Remind me, why was Tywin a bad guy again?

[Chronicler]

I just want all the reasons >_>.

[Adam West]

Honestly, Tywin gives off no reason to be hated. In the books and especially the series. To me, he seems only concerned with the safety and an almost arrogant portrayal of his family. Which is totally understandable in my opinion. He's honestly my favorite character in the TV series at this point.

[bloodymime]

He melts down Ice because he's a greedy little merchant at heart grasping at everything he can get his sweaty little pig paws on without any respect for the honor or tradition of other Houses.

[Arch-MaesterPhilip]

Honestly, Tywin gives off no reason to be hated. In the books and especially the series. To me, he seems only concerned with the safety and an almost arrogant portrayal of his family. Which is totally understandable in my opinion. He's honestly my favorite character in the TV series at this point.

I agree. He only acts the way he does to make sure his family doesn't become the joke it had been on its way to becoming when he was a boy. He doesn't care about the cost.

[Kittyhat]

Well, for starters, he's monstrous to his children, especially Tyrion (but not only Tyrion). His only concern is for the advancement of and reputation of his house, which he's managed instead indirectly to nearly destroy by now thanks to screwing up his kids so badly. He was one of the masterminds behind an act that was akin to murdering a peace delegation. He arranged the brutal rape of an innocent girl just to make a point to his son, or possibly in part also because he's sick and twisted and got his rocks off on it somehow.

But I mean, yeah, hey. What a peach. Totally a great guy and a real role model.

[Black Unicorn]

Probably seen as a bad buy because in most moral discussions the end do not justify the means. Tywin was always a do whatever it takes kind of leader. He clearly has no qualms about trampling and sacrificing anyone for the greater good of the realm (sometimes) and his house (always). From most modern moral view points, this mentality is a bad thing.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

He presented Robert with the bodies of Rhaegar's innocent children to show his fealty.

[Sxxman]

The main reason is because of how he treats Tyrion, specifically what how he got Tyrion out of his marriage with the "prostitue" (forgot her name), Though compared to some of the Greyjoys, Drogo, Boltons, Joffrey, Boltons, the Frey, Craster and the Boltons he is quite a nice guy.

[DornishKnight]

I would only view him as I would Doran Martell if not for one unforgivable act:

The raping of Tysha.

[Kittyhat]

Probably seen as a bad buy because in most moral discussions the end do not justify the means. Tywin was always a do whatever it takes kind of leader. He clearly has no qualms about trampling and sacrificing anyone for the greater good of the realm (sometimes) and his house (always). From most modern moral view points, this mentality is a bad thing.

Incidentally, he's beginning to prove a failure from a results perspective as well. His most intellectually gifted child (Tyrion) hates him (or more accurately his corpse) and will cheerfully crap all over his legacy. His daughter is a deranged, insecure lunatic. His other, prized son is widely known as an honorless scumbag and reviled. And in general, Lannister power is beginning to crumble, and no one cares because unlike Ned, Tywin never established any real, lasting respect ... only fear.

So even if you ignore the means (which I consider insane, but for the sake of argument), Tywin still fails under careful scrutiny.

[IronSuitor]

Probably seen as a bad buy because in most moral discussions the end do not justify the means. Tywin was always a do whatever it takes kind of leader. He clearly has no qualms about trampling and sacrificing anyone for the greater good of the realm (sometimes) and his house (always). From most modern moral view points, this mentality is a bad thing.

The ends always justify the means - provided they actually justify them. Tywin's ends are selfish and short sighted and his means are near genocidal.

Not to mention that he failed even in his limited and self-centered goals. House Lannister is headed for a long, hard fall.

[The King in the South]

Probably that whole killing children, abusing his own children, pillaging the innocent smallfolk, etc stuff. People usually don't approve of that.

[All-for-Joffrey]

The ends always justify the means - provided they actually justify them. Tywin's ends are selfish and short sighted and his means are near genocidal.

Not to mention that he failed even in his limited and self-centered goals. House Lannister is headed for a long, hard fall.

To be fair, I think the fall of House Lannister is due to his children, namely Cersei and Jaime but especially Cersei. Tyrion also assisted by putting Tywin out of the game and giving Cersei full reign of things. If Tyrion hadn't cross-bowed him on the privy and Tywin continued to be the power behind the throne, the state of affairs in Westeros would be a lot more stable and House Lannister would be as strong as it was in the first three books. Cersei, and to some extent Jaime, basically ran it into the ground after that.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

I don't know if he was truly bad......he did what he thought was best....

he DID keep many things in line.....

well ok some of his methods (the Mountain....) were questionable...and he didn't always think ahead....(burning all the crops right before winter so now everyone is starving)

now with the Red Wedding....I think slaughtering a few starks in a wedding WAS far more cost-effective than waging an endless war

he was just out of touch with the smallfolk so while his iron-fisted rule was generally successful, it wasn't always to the benefit of all

[IronSuitor]

To be fair, I think the fall of House Lannister is due to his children, namely Cersei and Jaime but especially Cersei. Tyrion also assisted by putting Tywin out of the game and giving Cersei full reign of things. If Tyrion hadn't cross-bowed him on the privy and Tywin continued to be the power behind the throne, the state of affairs in Westeros would be a lot more stable and House Lannister would be as strong as it was in the first three books. Cersei, and to some extent Jaime, basically ran it into the ground after that.

And who is most responsible for temperaments of said children? Indeed, the simple act of giving Tyrion his due would have avoided a lot of trouble.

[bbqq]

I always thought his main bad point is he actively utilizes men such as Gregor Clegane and Amory Lorch in his forces, despite knowing the crimes these men commit (Gregor killed Aegon and raped his mother, Amory killed Rhaenys, to name two) and partially because of the effect these people have on his enemies, and therefore a benefit to his fearsome reputation. Seems that he's such an utter pragmatist that is also renders him completely amoral, which is pretty 'bad guy' to me, as far as anyone is in ASOIAF.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

He ordered the murders of Aegon and Rhaenys Targaryen. He treated his son like dirt and allowed that son's wife to be gang-raped. He put such impossible expectations on the two children he did allegedly like that both of them seem warped, although Jaime has promise. He specifically ordered Gregor Clegane and others to destroy the Riverlands, causing untold death and destruction. He abetted the kangaroo trial of his son and, I believe, would have gone through with that son's execution. When he couldn't defeat Robb Stark in the field, he cowardly let others do the dirty work for him, an act that's considered an abomination across the entire country.

But yeah. Nice guy, gets a bad rap. :shocked:

[Monk Meth-]

he isn't a bad guy.

[The Taupe Grace]

Wouldn't say bad, but I would say: determined, steely and ruthless when it comes to the interests of his House and reputation.

In terms of things he's done that are morally or ethically questionable, a few examples follow:

• parading his father's mistress naked through the streets to teach her a lesson about knowing your place.
  
• continued coldness towards Tyrion, forcing the gangrape and eviction of his young wife and love of his life for the sake of his family honor
  
• not ordering, but endorsing the killing of Rhaegar's children by laying them at Robert's feet as a token of fealty.
  
• The Reynes of Castamere?
  

I'm sure other's have a host more. He's bad in the sense that he's ruthless and will employ cruel and violent methods to punish those who disobey him, or to uphold the honour of his house. However he's not unnecessarily cruel, nor does he enjoy violence for the sake of it. There is good reason that he was for a long time the most powerful man in the 7 Kingdoms.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

Never got why he'd be with Shae but it makes it seem like he had dangerous sexual issues.