In defense of Sansa

[Tynidian]

The Queen Regent used her beauty and cunning to achieve short term and selfish ends, while Sansa will likely use the same methods for much more "admirable" goals.

I do hope that with "the same methods" you mean she's going to fuck everybody she needs (moonboy for all we know!).

If she's going to use her beauty more in an unreachable woman way than in the Cersei way.

SPOILER: AFFC (since we're in the general forum)

Even though she ís going to marry Harry the heir I'm not sure if she's going to lose her maidenhead to him. Did Tyrion leave her alone to show us his character, was it to leave her legally free for another (harry the heir) or is there something else?

My opinion about Sansa is just as divided as it is about Jaime. Sansa did some really stupid things (agree with the "how can she live with herself post above") but she could make the house Stark great once again. Same for Jaime... he may redeem not only himself, but as head of the house of Lannister he might even do some good things with its power and gold.

[Grumpygoat]

Same for Jaime... he may redeem not only himself, but as head of the house of Lannister he might even do some good things with its power and gold.

If Jaime ever does anything with the Lannister's power and gold, he's effectively fallen off the path of redemption, as messing around with either essentially means he's no longer a member of the Kingsguard, or is flagrantly ignoring his position.

[Yana]

If Jaime ever does anything with the Lannister's power and gold, he's effectively fallen off the path of redemption, as messing around with either essentially means he's no longer a member of the Kingsguard, or is flagrantly ignoring his position.

I agree. As a member of KG, he is not entitled to Lannister's gold and position. Tyrion is the one who should inherit it all. It may be difficult now, but in the end he should. That would be justice...

[jon tarkaryen]

"Betrayal" implies a conscious knowledge of the implications of one's actions. Sansa didn't realize what would come of her telling Cersei that they were leaving. Yes, it was a stupid, irrational, immature, and ultimately very harmful action. But it was one done out of ignorance, not malice.

how is that important? Eddards head still roll off,thanks to her.

[Grumpygoat]

how is that important? Eddards head still roll off,thanks to her.

No, it doesn't. Absolutely nothing Sansa did lead to Ned's death.

Sansa informed Cersei that Ned planned on sending his children back to Winterfell. Ned intended on remaining behind in King's Landing.

All Sansa did was wind up screwing herself and Arya over.

Robert still died, Ned still would've supported Stannis over the Lannisters, and the Gold Cloaks still would've captured Ned. From there, Ned's execution came about entirely due to Joffrey and possibly Littlefinger.

[Juba]

I think the reason people don't like Sansa is because she's selfish. That's how Martin wrote the character. She isn't a malicious evil, she's just amazingly self centered. Her selfish actions have terrible consequences for her family and herself as well. Most of her chapters are spent bemoaning her situation, which she never takes any responsibility for. In fact, I don't ever remember her being sorry for any of the bad things her actions caused her family.

If you closely read the Sansa chapters throughout the series, she never thinks about anyones feelings or situation. It's all about her. There are numerous instances when Jon, Arya and Bran think about their fellow siblings, missing their presence, worrying about them. Sansa never does that. If anyone can come up with an example in the text where she worries about or misses her siblings, I'd like to see it.

Today when re-reading A Clash of Kings, I came across this:

Arya says-"Even Sansa, I'll kiss her and beg her pardons like a proper lady, she'll like that."

There is also the situation with Lady, Arya rushes to Lady's defense, but Sansa blames Arya for Lady's death. She never even considers what part she played in Lady's death.

I'm amazed at how many people "like" this character. I find her interesting and love her chapters, but only because she is so well written as a realistic self centered character. Again, that's how Martin wrote her. Often it's people like this who can cause more pain and damage than "evil" people do.

[Snuffles]

Do any of you guys think that in time it will be Sansa, and not Margaery Tyrell who turns out to be the “younger, and more beautiful†prophetic antagonist that Cersei is so afraid of?

[Grumpygoat]

Do any of you guys think that in time it will be Sansa, and not Margaery Tyrell who turns out to be the “younger, and more beautiful†prophetic antagonist that Cersei is so afraid of?

Margaery's as likely to be the young and more beautiful queen from Cersei's prophecy as Stannis to be Azor Ahai Reborn.

I'd peg Dany as the likeliest candidate, with Sansa coming in just behind.

And in response to Juba: Truth be told, Sansa frustrates the hell out of me. During A Game of Thrones I wanted to smack her and call her a nit on more than one occasion.

However, nearly every boneheaded move she's done has rebounded and hurt her most of all. She didn't tell the truth when Nymeria attacked Joffrey, but it was Lady who suffered for that. She informed to Cersei that Ned was shipping her and Arya off, and Sansa was made hostage and suffered through beatings from the Kingsguard.

Everytime she's made a poor decision, karma almost immediately pulled back its hand and smacked her full across the face for it.

And at this point, I think she's finally realized that beauty isn't everything (Cersei, Joffrey), and that nobility can hide behind a monster's countenance (Sandor).

She's not my favorite character, but I think the amount of hate she receives is undeserved, and do want her knight in shining armor to come rescue her - while she's still at the cusp of wisdom without tumbling down the path of corruption.

[Jon Targaryen]

No, it doesn't. Absolutely nothing Sansa did lead to Ned's death.

Not entirely. GRRM has said, "The way I see it, it is not a case of all or nothing. No single person is to blame for Ned's downfall. Sansa played a role, certainly, but it would be unfair to put all the blame on her."

[Wolf Girl]

If you closely read the Sansa chapters throughout the series, she never thinks about anyones feelings or situation. It's all about her. There are numerous instances when Jon, Arya and Bran think about their fellow siblings, missing their presence, worrying about them. Sansa never does that. If anyone can come up with an example in the text where she worries about or misses her siblings, I'd like to see it.

I'd have to search for the exact passages, but in fact, Sansa does often think of her family. When she believes she's to marry Willas Tyrell she begins dreaming of children named Bran, Rickon, and Eddard; she wants to recapture the loved ones that were lost. There was something like "and sometimes [in her daydreams] there was even a girl who looked a little like Arya," as well. After the Red Wedding she grieves quietly and privately, but strongly, and on the day of Joffrey's wedding, when she wants to hide behind closed doors, she tells herself that she has to be strong, "the way Robb had been." She thinks of Robb most of all, praying for his victories and safety, and praying for her mother as well. And, as somone mentioned above, she also thinks of Jon, and not in the childish, Catelyn-taught selfish manner either. Her whole life is defined by grief for her family: she fears for herself, but she mourns them.

[Artanaro]

I do hope that with "the same methods" you mean she's going to fuck everybody she needs (moonboy for all we know!).

If she's going to use her beauty more in an unreachable woman way than in the Cersei way.

I agree this will often be the case, but if she develops Littlefinger's pragmatism, then I could see her going all the way in certain instances. She definitely won't do it as often as Cersei, but that's because the queen is a sex addict. It's very dangerous for a woman to be very promiscous when playing the Game of Thrones, so I imagine the case would be for either a) Littlefinger to be removed Cersei or the Lannister regime to be destroyed or c) to save someone she loves. Sansa has more intelligence than Cersei, and therefore I believe she will have far better results.

Artanaro

[Juba]

Very true Wolf Girl, I overlooked those passages. That reminds me of when she compares Little Lady Bulwer to Arya too.

Even so, it is much rarer than the other Stark children we have POV's for. I still argue that she never takes any responsibility for the consequences of her actions. She is very good at seeing other people's flaws, but unwilling to examine her own. In short, a very realistic character. That is how George R.R. Martin wrote her.

[nix]

Very true Wolf Girl, I overlooked those passages. That reminds me of when she compares Little Lady Bulwer to Arya too.

Even so, it is much rarer than the other Stark children we have POV's for. I still argue that she never takes any responsibility for the consequences of her actions. She is very good at seeing other people's flaws, but unwilling to examine her own. In short, a very realistic character. That is how George R.R. Martin wrote her.

And that is also why in my opinion never be a master manipulator, even if she is being taught by LF. To be able to successfully manipulate people, she will need to get into their heads, find out about what motivates them, and use that to guide them and their actions into the direction Sansa wants to go, without seeming to obvious about it. She can do that based on people's flaws, but that would probably mean she can only get away with it once or twice, since it will lead to people actively disliking her (nobody likes to be confronted with their flaws and/ or feeling blackmailed into a certain direction. The most successfull manipulators can get people to move into a direction they believe they want in the first place, completely unaware of any manipulation. To be that skilled at manipulating, you have to know yourself and the effect you have on people as well as your own ultimate goal pretty well). Unless Sansa can let go off her unwillingness to examine herself, get to know her motivation, and form herself in other's image without losing sight of her identity and her goals, she will not be a master at the game. And unless she is willing to ruthlessly examine her own actions, the consequences of those actions and her own culpabilities, she will never learn from them and therefore won't become an active player.

With regard to Sansa's ultimate goals, and 'goodness' versus 'evil', I believe that manipulation in itself is not necessarily evil. It would depend on the end goal in sight. WHat we have seen from Sansa up til now in most of the books was centered very much on herself, and later her own survival. Which is again pretty realistic when you look at the situation she is in. But it also makes it difficult for me to judge what her goals will be if she actually matures enough -including self knowledge- to become an active player.

[RhaegarTargaryen]

I dont think Sansa really knows what she wants. Sure she wants her loved ones and she said she wanted to see Jon one last time. But she doesnt know if she wants the Eyrie, or Winterfell or waht. She still seems to be a major pawn in the game. And for some reason, i dont think that she will stop being a pawn. She seems the niave type still, with her claims and her personality(innocence), people will never stop trying to use her.

[Jon Targaryen]

I still argue that she never takes any responsibility for the consequences of her actions.

I defintely agree.

[Artanaro]

Even so, it is much rarer than the other Stark children we have POV's for. I still argue that she never takes any responsibility for the consequences of her actions. She is very good at seeing other people's flaws, but unwilling to examine her own.

I think this is applicable to everyone of the Stark children, Robb and Arya especially. People need to remember what we know as the reader is far different from Sansa's perspective on what happened. The reader might know that telling Cersei what she knew assisted in Ned's death, but there is little reason that she should draw the same conclusion. She doesn't know about Renly's and Littlefinger's betrayals nor even the circumstances that led to Ned being executed (his claim to regency, the confrontation in the throne room, etc).

There are other situations you may be alluding to, such as in the case of the direwolf mauling Joffrey, but even this one isn't so clear cut. Sansa lies and loses her direwolf, because of it. Arya's actions were the catalyst for the situation (though Joffrey was the instigator for the conflict), so from Sansa's perspective her sister was the cause. This is true, even if Arya doesn't shoulder all of the responsibility for what happened (but her direwolf did maul Joffrey, nevertheless, means she should shoulder some). Now, how does Sansa "accept responsibility for the consequences" of what happened? Does she say all the fault is hers, when that's not true? It's a natural response to justify a person's action inside their own mind. Tyrion does it, as well as Catelyn, Eddard, and many other povs. So why do people single Sansa out?

Artanaro

[Alwyn]

Sansa bugs me, she always has and she still does, through a Game of Thrones Paritcualrly I wnated nothing more than to slap her.

I agree with alot of people here who say that she is self centered. Yes she still is very self centered that's defintely true. But I think the thing I will never frogive her for somehow is that she forgave herself so easily. She didn't beat herself up about any of the horrible things she, at least partially provoked, I get this impression from aGoT but this is perhaps only because the charcters are less well developed here. Also she almsot forgave the Lannisters too easily. I would have liked to have seen her not submit so easily to them, she is even almost amiabel with Cersei even after the incedent with her father. The thing about Sansa is she is still young, that's true, and she's weak. She lets all the other people in the game manipulate her and use her. She's not, proactive for lack of a better word, even if she has given up on her dreams of shinning knights she is still wiating for someone to save her (the Tyrells by wedding her to Wyllas, her brother with his war...) instead of coping with her situation herself. I would be prepared to like Sansa if she grew a little less naive (she needs to stop trusting Littlefinger!) and became a bit braver. This is what divides her from her sister. She needs to stop being a little bird and become a little wolf.

And speaking of wolves: How well do we think all this can end for Sansa, having lost Lady and all?

Also someone mentionned could Sansa be the younger more beautiful one Cersei feared all along. I personnally agree that Dany is the one who is prophesized. However I think Cersei must have thought is was Sansa when she was engaged to Joffrey. That may explain one of the reasons she married her to Tyrion and some of her weird hate towards her. It is sort of an Oedipen complex in reverse, not unheard of, an overprotectionism of mothers in regards to their sons. Alot of mothers hate any of their son's grilfriends of wives of whatever because they feel that these women are stealing their sons, replacing them. This is what cersei seems to think the younger fairer girl is meant to do, replace her by marrying one of her sons. However she's not facotring in Dany who is planning to tkae Westeros by force not marriage.

[Tropico]

I definitely do get frustrated at how little Sansa thinks back on the things she did.

I mean, even though she wasn't 100% the reason Ned got captured and killed, she doesn't know this, and from where she's standing, she was. You'd think she'd beat herself up a little from time to time.

But she doesn't see anything really wrong with what she did, just, Man I trusted them and they betrayed me. Bummer.

Maybe her losing Lady will culminate in her actually transforming into little Cersei. Like she lost her soul when she lost her wolf or something like that. Who knows.

[Grumpygoat]

I would have liked to have seen her not submit so easily to them, she is even almost amiabel with Cersei even after the incedent with her father. The thing about Sansa is she is still young, that's true, and she's weak. She lets all the other people in the game manipulate her and use her.

Sansa's submission is the only reason she didn't get killed. If she were Arya, Joffrey would've likely raped and murdered her himself. As it is, Sansa's attempts at playing nice still wound up getting her smacked around. A bit of petulance and someone like Ser Meryn Trant would've run her through before Cersei could tell him "No."

That's rather the point. If Arya were in Sansa's shoes, she'd have died. If Sansa were in Arya's shoes, she'd have died.

I find it hard to fault a girl for wanting to live.

And any bit of geniality she might have shown the Lannisters wasn't forgiveness. It's because when they killed Ned, something died inside of her. Something that's withering away all the more for Littlefinger's presence.

[DanteGabriel]

I think if Sansa actually allowed herself to think back and reflect on the things she'd been responsible for (Mycah, Lady, selling out her dad's plans to Cersei) all her POV chapters would be a nonstop litany of her crying and moaning. The mind defends itself against unbearable things.

That being said, while I loathed the things she did, I couldn't blame her for them. She was twelve years old and saw her betrothed and her Queen conspire to imprison and kill her father! She was stuck in the heart of enemy territory, forcibly married into the family that killed her own family, alone and friendless, with people only showing her kindness because they wanted her claim to Winterfell. I think Martin wrote Sansa realistically. Sometimes, little girls do stupid things. Especially little girls who have been trained from birth to be gracious, decorous ladies, expecting nothing from life but to marry a handsome and powerful lord and raise a family.

Didn't Tyrion, at some point, observe how deft Sansa was at the social games of Westerosi nobility? That struck me as foreshadowing that Sansa would become a force to be reckoned with. I'm awaiting her coming into her own.