Stannis is the One True King

[mcb]

Father's approval is only mandatory for females. Tyrion married without his father's approval, and it was technically still a marriage.

And so was Sansa's marriage, even if Robb was the one who should have given his consent for it, and he most certainly had not. I don't think there's a difference between sons and daughters, and also it looks as if parental approval isn't mandatory. Ignoring it may lead to a world of hurt, but doesn't make a marriage automatically invalid.

[MtnLion]

It still does not mean that Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne. Maybe the Kingsguard at the Tower considered him the heir, but it seems they followed Rhaegar rather than Aerys.

Those three Kingsguard believed that Jon was the heir, that is the point. There is no stronger indication for any other person in the story.

[Knight errant]

The Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy refer to their vows as members of the Kingsguard as their reasoning for staying at the Tower of Joy. They even reference their vows when asked why they are not with Viserys, who is believed to be the Targaryren king, and still claim to be upholding their vows as members of the Kingsguard. As members of the Kingsguard their first priority is their king. These three men have been painted throughout the series as some of the most honorable members of the Kingsguard and the most faithful to their vows, regardless of the situation. Why would they abandon their king to guard a mistress when the people looking for her wish her no harm?

No, they were observing their vow to protect and defend the king, they say so. Ned says that they were a shining example for all of the world, so they weren't lying.

Actually they would have to renew their vows to the new king I believe. They were told to guard the Tower by Rhaegar so already they aren't acting by what the king has to say so do you really think that while the king was still alive they would defend a bastard at least 6 people down the line of succession? No, in short. They were told by Rhaegar to defend the tower; their last order. Their Vow demands that they die completing such an order so they stay. I bet for sure otherwise they would abandon some bastard.

He wouldn't be in line for the throne until all of Rhaegars other children are dead, even then it's iffy as he's an illegitimate bastard so the idea the Kingsguard would go there over KL or DS is quite baseless. Your claim is speculation and not FACT, never claim what isn't fact to be so please. Until we are told so by Howland Reed we cannot say if Jon was there or not.

[Knight errant]

Those three Kingsguard believed that Jon was the heir, that is the point. There is no stronger indication for any other person in the story.

...And Robert Baratheon thought Joffrey was his child. What people think is different to what is.

[Brandon Martell]

...And Robert Baratheon thought Joffrey was his child. What people think is different to what is.

Well unless someone else screwed Lyanna during the rebellion, it's imp that Jon is someone other than Rhaegar's son.

[Where Boars Glow]

Well unless someone else screwed Lyanna during the rebellion, it's imp that Jon is someone other than Rhaegar's son.

Torrmund's member has been known to impregnate woman from accross both time and space.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

It still does not mean that Jon is the legitimate heir to the throne. Maybe the Kingsguard at the Tower considered him the heir, but it seems they followed Rhaegar rather than Aerys.

It does not mean that Jon is currently the legitimate heir to the throne, but it seems to confirm that he was the Targaryren heir to the throne before Robert Baratheon was crowed king. They definitely followed Aerys and were faithful members of his Kingsguard. Rhaegar was a member of the royal family and therefore also had their protection. They may have favored Rhaegar, but they were still faithful to the protection of Aerys and the rest of the Targaryren family.

Rhaegar needed his father's approval for a marriage, and I don't think Aerys gave it. A marriage, if there was a marriage, would then be invalid. If Rhaegar had replaced his father as it seems he intended, that might not have mattered but Aerys survived his son.

Where is it stated that Rhaegar needed his father's approval to validate his marriage?

Actually they would have to renew their vows to the new king I believe.

The Kingsguard vows are for life. They defend the king following the line of succession as evidenced by the text. Any renewal of their vows is simply a formality.

They were told to guard the Tower by Rhaegar so already they aren't acting by what the king has to say so do you really think that while the king was still alive they would defend a bastard at least 6 people down the line of succession?

Of course not. If Rhaegar ordered them to guard the tower while he and Aerys were still alive they were well within their vows to stay and guard the Tower of Joy if Elia was indeed Rhaegar's wife. Making Jon a member of the immediate royal family.

No, in short. They were told by Rhaegar to defend the tower; their last order. Their Vow demands that they die completing such an order so they stay. I bet for sure otherwise they would abandon some bastard.

Their vows demand that they die defending their last order? Seriously? Where are you getting this? How else do you explain their thoughts on Darry guarding Viserys? How else do you explain their reference to their vow as members of the Kingsguard as reasoning for not being with Viserys, their current Targaryren king if Jon is illegitimate?

He wouldn't be in line for the throne until all of Rhaegars other children are dead, even then it's iffy as he's an illegitimate bastard so the idea the Kingsguard would go there over KL or DS is quite baseless. Your claim is speculation and not FACT, never claim what isn't fact to be so please. Until we are told so by Howland Reed we cannot say if Jon was there or not.

You destroyed your own logic with this statement. You effectively made an argument for why Jon is more than likely the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryren. No one is claiming anything to be fact. These are simply assumptions based on evidence from the text, and since they hold strong against criticism they are widely accepted assumptions.

...And Robert Baratheon thought Joffrey was his child. What people think is different to what is.

The situations are not comparable. That point is that there had to be a reason that the Kingsguard felt the need to protect Jon over Viserys. There's no other reason for them to feel this way other than the idea that Rhaegar married Lyanna. Even if you consider that marriage invalid, it still more than likely happened and was recognized by the members of the Kingsguard.

[Kate Poem]

If Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in some way, if Jon was their son, if the Kingsguard knights knew (or not) about little Aegon's death... and, even if Aegon is'nt fake... Jon is Azor Ahai, Prince who was promised, one only person who will win with Others I think.

Many questions without answers.

But I don't know Jon should to be a king or he should'nt be. I had'nt any objections for king Stannis. All hail His Grace!

[Knight errant]

It does not mean that Jon is currently the legitimate heir to the throne, but it seems to confirm that he was the Targaryren heir to the throne before Robert Baratheon was crowed king. They definitely followed Aerys and were faithful members of his Kingsguard. Rhaegar was a member of the royal family and therefore also had their protection. They may have favored Rhaegar, but they were still faithful to the protection of Aerys and the rest of the Targaryren family.

Where is it stated that Rhaegar needed his father's approval to validate his marriage?

The Kingsguard vows are for life. They defend the king following the line of succession as evidenced by the text. Any renewal of their vows is simply a formality.

Of course not. If Rhaegar ordered them to guard the tower while he and Aerys were still alive they were well within their vows to stay and guard the Tower of Joy if Elia was indeed Rhaegar's wife. Making Jon a member of the immediate royal family.

Their vows demand that they die defending their last order? Seriously? Where are you getting this? How else do you explain their thoughts on Darry guarding Viserys? How else do you explain their reference to their vow as members of the Kingsguard as reasoning for not being with Viserys, their current Targaryren king if Jon is illegitimate?

You destroyed your own logic with this statement. You effectively made an argument for why Jon is more than likely the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryren. No one is claiming anything to be fact. These are simply assumptions based on evidence from the text, and since they hold strong against criticism they are widely accepted assumptions.

The situations are not comparable. That point is that there had to be a reason that the Kingsguard felt the need to protect Jon over Viserys. There's no other reason for them to feel this way other than the idea that Rhaegar married Lyanna. Even if you consider that marriage invalid, it still more than likely happened and was recognized by the members of the Kingsguard.

No actually, as is also said that they only answer and protect the KING. Unless he says otherwise so defending Rhaegar and listening to him is odd because they are supposed to be answerable to the King, as is said by many characters. Rhaegar was also already married so he can't legitimately marry again. They have no need to consider whatever bastard born is infront of the living heir who is himself three places behind in the line of succession. When they were there they were protecting Rhaegar, we are then told BY THEM that if given the choice THEY WOULD LEAVE but were ORDERED by Rhaegar, clearly they think this boy is worthless as they say, they will however not stop doing what they were told to do as their last order : Defend the tower. That is why they are there it affirms nothing about the possibility of a baby inside.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

No actually, as is also said that they only answer and protect the KING.

This is not true as evidenced by the text.The duty of the Kingsguard is to protect the king and the royal family and their first duty is to the king.

Unless he says otherwise so defending Rhaegar and listening to him is odd because they are supposed to be answerable to the King, as is said by many characters.

It is not odd. As long as their king is safe it is also their duty to protect and obey the royal family. As far as they knew Aerys was safe in the Red Keep.

Rhaegar was also already married so he can't legitimately marry again.

Really? Where is this stated? We have examples of polygamy within the Targaryren dynasty, and GRRM has stated that there may have been more cases of polygamy not mentioned.

They have no need to consider whatever bastard born is infront of the living heir who is himself three places behind in the line of succession.

During the conversation between Ned and the Kingsguard, Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon are dead. If Jon is a bastard, Viserys is the current Targaryren heir and their duty is to him.

When they were there they were protecting Rhaegar,

Rhaegar had already died on the Trident.

we are then told BY THEM that if given the choice THEY WOULD LEAVE but were ORDERED by Rhaegar, clearly they think this boy is worthless as they say, they will however not stop doing what they were told to do as their last order : Defend the tower. That is why they are there it affirms nothing about the possibility of a baby inside.

This never happened.

This is the conversation:

"I looked for you on the Trident," Ned said to them.

"We were not there," Ser Gerold answered.

"Woe to the Usurper if we had been," said Ser Oswell.

"When King's Landing fell, Ser Jaime slew your king with a golden sword, and I wondered where you were."

"Far away," Ser Gerold said, "or Aerys would yet sit the Iron Throne, and our false brother would burn in seven hells."

"I came down on Storm's End to lift the siege," Ned told them, "and the Lords Tyrell and Redwyne dipped their banners, and all their knights bent the knee to pledge us fealty. I was certain you would be among them."

"Our knees do not bend easily," said Ser Arthur Dayne.

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

[MtnLion]

Actually they would have to renew their vows to the new king I believe. They were told to guard the Tower by Rhaegar so already they aren't acting by what the king has to say so do you really think that while the king was still alive they would defend a bastard at least 6 people down the line of succession? No, in short. They were told by Rhaegar to defend the tower; their last order. Their Vow demands that they die completing such an order so they stay. I bet for sure otherwise they would abandon some bastard.

He wouldn't be in line for the throne until all of Rhaegars other children are dead, even then it's iffy as he's an illegitimate bastard so the idea the Kingsguard would go there over KL or DS is quite baseless. Your claim is speculation and not FACT, never claim what isn't fact to be so please. Until we are told so by Howland Reed we cannot say if Jon was there or not.

Actually you are precisely correct, they will not die for a bastard. That is the point, Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, and Jon is legitiimate. All three of them know that, and all three of them choose to defend the legitmate heir to the throne, instead of protecting Ned's suggestion that Viserys was the heir. 'Tis plain as day that GRRM is telling us, but you can lead a horse to water, . . .

[Tini]

If Rhaegar and Lyanna were married in some way, if Jon was their son, if the Kingsguard knights knew (or not) about little Aegon's death... and, even if Aegon is'nt fake... Jon is Azor Ahai, Prince who was promised, one only person who will win with Others I think.

Many questions without answers.

But I don't know Jon should to be a king or he should'nt be. I had'nt any objections for king Stannis. All hail His Grace!

If there was a marriage, can it be proved that there was? Jon's legitimacy would be at least as suspect as Aegon's parentage is.

But the question should not be if he should or shouldn't be king. The question is, could he take the throne and defend it. I don't think so.

In order to claim the Iron Throne, he would have to quit the Night's Watch. The Watch is not likely to help him in his bid for the Iron Throne, and I don't think Jon would ask it of them. They are needed at the Wall. The only other allies he can call on are the wildlings. They would support him but their support would not help him win the support of the noble houses, their support might actually harm his cause. Jon knows a lot about the wildlings and the Northmen, but next to nothing about the South. Despising the Southern knights and lords in the Night's Watch will not help him win the South. Jon's claim to the Northern loyalties will be contested by Rickon Stark's return.

House Martell and the Dornish will oppose Jon: if he is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna Stark, they will consider his very existence a stain on their honor, an insult to Elia of Dorne's memory. They will be especially irate if Jon claims to be born in wedlock, as Rhaegar was married to Elia. I don't think the Dornish practice polygamy, but even if they did, they will never acknowledge Jon, or Jon's legitimacy. And while they are not the most powerful house in Westeros, many houses will follow their lead.Especially as Jon is lacking a power base that would make an alliance interesting for them.

Jon may be Azor Ahai, but I don't think he is meant to be king.

[MtnLion]

Jon may be Azor Ahai, but I don't think he is meant to be king.

He certainly does not desire to be king. If he turns out to be tPtwP, what is to keep everyone from insisting that he take the throne? He saves Westeros from an horrible invasion of Others. He has the support of the people. (I don't know where Dorne would consider it an afront to Elia if Rhaegar took another wife, especially when it was necessary to produce tPtwP.) Perhaps more appropriately how is Stannis going to react to discovering that Jon is the heir, not him? Will Stannis react appropriately or will he enlist Melisandre's aid in producing another shadow assassin?

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

If there was a marriage, can it be proved that there was? Jon's legitimacy would be at least as suspect as Aegon's parentage is.

But the question should not be if he should or shouldn't be king. The question is, could he take the throne and defend it. I don't think so.

Northerners marry in front of heart trees, and we can see through time through Bran visions through those trees. As long as Jon's parentage can be proven to Jon and the readers, I'm good. I doubt his parentage will matter in terms of the Iron Throne, only in terms of the prophecies.

In order to claim the Iron Throne, he would have to quit the Night's Watch. The Watch is not likely to help him in his bid for the Iron Throne, and I don't think Jon would ask it of them. They are needed at the Wall. The only other allies he can call on are the wildlings. They would support him but their support would not help him win the support of the noble houses, their support might actually harm his cause. Jon knows a lot about the wildlings and the Northmen, but next to nothing about the South. Despising the Southern knights and lords in the Night's Watch will not help him win the South. Jon's claim to the Northern loyalties will be contested by Rickon Stark's return.

House Martell and the Dornish will oppose Jon: if he is Rhaegar's son by Lyanna Stark, they will consider his very existence a stain on their honor, an insult to Elia of Dorne's memory. They will be especially irate if Jon claims to be born in wedlock, as Rhaegar was married to Elia. I don't think the Dornish practice polygamy, but even if they did, they will never acknowledge Jon, or Jon's legitimacy. And while they are not the most powerful house in Westeros, many houses will follow their lead.Especially as Jon is lacking a power base that would make an alliance interesting for them.

There's no reason to believe that Jon will fight for the Iron Throne.

Jon may be Azor Ahai, but I don't think he is meant to be king.

I agree.

Perhaps more appropriately how is Stannis going to react to discovering that Jon is the heir, not him? Will Stannis react appropriately or will he enlist Melisandre's aid in producing another shadow assassin?

If Jon is proven to be AAR/TPTWP I can see Stannis having a serious reality check. Everything he has been struggling to believe will be challenged and he will have to find his place in all the madness. I see Stannis accepting Jon as TPTWP while still fighting to gain the Iron Throne. I doubt Jon will wish to fight for the throne, his story is in the North.

[hiraeth]

No actually, as is also said that they only answer and protect the KING. Unless he says otherwise so defending Rhaegar and listening to him is odd because they are supposed to be answerable to the King, as is said by many characters. Rhaegar was also already married so he can't legitimately marry again. They have no need to consider whatever bastard born is infront of the living heir who is himself three places behind in the line of succession. When they were there they were protecting Rhaegar, we are then told BY THEM that if given the choice THEY WOULD LEAVE but were ORDERED by Rhaegar, clearly they think this boy is worthless as they say, they will however not stop doing what they were told to do as their last order : Defend the tower. That is why they are there it affirms nothing about the possibility of a baby inside.

In the light of Rhaegar's obsession with the prophesy about the PtwP I would not be surprised if he sent the Kingsguard to protect not just the future king, but the future savior of the world... Aeris being mad, and Rhaegar's best friend being one of the Kingsguard I don't see why we should suspect that R and L got married (after all, the Targs were used to having two legitimate wives) and got the little prince who would save the world...

[mcb]

In the light of Rhaegar's obsession with the prophesy about the PtwP I would not be surprised if he sent the Kingsguard to protect not just the future king, but the future savior of the world...

And the Kingsguard would follow that order even after Rhaegar's death? He'd have ordered them to disregard their sworn duty and they still would follow? Doubtful. Especially since, as an explanation, the White Bull said specifically: "we swore a vow", not "we got our orders".

[hiraeth]

And the Kingsguard would follow that order even after Rhaegar's death? He'd have ordered them to disregard their sworn duty and they still would follow? Doubtful. Especially since, as an explanation, the White Bull said specifically: "we swore a vow", not "we got our orders".

Then, in your opinion, who were they guarding in the ToJ? At that point, Rhaegar, Aeris and Aegon were all dead (or presumed dead) - and the obvious heir to the throne was Vyseris? Why were they not with him? And the rest of the quote was:

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

I sense some pity in Ser Gerold's words - Ser Willem is a good man and true, but not of the Kingsguard - as if he pities him for not knowing or not doing the right thing... BTW, what exactly were the words of the Kingsguard vows? Maybe that could help us...

[mcb]

Then, in your opinion, who were they guarding in the ToJ?

Trueborn son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, and, after Aerys', Rhaegar's, Aegon's and Rhaenys' demise, the rightful Targ king. Sorry, wasn't my point clear?

[hiraeth]

Trueborn son of Lyanna and Rhaegar, and, after Aerys', Rhaegar's, Aegon's and Rhaenys' demise, the rightful Targ king. Sorry, wasn't my point clear?

That was my point too - sorry, wasn't my point clear in my first post? There must have been some mistake then...

[Brandon Martell]

And so was Sansa's marriage, even if Robb was the one who should have given his consent for it, and he most certainly had not. I don't think there's a difference between sons and daughters, and also it looks as if parental approval isn't mandatory. Ignoring it may lead to a world of hurt, but doesn't make a marriage automatically invalid.

Parental approval is mandatory for daughters. Sansa had parental approval, but since her brother (the one responsible for her) was a traitor, the king would give that approval instead. It's exactly how laws of marriage worked many times in history. The woman always belongs to some man. A case like Sansa's has happened before in history, but usually the case is that the father is dead and she has no brothers or uncles, not traitor brothers and uncles.