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teemo

[Book Spoilers] Nitpick without repercussion!

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To be fair, in the show pretty much all of Renly's host joins Stannis, not just the 20,000 cavalry of the novel. So with 60-80,000 troops gone... I guess, yes, the Tyrells might well have fewer loyal men than the Starks or Lannisters at this moment. Of course, the fact that the Tyrell bannermen jump, almost to a man, to Stannis has implications that I'm fairly sure the show will not explore.

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I have to complain about Tywin. Last season when we were introduced to Tywin, cutting up the deer carcass and dressing down Jaime, I was thrilled with the character. The role was perfect.

I still like the acting but:

1. He is sharp enough to relize that Arya was a girl and not a boy, yet he can't seem to put together that there is a northern girl in the riverlands who can read. She screams highborn.

2. The mere fact that he has conversations about his family and the family of a serving girl that is no older than ten.

3. He has war councils with lowborn northerners present.

4. Leaves written documents relative to the war around on tables where others can read. (especially a northern girl who can read)

5. He smiles.

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I have to complain about Tywin. Last season when we were introduced to Tywin, cutting up the deer carcass and dressing down Jaime, I was thrilled with the character. The role was perfect.

I still like the acting but:

1. He is sharp enough to relize that Arya was a girl and not a boy, yet he can't seem to put together that there is a northern girl in the riverlands who can read. She screams highborn.

2. The mere fact that he has conversations about his family and the family of a serving girl that is no older than ten.

3. He has war councils with lowborn northerners present.

4. Leaves written documents relative to the war around on tables where others can read. (especially a northern girl who can read)

5. He smiles.

I think the role is still perfect, and Charles Dance is beyond brilliant. I love they are giving him more screen time.

Something a lot of people may not realize about The Great Chain of Being that is true in English history, and seems to be what GRRM based his fictional Weterosi society on - it's basically the societal Food Chain.

The Basics:

GOD - is the top of the food chain

Sovereign

Nobles

Peasants

Animals

Plants

Within these classes, there are even more detailed breakdowns but basically you must remember that Males are always above Females, not only in the line of succession. This also applies very much to the Seven Kingdoms.

So -

1. Tywin hasn't appeared in King's Landing as of this episode, and doesn't until the very end of the Battle of the Blackwater. There is no reason for him to think Arya is missing yet. And those few who care and can't find her right how, are assuming she's dead, and would rather eat glass than tell Tywin of their own incompetence at misplacing her. She never screamed highborn even when she was at home with her family. She was always the one who wanted to get dirty and compete with the boys. Just because she can read doesn't mean her family had money. Anyone who has a business, from a silk merchant to a pub owner, needs to be able to read and do cyphers (math), otherwise their business will fail. The North is a big place. It's much more than just Winterfell. There is no reason for Tywin to not take her at face value, and while rare a common girl would be able to read, not completely out of the realm of belief - especially after his tale of his personally teaching Jamie to read (instead of servants or a tutor.)

2. The Great Chain of Being places a female common child cup-bearer below Tywin's hound and horse. (As Shea rightly said to Sansa, "Your horse eats better than his children.") Tywin speaks to her because he's largely surrounded by idiots, and Arya is one of the smartest people in the room other than himself. Speaking to her is amusing, keeps him sane, and supplies him with intelligent company, but he gives her less value than the cup she fills. It doesn't even occur to him she could be a danger in any way, she's a female child. She's less than the furniture. That's just how the world works for the likes of 99.9% of the Lannisters.

3. See #2.

4. See #2.

5. Makes him more than a two-dimensional, one-note character, and far more dangerous.

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5 men scouting in a snowclad wasteland wearing black. The young emo type shouting at his wolf from time to time, in case any watchers within several miles are taking a nap. The 5 men still manage to surprise scouts hidden in the high hills above.

Tywin Freaking Lannister allowing some northern girl to hang around his private councils, even after he learns she is literate, but can't pour wine properly! Still acts all Daddy Warbucks towards her, even smiles around her.

Conversely, King Robb still has time for idle private conversation to a pretty girl in his camp, even after he learns that she is literate. 'Sensible' Catelyn doesn't seem to be bothered by the literate girl either, just reminds King Robb he must marry a Frey. Frey, who were they now? Has any Freys been mentioned until now in season 2?

Tywin Lannister and Robb Stark both allowing unidentified literate girls move around their camps?

Speaking of literacy, why does that matter concerning Ser Amory Lorch and the message? Was he going to deliver it himself? Or tell the wrong address to a raven? I get that it is a setup for Arya's literacy and Jaime's dyslexia, but it makes no sense.

Jaime's dyslexia. Just a made up thing, just like the story of Robert and Cersei's firstborn dead son, that somehow nobody had heard of and Cersei could tell Catelyn in confidence. Seemingly a setup to make Tywin play more Daddy Warbucks to Arya.

Arya urgently needing to have Ser Amory dead. To me it seems like a easy solution to Arya's second name, just to get it out of the way without too much work. Too easy, too stupid.

Bran and Rickon escaping with Osha. Did Osha really need to sleep with Theon for that to happen, or wouldn't she had been able to kill a guard if she hadn't?

Is Dany going to scream "I will take what is mine with fire and blood" in every episode? That is getting old real fast.

The scenes with the Spicer King seems like an annoying waste of time, but at least to this viewer his English is more easily understandable than most of the accents and dialects the rest of the cast uses. As a non-native english speaker I often have trouble understanding what is said in the first go.

Lastly, as a general complaint about the series, I miss some colours and some heraldry. From the books I got the impression that most lords and knights are snappy dressers, with clear heraldry marking their dress, and colours also reflecting their arms. However, in the series I find that most clothes look alike, and the dress of the nobles are too primitive. Realistic, perhaps, and doubtless more practical, but that's not what the nobility are about. I would much prefer more clearly marked shields and other coats-of-arms to reflect all the heraldry that the books are filled with.

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I believe that in this episode there are some scenes/lines that I've been expecting for a long time and others that IMO mess up with some characters.

- First, I liked the Sansa's rescue scene with The Hound killing the rapists and his line "I didn't do that for you" (or something similar) to Tyrion. Finally, we can see something about the SanSan. :D

- Another scene I didn't dislike was Daenerys' dragons being stolen by Pyat Pree (I'm quite confident he's the one who took them and that is taking them to the House of the Undying). It's a nice way to deviate from the original plot by not modifying it too much and adding something new to the show without ruining it. So far, IMO, it has been one of the few things different from the book that D&D have done well.

- And in the end Roose mentioned Ramsay :drool:

But beside this:

- I believe that (though Charles Dance's work 'til this episode has been awesome) both Tywin and Roose acted a bit out of character: the first one by smiling way too much and being way too much confident with a cupbearer; the second by speaking too loud for a man as the Bolton Lord.

- A wildling such as Ygritte being caught while running away by a crow who is for the first time behind the Wall? Seriously? And I loved the line of QH in which he tells Jon that he didn't ordered him to kill Ygritte but "to do what needed to be done". But they cut it and they made Jon disobeying QH who, this time, expicitly wanted him to kill Ygritte and I found it quite hilarious and stupid when his blow falls on the rock near Ygritte's head (he obviously didn't mean to kill her) and then, when she runs away Jon runs after her. Well, quite contradicting, isn't it?

- Then, about what happened in KL: First, Myrcella crying when she leaves KL while that chapter starts with "The girl never wept." referred to Myrcella. Then, even if I can understand that it would have been too much hard to act with horses during the tumult, I believe that the King's men and the people of KL were too much similar and mixed and, much more important, the chaos that was described in the books wasn't nearly represented in my opinion in the show! The crowd wasn't aggressive at all! Most of them just stood there waving their arms :mellow:

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Tywin smiling is INEXCUSABLE

That COMPLETELY goes against his character in the book. UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY

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In fact, i would argue that changing a small thing like a smile COMPLETELY undercuts who Tywin is.

He is a deadly serious, driven, ambitious egomaniac. He accepts nothing less than perfection and anyone less is less than human to him. He is utterly without a sense of humor because of the fear of the jests told at his family's expense.

little twists like that damage the story and appeal to what demographic???

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I dont like how Roose Bolton sounds... he sounds like he's announcing for an insurance commercial, like I'm in good hands with Roose. I thought he had a little wimpy voice. Also, his 'flayed man' crest on his chest, I got a good look at this week, I think it looks a little cheesy, just my opp there.

Lastly, the spooning. My wife who hasnt read the books yet was all excited, wow does that happen? Uh no babe, this is HBO, they are trying to figure out how they can weave another sex scene into this series... lol, speaking of, did anyone notice the random breast during the peasant assault in KL's? Some producer was sitting there thinking, now how do we get one more dirty shot in this episode, I got it!

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...lol, speaking of, did anyone notice the random breast during the peasant assault in KL's? Some producer was sitting there thinking, now how do we get one more dirty shot in this episode, I got it!

was that lollys?

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In my mind it was her as i really dont need to be told what is that character and why he/she wants

So if i want her to be lollys it is her

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sounds like some execs got control of portions of the script

though I wasnt complaining over the Osha getting naked scene

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To Great Dayne and others;

I would put forward that Tywin has his suspicions of Arya being high born, thus the questions. But I doubt he thinks Arya is actually a Stark. He see's her as no threat at all in any real sense, but with her dressing as a lad and obviously being sharp of wit and being a natural survivor he likes her, he can admire in her certain traits and characteristics that he can relate to. Cersi isn't clever, she's got a shallow mind, but she's pretty and that's what she was there for, Jamie was his perfect boy, with whom he had a flaw (his apparent dyslexia) and metaphorically beat it out of him. Tyrion is a curse from the Gods maybe (in his eyes)? He is an out and out patriarch and as so needs to be a fatherly figure to someone. Not in a heavy handed way, not in a way that he actually cares about the cup-girl, but he sees himself as a leader, teacher and such and as so he uses this cup girl to full fill his self appointed role.

Plus he speaks honestly and openly to his cup-girl as A) She wouldn't dare tell anyone B)Everyone needs someone to talk to and it's lonely at the top.

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Tywin smiling is INEXCUSABLE

That COMPLETELY goes against his character in the book. UTTERLY AND COMPLETELY

I wouldn't agree. He isn't a smiley happy person, but he is a person none the less. He's extreamly intelligent and a leader of men, classically educated (to their version of it), in a time where there is little room for mirth or frivolity. He is a man with very few, if any equals, but he can still find things amusing, even just in a mere sarcastic way. The Tywin we know from the books is always being in the "public eye" to his high council or children. Especially when we see him from Tyrion's POV he's hardly going to be a barrel of laugh. But he's as capable of humour as anyone and the odd wry smile adds a dimension to his character that might have been lacking otherwise.

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If they dont have Jon going over to the Wildings at Qhorin's orders, that will be a huge change. His motivations will be far less noble than doing so under orders. And I dont think it wouild have taken much effort scriptwise, let Ygritte go, next scene they are surrounded by wildings and Qhorin sees the end and gives Jon his orders. just so they could put some dry humping in there

Agreed! I'm hoping Ygritte and Jon find their way back to Qhorin Halfhand which will prompt the wildings to come looking for her/them. I can't imagine how/why they would cut Qhorin commanding Jon to yield and do anything to prove his sincerity to the wildings.

I was disappointed to see Jon and Ygritte "spooning" already! Jon had to be wore down in the book before he gave in.

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I dont like how Roose Bolton sounds... he sounds like he's announcing for an insurance commercial, like I'm in good hands with Roose. I thought he had a little wimpy voice. Also, his 'flayed man' crest on his chest, I got a good look at this week, I think it looks a little cheesy, just my opp there.

Lastly, the spooning. My wife who hasnt read the books yet was all excited, wow does that happen? Uh no babe, this is HBO, they are trying to figure out how they can weave another sex scene into this series... lol, speaking of, did anyone notice the random breast during the peasant assault in KL's? Some producer was sitting there thinking, now how do we get one more dirty shot in this episode, I got it!

Doesn't bother me at all, she seduces him eventually so they're just making it happen slightly earlier. As far as changes go this seems to be one of the more innocuous ones.

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Jaqen would not be so obvious. All of his assassinations--the three repayments, Pate--are subtle. The death of Amory Lorch (in the TV series) was obviously an assassination. I get that they were showing just how quickly a Faceless Man can get the job done, but this just seems too unlikely. Jaqen got Weese's own dog that he raised from a pup to kill him, which is just crazily awesome! I wish this death was kept true to the book.

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  • The scenes with Dany are also ridiculous. Did she ever really say, "I will take what is mine with blood and fire!" this many times in the book? It is sooooo annoying.

Considering she never said those exact words even once in any of the books so far published, the simple answer is no, she did not. In fact, despite what the show might have you believe, the phrase “what is mine” occurs once apiece in each of Clash and Storm. The phrase “mine by rights” is slightly more common, but still comparatively rare:

  • Clash: “The Starks seek to steal half my kingdom, even as the Lannisters have stolen my throne and my own sweet brother the swords and service and strongholds that are mine by rights.
  • Clash: The Iron Throne is mine by rights, but how am I to take it?
  • Clash: I want only what is mine by rights.
  • Clash: “The Iron Throne is mine by rights.
  • Clash: It is mine by rights.”
  • Clash: One last time, ser, I command you to open your gates, and deliver me that which is mine by rights.”
  • Storm: I want what is mine by rights.
  • Dance: My father’s seat is mine by rights.

Not very much, eh? The phrase “fire (SOMETHING) blood” or “blood (SOMETHING) fire” is more common. Even more interesting, it sometimes appears in places (well, people) where you would not expect it. For example, did you know Theon thought Ned was the man who’d brought blood and fire to Pyke”? Curious, eh? Here you go:

  • Clash: “They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow.”
  • Clash: The way she said it made him shiver, and when he asked what the comet meant, she answered, “Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet.”
  • Clash: The Drowned God had made them to reave and rape, to carve out kingdoms and write their names in fire and blood and song.
  • Clash: Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who’d brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home.
  • Clash: She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire.
  • Storm: Blood and fire, thought Dany.
  • Storm: “Aegon the Conqueror brought fire and blood to Westeros, but afterward he gave them peace, prosperity, and justice.
  • Feast: through a wasted land of mud and blood and fire.
  • Feast: Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, “Fire and blood.”
  • Feast: “All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire.
  • Feast: The Targaryen words are Fire and Blood.
  • Dance: “The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire.
  • Dance: And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel.
  • Dance: No, she thought, out of blood and fire.
  • Dance: You were born to serve them blood and fire.
  • Dance: Elsewise, I fear, your reign must end as it began, in blood and fire.”
  • Dance: Custom and caution had an iron grip upon us till you awakened us with fire and blood.
  • Dance: An empire built on blood and fire.
  • Dance: The dragon’s words are fire and blood.
  • Dance: “For fire and blood.”
  • Dance: For fire and blood.’
  • Dance: An offering of blood and fire, the queen’s men called it, that the Lord of Light may turn his fiery eye upon us and melt these thrice-cursed snows.
  • Dance: ‘Blood for fire, fire for blood.’
  • Dance: The prince lay abed, staring at his ceiling, dreaming without sleeping, remembering, imagining, twisting beneath his linen coverlet, his mind feverish with thoughts of fire and blood.
  • Dance: “Fire and blood,” he whispered, “blood and fire.”
  • Dance: “Fire and blood,” said Barristan Selmy, softly, softly.
  • Dance: “Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass.
  • Dance: The Targaryen words are Fire and Blood.

Go ahead, ask me about more. ;-}

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I find it laughable that IGN gave this episode a perfect TEN when it was clearly the weakest episode to date!

I think it deserved a 4 and only because of Arya/Tywin and the beginning scene in Winterfell. And even that was fucked up because of them screwing up the history and having Theon decapitate Ser Rodrick.

What a horrible episode. I feel even worse that I woke up first thing this morning to download it with such anticipation.

I won't even get into Daenery's plot....ABSOLUTE JOKE.

HBO thinks they are so smart and think they are being cute by keeping the seasons down to 10 episodes. However its becoming more and more apparent that there is NOT ENOUGH TIME to adequately portray all the important events and introduce characters that matter.

Where are the Reeds?

EDIT: Tywin Lannister was awesome in the first season but yeah his portrayal is sorta "off" these last few episodes. Arya is definitely screaming "high born lady" to me.

And are the show producers really going there and making it seem like Littlefinger realized Arya in that scene? Cuz that didn't happen in the books.

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Considering she never said those exact words even once in any of the books so far published, the simple answer is no, she did not. In fact, despite what the show might have you believe, the phrase “what is mine” occurs once apiece in each of Clash and Storm. The phrase “mine by rights” is slightly more common, but still comparatively rare:

  • Clash: “The Starks seek to steal half my kingdom, even as the Lannisters have stolen my throne and my own sweet brother the swords and service and strongholds that are mine by rights.
  • Clash: The Iron Throne is mine by rights, but how am I to take it?
  • Clash: I want only what is mine by rights.
  • Clash: “The Iron Throne is mine by rights.
  • Clash: It is mine by rights.”
  • Clash: One last time, ser, I command you to open your gates, and deliver me that which is mine by rights.”
  • Storm: I want what is mine by rights.
  • Dance: My father’s seat is mine by rights.

Not very much, eh? The phrase “fire (SOMETHING) blood” or “blood (SOMETHING) fire” is more common. Even more interesting, it sometimes appears in places (well, people) where you would not expect it. For example, did you know Theon thought Ned was the man who’d brought blood and fire to Pyke”? Curious, eh? Here you go:

  • Clash: “They say it comes as a herald before a king, to warn of fire and blood to follow.”
  • Clash: The way she said it made him shiver, and when he asked what the comet meant, she answered, “Blood and fire, boy, and nothing sweet.”
  • Clash: The Drowned God had made them to reave and rape, to carve out kingdoms and write their names in fire and blood and song.
  • Clash: Lord Eddard had tried to play the father from time to time, but to Theon he had always remained the man who’d brought blood and fire to Pyke and taken him from his home.
  • Clash: She found his cloak on the floor, twisted up tight, the white wool stained by blood and fire.
  • Storm: Blood and fire, thought Dany.
  • Storm: “Aegon the Conqueror brought fire and blood to Westeros, but afterward he gave them peace, prosperity, and justice.
  • Feast: through a wasted land of mud and blood and fire.
  • Feast: Prince Doran pressed the onyx dragon into her palm with his swollen, gouty fingers, and whispered, “Fire and blood.”
  • Feast: “All Valyrian sorcery was rooted in blood or fire.
  • Feast: The Targaryen words are Fire and Blood.
  • Dance: “The frightened child who sheltered in my manse died on the Dothraki sea, and was reborn in blood and fire.
  • Dance: And of course there was even less chance of his coming on the fragmentary, anonymous, blood-soaked tome sometimes called Blood and Fire and sometimes The Death of Dragons, the only surviving copy of which was supposedly hidden away in a locked vault beneath the Citadel.
  • Dance: No, she thought, out of blood and fire.
  • Dance: You were born to serve them blood and fire.
  • Dance: Elsewise, I fear, your reign must end as it began, in blood and fire.”
  • Dance: Custom and caution had an iron grip upon us till you awakened us with fire and blood.
  • Dance: An empire built on blood and fire.
  • Dance: The dragon’s words are fire and blood.
  • Dance: “For fire and blood.”
  • Dance: For fire and blood.’
  • Dance: An offering of blood and fire, the queen’s men called it, that the Lord of Light may turn his fiery eye upon us and melt these thrice-cursed snows.
  • Dance: ‘Blood for fire, fire for blood.’
  • Dance: The prince lay abed, staring at his ceiling, dreaming without sleeping, remembering, imagining, twisting beneath his linen coverlet, his mind feverish with thoughts of fire and blood.
  • Dance: “Fire and blood,” he whispered, “blood and fire.”
  • Dance: “Fire and blood,” said Barristan Selmy, softly, softly.
  • Dance: “Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass.
  • Dance: The Targaryen words are Fire and Blood.

Go ahead, ask me about more. ;-}

Hah, thanks for that. It is seriously the most annoying quote in the show...and the way that HBO keeps pumping up that line to make Dany look like such a badass is obnoxious. If I could, I would jump in the show every time she says and get in a cat fight with her. SHUT UP! lol. How are you going to take what is yours with blood and fire in that room??? With your baby dragons and your tiny khas??? Geez.

D&D quite clearly think they are more clever than GRRM. If they didn't, they wouldn't make such minor changes all of the time. I've always feared that they were going to deviate more and more from the show until it was almost unrecognizable, and they're right on their way to that. Switching around Dany's story from something boring to stupid....whatever. I understand how they have to change around some things to squeeze everything into 10 episodes, but changing the minor things is what annoys me most and seems really unnecessary. Like Ygritte pleading for her life, Tywin talking to his cupbearer like they're good friends, Amory Lorch just dropping dead in the doorway.....WHY?! Plus, I wanted to see him get eaten by a big black bear, like Yoren :(

Also, the books make the show look like Disney Land, especially Arya's storyline.

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What the deal with Irri?

Is she dead? Wounded? Knocked out.

(Get a better contract for a different show?)

Dany was already down to just two hand maidens, can't see the sense of reducing it down one more.

Silver was an odd turn, well that damned horse budget again.

But this does not make sense.

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