Stannis is the One True King

[MtnLion]

In the light of Rhaegar's obsession with the prophesy about the PtwP I would not be surprised if he sent the Kingsguard to protect not just the future king, but the future savior of the world... Aeris being mad, and Rhaegar's best friend being one of the Kingsguard I don't see why we should suspect that R and L got married (after all, the Targs were used to having two legitimate wives) and got the little prince who would save the world...

Then why would he think that Lyanna's child was the future savior, when he has already pronounced Aegon to be AA?

[MtnLion]

"Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him."

"Ser Willem is a good man and true," said Ser Oswell.

"But not of the Kingsguard," Ser Gerold pointed out. "The Kingsguard does not flee."

"Then or now," said Ser Arthur. He donned his helm.

"We swore a vow," explained old Ser Gerold.

I sense some pity in Ser Gerold's words - Ser Willem is a good man and true, but not of the Kingsguard - as if he pities him for not knowing or not doing the right thing... BTW, what exactly were the words of the Kingsguard vows? Maybe that could help us...

I agree with the perceived sadness of Ser Gerold's (The White Bull, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard) comment. The wording that Jaime gives is to "protect and defend the king".

[MtnLion]

Parental approval is mandatory for daughters. Sansa had parental approval, but since her brother (the one responsible for her) was a traitor, the king would give that approval instead. It's exactly how laws of marriage worked many times in history. The woman always belongs to some man. A case like Sansa's has happened before in history, but usually the case is that the father is dead and she has no brothers or uncles, not traitor brothers and uncles.

For a girl that has not reached majority I can see parental approval being required. However, absolutely no sane person is going to oppose Rhaegar whilst Aerys views him benevolently. Look at what happened to Brandon and Rickard.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

BTW, what exactly were the words of the Kingsguard vows? Maybe that could help us...

We don't have the exact vows, but we do have:

"Such a white name...like the pretty cloaks they give us in the Kingsguard when we swear our pretty oaths." -So they obviously swear something to someone.

"So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his." -He is obviously referring to his vows as a member of the Kingsguard.

"After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside, and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him." - Hightower telling Jaime to remember his oaths after Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon

And finally let's not forget Jamie's dream:

"We all swore oaths," said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. "He was going to burn the city," Jamie said. "To leave Robert only ashes."

"He was your king," said Darry.

"You swore to keep him safe," said Whent.

"And the children, them as well," said Prince Lewyn....

Prince Rhaegar..."I left my wife and children in your hands."

"I never thought he would hurt them...I was with the king..."

"Killing the king," said Ser Arthur.

"Cutting his throat," said Prince Lewyn.

"The king you had sworn to die for," said the White Bull.

I doubt GRRM included this detailed dream just to show Jaime's guilt. The same way I doubt he included Ned's dream just to show Ned's guilt. Both dreams show how devoted these men where to their vows, and I feel there is a reason we are shown this devotion.

[hiraeth]

I agree with the perceived sadness of Ser Gerold's (The White Bull, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard) comment. The wording that Jaime gives is to "protect and defend the king".

Thanks for Jamie's quote - now I'm even more convinced that Jon is the legitimate son of R and L...

[hiraeth]

We don't have the exact vows, but we do have:

"Such a white name...like the pretty cloaks they give us in the Kingsguard when we swear our pretty oaths." -So they obviously swear something to someone.

"So many vows...they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his." -He is obviously referring to his vows as a member of the Kingsguard.

"After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside, and said to me, 'You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him." - Hightower telling Jaime to remember his oaths after Aerys killed Rickard and Brandon

And finally let's not forget Jamie's dream:

"We all swore oaths," said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. "He was going to burn the city," Jamie said. "To leave Robert only ashes."

"He was your king," said Darry.

"You swore to keep him safe," said Whent.

"And the children, them as well," said Prince Lewyn....

Prince Rhaegar..."I left my wife and children in your hands."

"I never thought he would hurt them...I was with the king..."

"Killing the king," said Ser Arthur.

"Cutting his throat," said Prince Lewyn.

"The king you had sworn to die for," said the White Bull.

I doubt GRRM included this detailed dream just to show Jaime's guilt. The same way I doubt he included Ned's dream just to show Ned's guilt. Both dreams show how devoted these men where to their vows, and I feel there is a reason we are shown this devotion.

Thanks very much, I agree that there is some deeper meaning to all this, yet to be revealed...

[hiraeth]

Then why would he think that Lyanna's child was the future savior, when he has already pronounced Aegon to be AA?

I don't know - maybe he started doubting that Aegon would be the AA by the time he met L (after all the Song of Ice and Fire, IMHO, connects the Targs and the Starks, not Martells and Dorne, if that could be interpreted as the hint)... He definitely knew that there had to be more than two children and sent his best Kingsguard members to guard the ToJ while L was there... Judging from Maester Aemon's words that they may have been wrong in the past and that Daeny could be AA, it seems that the Targs in general were in the dark as to the AA's true identity...

[Knight errant]

I concede, you have quotes hahaha ! Sorry for my rashness. That would make your points correct - possibly. It doesn't mean there is a bastard named Jon there...

[MtnLion]

I don't know - maybe he started doubting that Aegon would be the AA by the time he met L (after all the Song of Ice and Fire, IMHO, connects the Targs and the Starks, not Martells and Dorne, if that could be interpreted as the hint)... He definitely knew that there had to be more than two children and sent his best Kingsguard members to guard the ToJ while L was there... Judging from Maester Aemon's words that they may have been wrong in the past and that Daeny could be AA, it seems that the Targs in general were in the dark as to the AA's true identity...

Maester Aemon's discourse is desperately searching for the PtwP from the line of Aerys and Rhaella (woods witch). He is completely ignorant of any hints that Jon is a Targaryen.

[hiraeth]

Maester Aemon's discourse is desperately searching for the PtwP from the line of Aerys and Rhaella (woods witch). He is completely ignorant of any hints that Jon is a Targaryen.

Yes, I agree, my point is that noone really knew and that even R may have had doubts about Aegon... They had been wrong so many times in the past...

[Knight errant]

Maester Aemon's discourse is desperately searching for the PtwP from the line of Aerys and Rhaella (woods witch). He is completely ignorant of any hints that Jon is a Targaryen.

No one is, that's why I maintain he can't ascend the throne. Who is there to recognize him?

[MtnLion]

No one is, that's why I maintain he can't ascend the throne. Who is there to recognize him?

Perhaps a more appropriate question is who would need to recognize him for him to ascend the throne? Who needs to recognize anyone to ascend the throne? Think about it, no one has a better claim, but they are all just claims. ;)

[hiraeth]

No one is, that's why I maintain he can't ascend the throne. Who is there to recognize him?

IMHO, Martin is way beyond that, Jon is not Aragorn and the story will take another turn, but there are so many hints and foreshadowing about Jon's parentage that something important in that respect is going to be crucial for the story line...

[Guardian of the Lhazareen]

Stannis is a king without a throne. nuf said

[Tini]

Perhaps a more appropriate question is who would need to recognize him for him to ascend the throne? Who needs to recognize anyone to ascend the throne? Think about it, no one has a better claim, but they are all just claims. ;)

The appropriate question is who would back Jon's bid for the throne. Jon is not strong enough to seriously claim the throne. I don't see anyone but the wildlings backing Jon, and I don't think that that would be enough. And the wildlings would back him regardless of who his parents are. The Targaryen loyalists would rather back Dany and/or Aegon than Jon. Jon can neither prove to them that he is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, nor can he claim any legitimacy as far as they are concerned.

[stu1987]

Yeah, Jon doesn't have much going for him in terms of winning the Iron Throne. I think it is more important to have him at (and north of) the Wall. I think he realises this too. Can you imagine he became king and his first order was: round everyone up, we're off to fight the Others?

- this is all assuming he is still alive, of course.

Surely the Tyrells are best placed to make a major powerplay. It seems like Varys is in favour of this too after what happened with Kevan.

[MtnLion]

To successfully defeat the Others it may require uniting the realm behind a single leader who knows the threat and how to deal with it. Kinda puts Jon in the driver's seat if you think about it. I don't think Jon needs to prove anything, I just think that the correct person will be forced to take the position of leader in Westeros, and that would be Jon. The Iron Throne is just a prop, not at all necessary when the Others invade and the war for the Dawn starts. (This brings to mind the alternate vision for Daenerys in the screenplay, where the throne room is in snow, the Iron Throne has snow on it, and Daenerys does not disturb the snow on the throne. eh?)

[SaltSmokeAndSnow]

I feel its more straightforward to say the reality is, no one has a "right" to the Iron Throne. It's "up for grabs." Stannis and Daenerys certainly are the front-runners for the crown, but since Daenerys has the supernatural quality, she seems more destin for the Throne. I love Stannis, but Dany is what Westeros needs IMO.

Because R+L=J, Dany and Jon would be the key to 'true' peace. The unspoken bond between them would bring peace between KL and the North. Jon and Tyrion's mutual respect (and Tyrion's lack of interest in the Throne) would bring peace between Casterly Rock and the North and KL. Dorne's Targ loyalty would maintain peace between KL and the South; and slowly the whole puzzle comes together.

Stannis is just, but he does not inspire love. He will demand fealty where fealty does not exist.

The only beef I have with Stannis is Mel and her buring of other gods. The North will never give up their gods. Dany can capitalize on pre-existing loyalties, where Stannis will expect everyone to bend to his will... or be destroyed.

God I love Stannis. Lol damn you GRRM. :bang:

[stu1987]

Yeah I totally agree that no-one has a 'right' to the throne. It irks me when characters(especially Dany) think they do.l it

I like Stannis as a Warden, but definitely not as a king. Does it really matter? I think there's about to be a major shake up in the next two novels anyway, the feuds over who should be king are surely about to become less important when the Others throw down.

I don't think Mel would be too fussed about other religions, there are already several religions in the country - it wouldn't be prudent to go around burning the smallfolks' gods.

[SaltSmokeAndSnow]

I like Stannis as a Warden, but definitely not as a king. Does it really matter? I think there's about to be a major shake up in the next two novels anyway, the feuds over who should be king are surely about to become less important when the Others throw down.

I don't think Mel would be too fussed about other religions, there are already several religions in the country - it wouldn't be prudent to go around burning the smallfolks' gods.

*continent not country :cool4:

She made/convinced/manipulated Stannis' people to forsake the Faith of the Seven on Dragonstone. If Stannis were king I imagine he'd expect the same of all of Westeros unless terms were made where the North ruled itself. But then Stannis would not consider himself truly King of all Westeros which is what he's all about. Fealty to Stannis will mean fealty to R'hllor. Stannis will not settle to be Warden, thats a pipe dream.

I still love Stannis and I hope he lives long past seeing peace in the realm once again. But with him on the Iron Throne I just don't see an end to the wars.