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Joy Hill and the Westerlings


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Sorry, I know I'm on about the Westerlings a lot lately, but the more I look at them, the more I find that some things don't add up.

One of those being Joy Hill.

When Tywin and Tyrion are discussing the aftermath of the Red Wedding, Tywin mentions that Joy's supposed to marry one of Walder Frey's bastards. A bastard wed to a bastard. Fast forward to Feast, and now it seems like Joy is supposed to marry one of the Westerling boys. Sybell remembers the phrasing as being that Tywin said "they would have joy of him," and it makes sense that yes, he did mean Joy Hill.

For one thing, if the Lannister-Westerling alliance was as well cemented as some people think (going so far as to suggest that Tywin rigged the marriage entirely), why was Joy first promised to one of Walder's bastards? That in and of itself suggests that the negotiations with the Westerlings came later, not earlier. Joy to Raynald or Rollam was not the original plan.

For another, as Sybell gracefully notes, it's an insult to the Westerlings for them to marry a bastard. If the Westerlings had really been "in on it" for a long time, and had actually given proper assistance in betraying Robb, why "reward" them with such a shoddy marriage? What if the "payment" for Joy was actually something that Tywin considered ... cheap? Remember that when Sybell explains the "plot" to Jaime, she does so 1. after Tywin is dead and he can't refute her and 2. knowing that Jaime is pretty ignorant of what the actual terms were. What if the Westerlings' real "betrayal" was making sure that Jeyne wouldn't have Robb's baby? You don't promise your bastard niece to a house that actually did you a valuable service. You do that if they're late to the party, didn't do that much in actuality and are only doing you a cursory favor.

Sybell suggests that it was Tywin's plan all along and that she gave Jeyne a contraceptive. But again, there's nothing but her word, and Tywin can't corroborate it. If Joy was considered a proper "reward," perhaps Tywin knew that the Westerlings' cooperation had never been solid, and it was a last-ditch effort to keep Jeyne from getting/staying pregnant and giving birth that earned them that marriage, not any real "betrayal" before the Red Wedding. Intuitively, helping out for a longer period of time should have been good for far more. Also note that if simply keeping Jeyne from having a baby was the later agreement, maybe even agreed to after the Red Wedding, Sybell did not need to have been giving Jeyne moon tea regularly to achieve that. See: Lysa and Hoster Tully.

Speaking of the Red Wedding. When Tywin explains the plot to Tyrion (where he mentions Joy's betrothal to a Frey bastard), he makes no mentions of the Westerlings at all. Later, when Tommen pardons some of Robb's bannermen, the Westerlings are mentioned, but only in passing. Nothing specific about their role is mentioned. The Westerlings lost one son at the Red Wedding and could very easily have lost another, if Robb had brought Rollam. The decision to leave Rollam behind appears to be one Robb made himself. It's not like the Westerlings asked for him to stay behind, and Rollam appeared to be upset over it. Yet these people were supposedly in on it from very early on? I don't buy it.

If they had been in league with Tywin early or from the beginning, why did they just not kill Robb (they could even lie to his men and say he died of his wounds) when he was at the Crag? (Kudos to Jarl the Climber for asking this first.) Tywin acts like the Red Wedding was necessary because it was otherwise nearly impossible to kill Robb. Yet the Westerlings had him in a very vulnerable position. The reward for killing Robb at that point would have been immense. But they didn't. Why? Because at that time, they were not in league with Tywin. When did they get in league with Tywin? I'd argue that it was actually much later than many people believe — not until after the Red Wedding, when they were pardoned and given the marriage option(s) in exchange for Jeyne never giving birth to Robb's child.

So why would Sybell put on for Jaime — who, again, would have been ignorant of any planning — and insinuate that their involvement was deeper than it really was?

1. By then Tywin was dead. Possible that Sybell hoped to get a better deal out of Jaime than she got out of his father, by inflating the Westerlings' role. For all we know, the "lords or heirs" thing was never promised at all, and Sybell's just grasping to see what she can get. Obviously that didn't work out that well.

2. If Jeyne had actually escaped by then (my theory), if Sybell laid it on thick that she'd been working with the Lannisters all along, it would give Jaime less of a reason to be skeptical of the girl in front of him.

3. Sybell wasn't actually "putting on" at all. She only says that Tywin asked her to make sure Jeyne didn't give birth, and people assume that this means that the "fertility potions" were actually moon tea. BUT, if this order came after the Red Wedding, that doesn't necessarily have to be the case. In that instance, it's just Sybell, who's an ambitious woman wanting to ingratiate herself to the victor, wanting more for preventing Jeyne's pregnancy than it should actually be worth.

The hangnail here is Rolph Spicer, Sybell's brother who was made Lord of Castamere. Grey Wind obviously didn't like him. I'd argue though that it's possible that he was doing something else in the Lannisters' service, or that he did something later (secure Martyn's release?) to warrant getting the lordship. For the Westerlings themselves, I only noted the marriages. Spicer got the real boon, and he's also not on the list of pardons with his sister's family.

Sorry for the long read, but I think there's a lot more going on here than meets the eye. The time line doesn't really add up to a long-term Westerling-Tywin deal, and neither does offering Joy in marriage after she was already promised to someone else. I think someone, probably Sybell, is lying or massaging the facts.

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It wouldn't be the first time Tywin's been somewhat niggardly with payment once the service is done; witness his decision not to hand Gregor Clegane over to Dorne after all.

Also, presumably Robb has some of his own guards with him there at the Crag; unless it explicitly says he didn't, I'd assume it to be the case. Which makes killing him there difficult UNLESS they were to poison him. Which would be fairly easy. Unless Sybell's a bit more magical than she appears and decided she'd never slip it past Gray Wind... that's reaching, I'll admit that now.

However, the change of betrothal does seem pretty weird, timing wise. But then Tywin was so damnably smug about it. So...

Maybe Tywin's smug because a lifetime of convincing his banner lords that extinction awaited them if they put a single foot out of line meant that he never even had to lift a finger to get them to start betraying his enemies?

So... good points. I'm caught on the fence here.

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Also, presumably Robb has some of his own guards with him there at the Crag; unless it explicitly says he didn't, I'd assume it to be the case. Which makes killing him there difficult UNLESS they were to poison him. Which would be fairly easy. Unless Sybell's a bit more magical than she appears and decided she'd never slip it past Gray Wind... that's reaching, I'll admit that now.

He was wounded when he was at the Crag, though. I think they could have done it — at least attempted to do it — and blamed it on his wounds, and gotten away with it. If he'd gone into the Crag perfectly healthy and died, that would have been suspicious. But any time someone is wounded, there's always a decent chance he succumbs to it.

Maybe Tywin's smug because a lifetime of convincing his banner lords that extinction awaited them if they put a single foot out of line meant that he never even had to lift a finger to get them to start betraying his enemies?

Sorry but I think this only reinforces the idea that if the Westerlings were really worried about Tywin, they would have preemptively "helped" Robb along to his death when he was at the Crag.

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...When Tywin and Tyrion are discussing the aftermath of the Red Wedding, Tywin mentions that Joy's supposed to marry one of Walder Frey's bastards. A bastard wed to a bastard. Fast forward to Feast, and now it seems like Joy is supposed to marry one of the Westerling boys. Sybell remembers the phrasing as being that Tywin said "they would have joy of him," and it makes sense that yes, he did mean Joy Hill...

I've always read this as Jaime improvising on the spot, he has a low opinion of the Westerlings, doesn't know about the Frey marriage and decided to palm off his bastard niece/cousin/kinswoman on them rather than one of his true born relatives.

I suspect that Tywin meant that he would deal with them fairly and they would be satisfied not that he would marry Joy Hill to one of them, "they would have joy of him" rather than "they would have Joy of him".

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I've always read this as Jaime improvising on the spot, he has a low opinion of the Westerlings, doesn't know about the Frey marriage and decided to palm off his bastard niece/cousin/kinswoman on them rather than one of his true born relatives.

I suspect that Tywin meant that he would deal with them fairly and they would be satisfied not that he would marry Joy Hill to one of them, "they would have joy of him" rather than "they would have Joy of him".

I don't know. I think it really was Joy, just because it's such an awkward, almost ... flowery ... way to speak. Joy is also pretty abstract, if you take it as "joy." I like to think Tywin would have been a bit more specific. Seems like a "snow/Snow" situation to me.

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I think you're on to something here. I have previously noted (in my thread, Will the Freys Turncoat Again) that the Lannisters may be in trouble with the Freys for their failure to deliver on promises. Tywin at one point says about the RW, and I don't have my books here, it may have been to Tyrion, that the thing was done cheaply,with Devan having to marry a Frey, Lancel having to marry a Frey and Roose getting Winterfell. Well, Lancel is gone to the holy roller knights, and now Joy is going to the Westerling boy. I see I've been ninja'd by Lummel, I was about to suggest that may have happened, though the use of Joy is pretty clear. Damn, now you ninja'd me!

I just thought the whole Westerling scenario smelled.

ETA: And so do other people, AM, I think, because the thought a fast one was being pulled with the 2 sisters is a constant theme, isn't it? Hips for children says Cat, versus narrow hips from Jaime.

ETA2: Just re-read that, so to make clear what I meant, the thought that Tywin would switch Joy from a Frey to a Westerling just seems so unlike Tywin. He knows knew what the Freys are, WTF is going on?

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I don't know. I think it really was Joy, just because it's such an awkward, almost ... flowery ... way to speak. Joy is also pretty abstract, if you take it as "joy." I like to think Tywin would have been a bit more specific. Seems like a "snow/Snow" situation to me.

You don't have the joy of my suggestion? :crying:

I think you're on to something here. I have previously noted (in my thread, Will the Freys Turncoat Again) that the Lannisters may be in trouble with the Freys for their failure to deliver on promises. Tywin at one point says about the RW, and I don't have my books here, it may have been to Tyrion, that the thing was done cheaply,with Devan having to marry a Frey, Lancel having to marry a Frey and Roose getting Winterfell...I just thought the whole Westerling scenario smelled.

ETA: And so do other people, AM, I think, because the thought a fast one was being pulled with the 2 sisters is a constant theme, isn't it? Hips for children says Cat, versus narrow hips from Jaime.

Sorry for diving in and queue jumping!

I think you are on to something with Tywin's attitude to the Freys - well that was my impression based on what he says to Tyrion when telling him that he is to marry Sansa Stark in ASOS. He's already planning, at that point to dump the Boltons and palm off the Freys...so why not the westerlings too?

A Lannister always pays their debts, "but never a groat more, my lord. You'll get the meal you bargained for, but it won't be sauced with gratitude, and in the end it will not nourish you" as Tyrion says in ADWD.

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ETA: And so do other people, AM, I think, because the thought a fast one was being pulled with the 2 sisters is a constant theme, isn't it? Hips for children says Cat, versus narrow hips from Jaime.

Yes. I think that Jeyne, Brynden, Edmure and her sister Elenya plotted to get Jeyne out before Riverrun fell, and by the time Sybell found out, Jeyne and the Blackfish were gone and there was no way she could tell Jaime that Jeyne had escaped, so she was forced to play along. Jaime sees evidence of a beating on "Jeyne's" face and asks about it — Sybell says she fought when they tried to take her crown, but she doesn't present the crown to Jaime and we never see it. I think Sybell hit Elenya after learning that she helped Jeyne escape, and those are the marks Jaime sees. But by having a daughter who obviously isn't pregnant, Sybell is also now free to lie about giving Jeyne moon tea (if that's actually what she's saying at all).

There's also the fact that the Stark banner is still flying at Riverrun and is taken down — we don't see it being taken down — in the morning. If it works as a "residency" signal, it could mean that Robb's queen has literally left the building, not that Riverrun is really "surrendering." There's also the question of which Stark the flag is flying for — Robb's dead, Sansa's been likely disinherited, and Bran, Rickon and Arya are presumed dead. Robb's will has yet to resurface. So who's the flag for? The Blackfish said he'd sworn to defend Robb's queen; I don't think he'd abandon her.

This is all in addition to the usual complaints about the hips, the shredded clothing and the covered face. The whole thing reeks.

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The interesting thing is that she was completely insulted by the offer once she understood that joy was a bastard, even though she would have been well dowered. I agree with you that the whole thing stinks. She reported Tywin saying you would have joy of me if evrything go the way we want. It makes me wonder what the relationship was between Sybell and Tywin. I also wonder how much of the betrayal Robb was aware of. Robb was certianly aware of the posistion the marriage put her family, he might have even known that Sybell was in touch with Tywin. Its hard to see Jeyne getting a better marriage from the Lannisters than she had with Robb.

Another odd thing is the lack of opposistion by his own bannermen. Umber wanted Robb to attack the Freys for abandoning Robb in the West in opposistion to the marriage. Its Cats freeing of the Kingslayer that tests the bannermens loyalty and loses the Karstarks. It loks like we have to wait for the next book.

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@ Apple Martin

I love it, I love it! I hadn't looked at it from the viewpoint that the plot was done without mom taking part. I just kept thinking what an actress she is to face Jaime like that after getting her daughter out, but now that you frame it like that, it all starts to make much more sense.

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...I think Sybell hit Elenya after learning that she helped Jeyne escape...The whole thing reeks.

or indeed to get her to play at being Jeyne.

Nice idea on the flag :thumbsup:

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I always read that passage between Sybelle and Jaime as Jaime winging it -- he clearly didn't like Sybelle and he was tired of listening to her demands so when she said "joy," he responded with "Joy." Poor girl, being see-sawed between a Frey and a Westerling, but better Rollam than a Frey. The Lanisters are a bit short on daughters, so I guess Joy had to be thrown into the mix.

I also think that Tywin felt contempt for the Freys -- they were his tools and nothing more -- but Tywin did give them a plum when he gave Riverrun to Emmon Frey even though I'm sure he was thinking of Genna and her children first and Emmon second.

I'm not at all fond of the switched Jeyne Westerling theory, I think it's very contrived. Is she supposed to have escaped with the Blackfish? A pregnant girl swimming down the river in the dark to wind up the gods know where? On the other hand I've been really wrong about theories before . . .

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or indeed to get her to play at being Jeyne.

Nice idea on the flag :thumbsup:

It's a good idea but it's not mine. Someone brought it up on the Westerling thread in the WoW section and I ran with it. ;)

I always read that passage between Sybelle and Jaime as Jaime winging it -- he clearly didn't like Sybelle and he was tired of listening to her demands so when she said "joy," he responded with "Joy." Poor girl, being see-sawed between a Frey and a Westerling, but better Rollam than a Frey. The Lanisters are a bit short on daughters, so I guess Joy had to be thrown into the mix.

Ehhhh ... still think it's a snow/Snow situation. "Joy" is an odd word for Tywin to use in general, and then it just seems too coincidental for them to have a bastard family member named Joy. I think it's more like, Sybell took "joy" as being something really good and Jaime had to piss in her chips by clarifying it.

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He was wounded when he was at the Crag, though. I think they could have done it — at least attempted to do it — and blamed it on his wounds, and gotten away with it. If he'd gone into the Crag perfectly healthy and died, that would have been suspicious. But any time someone is wounded, there's always a decent chance he succumbs to it.

Sorry but I think this only reinforces the idea that if the Westerlings were really worried about Tywin, they would have preemptively "helped" Robb along to his death when he was at the Crag.

Robb was presumably guarded at all times and probably by a guard no less fierce than Grey Wind. Also, the Crag was held at the time and the Westerlings were prisoners with limited freedom of movement. Lastly the second in command of the 5000 scary Northmen was the Greatjon. I think they could safely expect to die on the spot should something have happened to Robb.

The greatest thing in favor of your theory is the failure to account for both Westerling girls during Riverrun's surrender. I'm still not convinced how a 13 year old can pass for a 16 year old regardless of the hips.

Other than that raising a houshold knight to lordship is quite the reward and I think Tywin had joy rather than Joy in mind for Sybelle.

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...Is she supposed to have escaped with the Blackfish? A pregnant girl swimming down the river in the dark to wind up the gods know where? On the other hand I've been really wrong about theories before . . .

Yes, I have a tendency to think (look away now Blackfish fans) that this might not have worked out well for them if that is what they tried to do. Sounds like heart attack territory to me. Unless of course Jeyne had been smuggled out earlier but then that doesn't fit with Sybelle's anger.

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About Jeyne's crown -- wasn't that what Ryman Frey's playmate was wearing when Jaime arrived? He took it, did he not?

Yes, so that makes Sybelle's comments about hitting "Jeyne" over the crown very suspicious, doesn't it?

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No, that was Robb's crown which they had got at the Red Wedding. At that point in time Jeyne's crown was presumably safely on her brow. Presumably she had some kind of regal head gear too.

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About Jeyne's crown -- wasn't that what Ryman Frey's playmate was wearing when Jaime arrived? He took it, did he not?

Nope, that was ROBB'S COWN. No one had been inside Riverrun to take Jeyne's crown — when Jaime arrived, the castle had not yet surrendered and no Lannister-Frey forces had been inside. So why would Ryman Frey have Jeyne's crown? No, it was Robb's. And it's the same crown Brienne sees UnCat handling later on, after Ryman was hanged.

ETA: As for the Blackfish's escape with Jeyne. Might it be possible that he pulled a Bran-and-Rickon and never actually left? I think that's unlikely but it could explain how a pregnant girl "got away" — they didn't really get away. And who would know where to hide out better than him?

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