House Army numbers?

[Bronze_Yohn_Royce]

Honestly I don't understand why people are giving the Starks/North so many troops, seems a bit ridiculous.

Lets look a the facts - the Northmen brought 18,000 south of the neck. Most of these were killed at the Green Fork/Duskendale/Red Wedding - some thousands returned in the form of the Boltons and their bannermen, as well as hundreds of Freys. The Manderlys have a couple thousand in reserve, as well as the 600 that Rodrik musters and the 200 that Ramsay uses to kill them. Alongside 3,000 clansmen from the hills and the dregs of houses Karstark and Umber, we're looking at most likely 25,000 troops total at the beginning of the conflict. Much less now, perhaps lower than 10,000.

In terms of the Riverlands, I think Renly's talk with Catelyn at Bitterbridge is important to take into account. he assumed that the Riverlands had around 20,000 (40,000 in combination with Starks) and Catelyn knew at that point that they didn't even have that (after several battles and such). So perhaps the Riverlands started out with an army of 25-30,000, but even that is pushing it and allowing for huge amounts of casualties.

I think in terms of the Tyrell's it is important to note that the oft-quoted "100,000 troops" figure also included at least 20,000 Stormlanders who were also following Renly. These are the ones who joined Stannis after he shadow-killed Renly. Tyrell's could probably, scraping the bottom of the barrel, come up with close to this figure, but the vast majority would be untrained spearmen and archers.

Dorne I think is underrated. they put something like 40,000 troops in the Boneway and the Prince's Pass as part of Tyrion's arrangement, and that doesn't seem to have been that many. perhaps they have close to 50,000?

[thelivingocean]

Dorne I think is underrated. they put something like 40,000 troops in the Boneway and the Prince's Pass as part of Tyrion's arrangement, and that doesn't seem to have been that many. perhaps they have close to 50,000?

Where was this in the books? 40,000 seems like an awful lot for the Boneway and PP. I think Dorne exaggerate their own numbers as well.

[imperfek]

i thought the Lannister army were made up largely of mercenaries during the war of the 5kings

but i guess they would have more men considering how they stayed out of most of the rebellion against the iron throne.

So I don't mind giving my opinion on this again - in the hope that it revives the debate and evolves into another 20 page thread on the topic.

To answer you - these are full potential strength, and not current strength:

Stark - 50,000

Lannister - 50,000

Baratheon - 35,000

Tyrell - 90,000

Tully - 40,000

Arryn - 40,000

Martell - 30,000

Greyjoy - 25,000

As for the North that seems a bit much for a region with a low population density and considering they struggle to even get 20,000 for GoT

i really hope the show tells us more bout the Dorne, the area is still filled with a lot of mystery and myth.

[King Aemon I]

Back on this again. I love these topics and this is a post I wrote months ago.. With some modifications..

I.. don't know much about the equipments and items of the armies but I'm interested in the numbers... So here is info-guess mix about numbers..

Robb came Moat with 18.000 men... south of the Neck, he had 20.000 (with greywater men) -- North 20k (not all, but most)

When Robb came to Riverrun he had 4.000 riders, and it is said Lannisters have 3 men four each of us.. (most of them were foot though, Tywin took cavalries to encounter the major Stark host.. 12.000 Lannister foot, 20.000 men with Tywin, and the lowest of the Lannister force, the one the raised after Jaime's defeat, Stafford's approx. 10.000, mostly peasants.. Lannisters --42k but they are rich and unlike Robb they hired a lot of mercenaries and a Company so the land force is, with every single soldier from knight to sicklemen 35k..

Renly asks Catelyn how many men does his son have and he guesses; “I’m told your son crossed the Neck with twenty thousand swords at his back,” Renly went on. “Now that the lords of the Trident are with him, perhaps he commands forty thousand.”

No, she (Catelyn) thought, not near so many, we have lost men in battle, and others to the harvest.“I have twice that number here,” Renly said," 80.000 men.. And Lord Mace has 10.000 with him in Highgarden. So 90.000.. But Redwyne twins were in KL so Lord Redwyne didn't declare for Renly, so with Arbor force, 100.000 maybe more..Most logical seperation is that Tyrells had 70.000 for Renly, and Stormlords 20.000 but not all Stormlords declared for Renly, because of Stannis, so it is impossible for us to know how many men refused to join Renly.. Reach--80k(with Arbor) and Stormlands-- 30-35k

And Renly knows Robb past the Neck with 20.000 men, he says, "now with Trident lords joint him, he maybe has forty thousand." He doesn't care and calculate the losses because with that large army, no army is a real threat for him.. So Riverlands --20k. Though there is a possibility that Renly calculates Tully loss since that happened at the beginning of the war, Edmure lost many man even before Ned got arrested.. So unharmed Rivermen strength might be more like 25-30k

When Reznak says Quentyn in Meereen, "Dorne is sand, snakes and scorpions" and Quentyn says "Dorne is fifty thousand swords and spears.." Tyrion uses the same numbers while he was trying to convince Cersei that an alliance with Dorne should be made.. But Doran says to her nieces and daughter that this is the rumor but they can olny raise half of it. Now, he might be lying to avoid war because even with 50k, it is a hard war, so he might be just saying that to cool them down.. Dorne ---50k or 25-30k..

I don't know about Arryn, but it is no less than 20.000 men, but unlikely higher than 30.000... That is the summary, But in details, people go a little crazy, like giving Arbor credit for 20.000 men on its own.. Over 10.000 for Manderly banner.. But there is a reason for this loops.. Martin cared for events and character psychology more than he cared for numbers... That is a result of that..

[Frey Pie]

Honestly I don't understand why people are giving the Starks/North so many troops, seems a bit ridiculous.

Lets look a the facts - the Northmen brought 18,000 south of the neck. Most of these were killed at the Green Fork/Duskendale/Red Wedding - some thousands returned in the form of the Boltons and their bannermen, as well as hundreds of Freys. The Manderlys have a couple thousand in reserve, as well as the 600 that Rodrik musters and the 200 that Ramsay uses to kill them. Alongside 3,000 clansmen from the hills and the dregs of houses Karstark and Umber, we're looking at most likely 25,000 troops total at the beginning of the conflict. Much less now, perhaps lower than 10,000.

In terms of the Riverlands, I think Renly's talk with Catelyn at Bitterbridge is important to take into account. he assumed that the Riverlands had around 20,000 (40,000 in combination with Starks) and Catelyn knew at that point that they didn't even have that (after several battles and such). So perhaps the Riverlands started out with an army of 25-30,000, but even that is pushing it and allowing for huge amounts of casualties..

Dorne I think is underrated. they put something like 40,000 troops in the Boneway and the Prince's Pass as part of Tyrion's arrangement, and that doesn't seem to have been that many. perhaps they have close to 50,000?

18000 Northmen originally. 4000 came back North and theres around 12000 men in WF at the moment, including that 4000. So thats 26000 already. Now Rodrik had around 2000, and Ramsay 600 at the Sack of WF. That 600 is already accounted for, so thats 28000. Now there are three houses that have yet to play their cards-three strong ones in the North. Manderly is gathering an army to him and has a fleet of 46 i believe. He owns a large amount of heavy horse and one of five cities of Westeros. Lady Dustin sent SFA south with Robb but holds sway over huge lands, more populous then the Northern lords. Now Skaagos is also a wildcard. Its a huge island, with three houses sworn to WF and one young lord of Stark there to follow. No house is completely out of reserves of men either. 40000 men is the least i could give them, and 45-50000 seems likely.

The Riverlands is probably the second most populous region in Westeros. Its large and fertile. Its also prosperous and rich. Possibly depopulated due to being the playground of Robs Rebellion. Still though 50000 seems reasonable. Where do you get the Dornish numbers?Never remember any such deal or numbers. Quentyns trying to sway Dany. Dorne is around 30000 at most IMO

Id say:

Tyrells:80-100000

Lannister:50-60000

Stark:50000

Riverlands:50000

Vale:40-50000

Stormlands:35000

Dorne:25-30000

Iron Islands:20-28000

Troop discipline, experience, loyalty etc differs from region to region

[King Aemon I]

Id say:

Tyrells:80-100000

Lannister:50-60000

Stark:50000

Riverlands:50000

Vale:40-50000

Stormlands:35000

Dorne:25-30000

Iron Islands:20-28000

Tyrell, Dorne, Stormlands looks good.. But the rest is too much..

[Damar]

Never understood where people got 50,000 when Robb could raise less than 20,000, and we don't see 30,000 in the North sitting around doing nothing, instead we got it down a few thousand on each side of the current Stannis vs Bolton fighting. A total strength of 25-30,000 is far more reasonable

[Frey Pie]

Tyrell, Dorne, Stormlands looks good.. But the rest is too much..

Well according to Ran, the most the West could conceivably raise is around 60000. Now he said 45000 for the North but id i dispute that number, yet it still gives us something to work with, along with our own inferences. The Riverlands is an very big area, well watered and fertile, not to mention rich, with ports on both sides of Westeros-a unique possession i believe. I cant see why they have less then the West but it seems Lannister wealth accounts for the increase. The Vale is also said to be very fertile, and has a good martial reputation, containing one of the five cities in Westeros. Perhaps 35000 as the bottom margin would be more acceptable?

[Keirut]

Stark: 60.000

Lannister: 50.000 (Sellswords exluded)

Baratheon:35.000

Tyrell:90.000

Tully:65.000

Arryn:50.000

Martell:30.000

Greyjoy:15.000

[Frey Pie]

Never understood where people got 50,000 when Robb could raise less than 20,000, and we don't see 30,000 in the North sitting around doing nothing, instead we got it down a few thousand on each side of the current Stannis vs Bolton fighting. A total strength of 25-30,000 is far more reasonable

Read my breakdown above. Ill be happy to discuss that figure. 25-30000 is far too low however

[Keirut]

Never understood where people got 50,000 when Robb could raise less than 20,000, and we don't see 30,000 in the North sitting around doing nothing, instead we got it down a few thousand on each side of the current Stannis vs Bolton fighting. A total strength of 25-30,000 is far more reasonable

Robb raised 20.000 just because he needed to hurry. Lannisters were treathening his father's and his sisters's lives. The North is Huge, it's really hard to ammass all the soldiers, so he went south just with the ones who arrived first

[E-Ro]

This has beeen discussed to death, but anyway. The reason robb only took 20,000 men south(a massive army from the same time in real life, but apparently not in westeros) is because he was rushing south in a hurry, had lord manderly keep men back, and did not have the full support of all his bannermen(lady dustin, a powerful lord held many men back)

The norths issue is not manpower, its money. They can not afford to have as many men at arms as the southern kingdoms. All this being said I put them at 40-50k pre got.

[Juan_Snow]

I think people are underestimating the potential Baratheon force. Remember they control the Stormlands and the Crownlands as the OP pointed out. I've seen it estimated that Kings Landing has around 500,000 people. With those numbers plus the surrounding area I don't think it unreasonable to suggest the Crownlands by themselves are worth 35,000 men. Add that to the Stormlands and I think you've got 60-70K men.

I also don't think the North is in as bad of shape as some people think. I got the impression from DwD that Manderly still has a pretty sizeable force. White Harbor is the largest city in the North and one of the 5 largest in all of Westeros. Given enough time I'd bet Manderly could raise another 10,000 by himself. The 18,000 Robb went South with was gathered very quickly and the North is huge. Given time I really think the North could get to the 40-50K people suggest.

The Vale is a tough one, as we really aren't given any troop counts, the same goes for the Iron Islands. Dorne if you believe Doran Martell has the smallest population to draw from in Westeros. It does seem however that the people of Dorne have a strong sense of nationalism. So they may have a larger percentage of people that are willing to fight.

I would probably put the numbers at something like this:

The Reach-70,000

Stormlands/Crownlands-65,000

Riverlands-50,000

North-45,000

The West-40,000

The Vale-35,000

Dorne-30,000

Iron Islands-25,000

[Frey Pie]

I think people are underestimating the potential Baratheon force. Remember they control the Stormlands and the Crownlands as the OP pointed out. I've seen it estimated that Kings Landing has around 500,000 people. With those numbers plus the surrounding area I don't think it unreasonable to suggest the Crownlands by themselves are worth 35,000 men. Add that to the Stormlands and I think you've got 60-70K men.

I also don't think the North is in as bad of shape as some people think. I got the impression from DwD that Manderly still has a pretty sizeable force. White Harbor is the largest city in the North and one of the 5 largest in all of Westeros. Given enough time I'd bet Manderly could raise another 10,000 by himself. The 18,000 Robb went South with was gathered very quickly and the North is huge. Given time I really think the North could get to the 40-50K people suggest.

The Vale is a tough one, as we really aren't given any troop counts, the same goes for the Iron Islands. Dorne if you believe Doran Martell has the smallest population to draw from in Westeros. It does seem however that the people of Dorne have a strong sense of nationalism. So they may have a larger percentage of people that are willing to fight.

I would probably put the numbers at something like this:

The Reach-70,000

Stormlands/Crownlands-65,000

Riverlands-50,000

North-45,000

The West-40,000

The Vale-35,000

Dorne-30,000

Iron Islands-25,000

Ya it depends if your adding the Crownlands and DS by default into the Stormlands number. However, Tyrion raised i believe 6800 men to defend KL. Stannis raised 5000, which seems to be his whole strength. Id say the Crownlands and DS together may be able to raise around 20000 men, perhaps more depending on the KL population. But is there arms and armour for these men?

[Sanmartinphase7]

Elio made a very good video about this last week:

[The Frost Wolf]

Elio made a very good video about this last week:

Exactly, the video explained all of this. Its quite long though and for those of you who don't want to watch all of it here are the basics:

Tyrells are the strongest with 100,000 troops and strong navy

Lannisters with around 60,000

Riverlands to be about 40,000 - 50,000 due to their rich and fertile lands

Starks around 35,000

Vale 30,000 - 35,000

Stormlands 25,000 - 30,000

Dorne 20,000 - 25,000

Iron Islands 10,000 - 20,000

[Ser Areo Mace]

North- 45,000-50,000

Westerlands- 50,000 max

Stormlands- 35,000

Crownlands- 25,000 max

Reach- 70,000-75,000

RIverlands- 40,000 to 45,000 max

Vale- 35,000 to 45,000

Dorne- 25,000 max

Iron Islands- 20,000 max

[Mist Isle]

Exactly, the video explained all of this. Its quite long though and for those of you who don't want to watch all of it here are the basics:

Tyrells are the strongest with 100,000 troops and strong navy

Lannisters with around 60,000

Riverlands to be about 40,000 - 50,000 due to their rich and fertile lands

Starks around 35,000

Vale 30,000 - 35,000

Stormlands 25,000 - 30,000

Dorne 20,000 - 25,000

Iron Islands 10,000 - 20,000

The estimates of Elio in this video seem quite good in my opinion. Both Dorne and the Iron Islands very likely cannot field as large armies as the other regions due primarily to population levels. The two are different from one another though, as Dorne likely has substantially more population than the Iron Islands. Although Dorne and the Iron Islands probably have smaller armies they do have useful advantages over their opponents.

[The Frosted King]

Exactly, the video explained all of this. Its quite long though and for those of you who don't want to watch all of it here are the basics:

Tyrells are the strongest with 100,000 troops and strong navy

Lannisters with around 60,000

Riverlands to be about 40,000 - 50,000 due to their rich and fertile lands

Starks around 35,000

Vale 30,000 - 35,000

Stormlands 25,000 - 30,000

Dorne 20,000 - 25,000

Iron Islands 10,000 - 20,000

I'd agree with each tally but for the Lannisters.

They raised around 35k easily, but by the middle of ACOK, were scraping the barrel to get Stafford a host of 10k. Another 15k seems farfetched.

They're not the biggest, nor most populous of kingdoms.

Unless they're including sellswords in that number?

[The Frost Wolf]

The estimates of Elio in this video seem quite good in my opinion. Both Dorne and the Iron Islands very likely cannot field as large armies as the other regions due primarily to population levels. The two are different from one another though, as Dorne likely has substantially more population than the Iron Islands. Although Dorne and the Iron Islands probably have smaller armies they do have useful advantages over their opponents.

Those advantages include the 100 longships of the Iron Fleet. Which is made up of strong ships with capable soliders. But if the Iron Islands was to field every single ship (including fishing vessels, etc) it would probably have around 900, maybe more.

Dorne's population can be rallied quite quickly as we've seen throughout the books. Almost all of the Dornish population are trained with Spears and Dorne does have quite a knack for violence. As well as this they have the Prince's Pass, making Dorne almost impregnable by land when there are 25,000 spears jabbing at your army when you're moving down a narrow, mountainous region.

I'd agree with each tally but for the Lannisters.

They raised around 35k easily, but by the middle of ACOK, were scraping the barrel to get Stafford a host of 10k. Another 15k seems farfetched.

They're not the biggest, nor most populous of kingdoms.

Unless they're including sellswords in that number?

Elio put that down to the fact that the West didn't get involved in Robert's Rebellion except for the Sack. Thus making the Lannister's losses far less substantial than the Starks, Vale or anyone else. But that doesn't mean all their soliders are greybeards or anything like that, he also said that the West is economically strong (gold mines being abundant) so it would generally attract a lot of people. And in aCoK Stafford was struggling to find that many soliders because almost the entirety of the Lannister's forces were in the Riverlands/Harrenhal/Crownlands. Jamie took almost 30,000 to Riverrun and those men were smashed by Robb in the Whispering Wood and the Camps. Tywin had around 25k at the Green Fork meanwhile.

Plus, raising a new host would consist of conscripting everyone they could find. Rodrik Cassel rallied almost 2,000 troops to oust Theon from Winterfell. And even when they were slaughtered, Stannis managed to find over 4,000 new recruits in the mountains alone, not even counting the amount of random Northerners who rallied to him when he gave Deepwood back to the Glovers.