take her if he wanted her.

Actually Rhaegar didn't own anything (except Dragonstone), he was a prince, not a King. Besides, I don't think the Westeros monarchy is absolutist to such a degree that everything in the realm is considered property of the monarch.

[Milcov]

While I can't remember any mention on whether Rhaegar had ever met Brandon in the books, I would expect a perceptive person to have a decent grasp of their own father's instability. Most people would be able to predict that the Starks would have at the very least investigated into what happened to Lyanna, and that they would end up in King's Landing at some point to address the King. Unless they were outright told it was consensual, a certain amount of outrage and hostility could be expected as well, if not the downright aggression Brandon showed.

While these things don't always mesh well into fantasy settings, I wonder whether Rhaegar was a high-functioning autistic. He's described as being very talented, but he makes some very strange decisions that show a bad understanding of human behaviour even taking belief in the prophecy into account, and it might explain why he took the prophecy so literally. (Also, why he never seemed to notice Jon Connington's infatuation with him.)

Well Brandon was at the Tourney at Harrenhal and it'd make sense for Rhaegar the heir to the Iron Throne to meet Brandon the heir to Winterfell. He also knew very well that his father was a bit mad, but there's a difference between being very paranoid and burning a Lord of a great house and his heir, and then calling for the heads of another two Lords of great houses. That's very unpredictable behaviour, even if he fully expected Brandon to waltz into Kings Landing and ask for Rhaegar's head, which I doubt.

He isn't the only person to take prophecies seriously, I can think of 2 other Targaryens, Stannis, Melisandre and then Cersei off the top of my head. It's a very superstitious place, Mance believed in the Horn of Joramum tearing down the Wall. I don't think we have enough to call Rhaegar autistic, though it's certainly plausible, but it's equally if not more plausible that he wasn't.

[corbon]

To the best of my knowledge (admittedly I'm away from my books at the moment so I'm going from the wiki here) Maester Ludwin delivered all of Catelyn Stark's children, and since Maesters are bound to specific castles for the entirity of their careers, I took that to mean he was Maester of Winterfell since Rickard Stark's time.

No. Maester Walys (IIRC the name, a Lannister in fact) was Rickard's Maester according to Lady Barbery.

I believe Maester Luwin delivered Robb at Riverrun and presumably came north with Catelyn later (remember Ned got to Winterfell with Jon before Catelyn arrived with Robb).

And there are subtle indications that the Maesters may not be as reliable as the Lords generally believe. They have their own agenda. So even if there was a continuity of Maester from Rickard to Eddard (which there was not) it is not at all certain that Eddard would have received the whole truth.

[corbon]

1) Didn't take permission does not, in this case, mean taking permission from Elia but from the Starks. We know that the Starks were NOT in on the whole 'star crossed lovers' deal.

Actually, we don't know this at all. We know only Brandon's response and we don't even know exactly what he was responding to (was he told the truth and went nuts, or was he lied to and went nuts, we have no idea - we don't even know who told him!). We know nothing at all of what Rickard knew, agreed with, refused or was ignorant of.

So even if Lyanna was Rhaegar's one and only bestest, truest, smoochiest love, it's still a slap in the face. This is not your modern world where a woman's consent is all that's needed, this is Westeros where a Lady's honor reflects on her household. This was not some common whore or commoner, this was a daughter of one of the Seven kingdoms! There are rules, channels and customs to uphold. This is akin to me stealing your daughter to make out in the woods and then stepping out to find that you called out the cops on me and saying 'Woah woah, it's your fault for overreacting'

Well, yes. Its (at least in the face of it) a slap in your face.

To which there is an acceptable and expected level of response to the insult and injury. Following due process. Attempting to steal her back even.

But when you go beyond these, as Brandon did, then yes, "woah woah, its your fault for over-reacting". If someone punches you in a bar, and you attempt to gut them with a knife in response, you don't get 'he started it' as a defense. You go to jail. The punch-er probably does not.

3) Rhaegar may have very well acted to fulfill the prophecy, but I can't help but make the comparison between Supervillains who sprout 'how the common people have to be sacrificed' for the greater good. When you look at the big picture, you often find yourself ignoring the little details, an argument immortalized by Varys' line "who suffers the most when you high lords play your game of thrones?". What's a few ten thousand people dying, long as I get my hot new concubine to bear me the promised prince? The End justifies the means, no?

Except that that is a fallacious argument. Rhaegar did not start a war. No one that we know of dies as a direct result of Rhaegar's actions. It takes other people over-reacting, several times on both sides, before a war starts.

Rhaegar wasn't the one who called for their deaths, but if he was really as omni-talented as he was made out to be, then he would surely be able to predict that there would be consequences to running off with the daughter of a great house in circumstances that could easily be taken to indicate rape. Either he planned for a horrific civil war likely causing the death and ruin of Lyanna's family, or he either didn't expect it or considered taking Lyanna for some purpose to be more important, indicating a certain... disconnection from reality.

Again, fallacious.

Yes, there were consequences to be expected, and it seems at least in part that he/they planned for them. One of the likely consequences (given Brandon's wild blood) is an attempt to take Lyanna back. That never happened because by disappearing Rhaegar and Lyanna prevented it. That really leaves the only possible response that could achieve anything from the Northern side as being due process and an appeal to Aerys, which means people talking rather than fighting, and probably some reparations etc down the line when it becomes apparent after Rhaegar and Lyanna re-emerge that Lyanna is well beyond being returned (married and pregnant or with a child already).

We don't know if they made further plans and efforts or not. We don't know if Rickard ever received a letter from them for example (quite possible and quite reasonable), or even through a series of Ravens agreed to the marriage (seems very fanciful to me, but is not precluded by the facts as we know them).

Clearly he didn't plan for a horrific civil war, nor to cause the ruin of Lyanna's family. And there wasn't a horrific civil war due to his actions. It was Brandon's escalating response, which was stupid and useless and not at all forseeable and then Aerys' double escalation, which was also not forseen by anyone (note that Aerys was increasingly unstable and paranoid since Duskendale but was still functioning and not clearly insane at this stage - it is the murders of Rickard and Brandon which mark a significant upscale in his level of madness) which created the civil war.

I honestly don't see how the events as explained in the novels can be seen as the act of a sane mind. All it would have taken to avoid turning the situation from horrible catastrophe to very bad would be a letter, and a short trip to King's Landing. Lord Rickard was evidently willing to pay a ransom for his son's return, and discuss the situation with the King without resorting to war, while Robert remained in the Vale during this period.

As noted, we don't know there wasn't a letter. ANd the not-sane mind isn't Rhaegars. Rickard is still clearly willing to come to KL well after Rhaegar's actions. The not-sane mind is Aerys' (which no one knew quite how bad) and to a lesser extent Brandon's (not that he was insane, but it was a stupid and useless response that could not possibly achieve anything but make things worse).

By that point, if Lyanna was happy with her situation, don't you think all Rhaegar would have needed to do would be to let Lyanna talk with her father and, if he was romantically attached, marry her as per his house's polygamy tradition?

First, who is to say he didn't (through raven).

But even if he did, it is not necessarily true that Rickard would have agreed. Maybe he would, maybe he would not, assuming he was even asked.

Second, He also needs Aerys' approval, which he is unlikely to get. Aerys is already known to distrust Rhaegar and also distrust the politicing of the great Lords (that is supposedly why he came to Harrenhal, the first time he'd left KL since Duskendale). Aerys is also the one who chose Elia Martell as Rhaegar's first wife. So there is a fairly strong case that Aerys would likely have disapproved of any marraige to Lyanna and that Rhaegar and Lyanna disappearing is as much to forestall any response for Aerys as from the Starks.

it would seem within the realms of possibility for the crown prince to move someone undetected across the kingdom, especially if the abduction/elopement was pre-planned.Rhaegar could have threatened to kill witnesses if she tried to convince someone to help her, and simply avoided groups too large for him to sucessfully carry out his threat during the course of the journey. He could have rode crosscountry to Maidenpool and taken ship to Dorne. He could even have taken a boat across the God's Eye and downriver to King's Landing.

Indeed. It isn't hard to move small groups right across the 7 kingdoms if one tries. Catelyn made it all the way to KL, and nearly back again, incognito (from most at least). However travelling takes significant time, and there is little or no communication possible while travelling (especially if one is avoiding castles where ravens might call).

What this actually means is that it is not t all surprising to see Rhaegar and Lyanna travelling and/or isolated at ToJ for several months before they know of anything happening - and by that time the banners have already been called, and probably the first battles fought!

To me, Lyanna feels resigned in this passage. I doubt she was looking forward to being humiliated by Robert's infidelity for the rest of her life, but while it's a short section this is also the only evidence we have on Lyanna's feelings, and I don't see any hints that she's planning to run away from the marriage. Certainly though, if she didn't know what happened to her brother or father or didn't think Rhaegar was responsible, then I could see Lyanna falling for him in isolation.

Agreed she sounds resigned. But its not the only passage we have on Lyanna's feelings. It is the only passage we have on her feelings for Robert but we also see her crying over Rhaegar's sad song at Harrenhal (teenage tomboy turns mushy and weepy at dreamboat young mans sad song - what does that suggest?) and clutching faded blue roses (as given to her by Rhaegar) on her deathbed.

And almost certainly if she fell for him it was a long time before anything happened to her father and brother.

Note that Rhaegar was instructed by Aerys to find the KotLT, whom Aerys was wroth with, at Harrnehal. Rhaegar claims to fail, then gives Lyanna the Crown. It seems likely that he did in fact find the KotLT and admired and respected her actions, courage and honour, at least (we don't know about love yet) back then. And they may have had other opportnities to get acquainted in the following weeks and months, we don't know.

While I can't remember any mention on whether Rhaegar had ever met Brandon in the books, I would expect a perceptive person to have a decent grasp of their own father's instability. Most people would be able to predict that the Starks would have at the very least investigated into what happened to Lyanna, and that they would end up in King's Landing at some point to address the King. Unless they were outright told it was consensual, a certain amount of outrage and hostility could be expected as well, if not the downright aggression Brandon showed.

Rhaegar beat Brandon in the lists at Harrenhal (and Brandon was supposedly a better lance than Ned, and almost as good a rider as Lyanna), but we don't know if they ever actual met properly.

But Aery's instability took a major step up after Rhaegar's 'abduction' of Lyanna. Before theurder of Rickard and Brandon he was functioning relatively normally, if somewhat paranoid and distrustful of even Rhaegar. It does not sound to me to be a fair claim to insist that Rhaegar coudl predict Aerys's madness would take a major step upward.

But yes, outrage and hostility could be expected. But with Rhaegar and Lyanna gone, and no one knowing where, going further than outrage and hostility is not productive. You expect people to be angry, but if acting out that anger beyond the normal lines does nothing good and olenty bad for them, you don't expect them to be that stupid.