In defense of Sansa

[Alwyn]

But...she didn't. She just said she did, for self-preservation. Just as she never thought Robb or her mother were traitors: it was something she learned to spout.

She beleived it in the beginning, when she still though Joffrey and Cersei were wonderful people, she believed them when they said her father was a traitor.

And as for the self-centeredness, by all the seven hells she's unbelievable! She even forgets to ask about her sister in aGoT after everything is in chaos, before Ned dies.

The thing I think most of us reproach Sansa for is that she's not Stark enough. She never apprecuated being stark, her bonds to her family were weak and she has none of Ned in her it would seem.

[Juba]

Itm, I never said it was Sansa's fault alone that any of those things happened.

What I did say is that she never feels bad about, or questions the part she played in the death of Lady and Mycah. It would be different if Sansa had said in her POV that she felt bad about the Butcher Boy's death, or examined it in any way. She doesn't. Even if her hands were completely clean, she doesn't even think about it.

Not only Arya, but Ned also thinks about and feels sorry about the death of Mycah in his POV. So if two of the three POV's we have at the scene think about and feel sorry for Mycah and one doesn't, but in fact blames everyone but herself, what are we to conclude? Seems pretty obvious. If it isn't in her POV, anything else is speculation, pure and simple. There is really no disputing this. It's on the written page or it isn't.

What bothers me is when people (not singling out anyone, but many who post on these forums) take their interpretation about a character and act as if that somehow makes it canon. It doesn't. Martin wrote what he wrote. If it isn't written in a POV, then it is speculation. It is your interpretation. Could turn out to be true someday, but until he writes it, we won't know.

The original claim of this forum was "in defense of Sansa". I have stated numerous times that she is what she is, flawed and human, as written by the author. Why does she need defending?

[Wolf Girl]

She beleived it in the beginning, when she still though Joffrey and Cersei were wonderful people, she believed them when they said her father was a traitor.

I'm going to have to re-read again...I certainly didn't get this impression on any of my reads. I thought she was saying what they wanted to hear because she knew she was in her interest to let them hear it.

And as for the self-centeredness, by all the seven hells she's unbelievable! She even forgets to ask about her sister in aGoT after everything is in chaos, before Ned dies.

Agreed, that's bad. And not mentioning her to Robb/Cat in the letter. Bad.

What I did say is that she never feels bad about, or questions the part she played in the death of Lady and Mycah. It would be different if Sansa had said in her POV that she felt bad about the Butcher Boy's death, or examined it in any way. She doesn't. Even if her hands were completely clean, she doesn't even think about it.

Excellent point.

[ltm]

Here is what was said,

"Often it's people (Sansa) like this who cause more pain and damage

than the evil people do"

All three individuals mentioned in my previous post had power Sansa did not which makes them the cause of the pain and damage they inflicted. If this series is about anything it's about the use of power, the abuse of power and who really has it???

Do you honestly think Cersei faced with what was a insult to the crown and a tacit attack on her authority would have done nothing if Sansa hac backed up Arya. Is there some twentith century notion of justice and fair play working in the corriders of power of Westeros? Are lowly

butchers boys really going to get off with small warnings for being "party" to an attack on the heir to throne? You honestly think Cersei would have accepted Joffery's part or would she have called both girls liars. Given the woman's history, what do you think?

Martin in an interview even used the example of Mycah to point that his fate WAS the fate of many with brushes on the wrong side of authority

in the medieval world. Mycah was dead the minute he was involved in an attack

on the prince. somebody was going to pay for that. Ned was dead the minute his protector Robert died,

Lady maybe might have survived but ....no guarentee there. Maybe Joffery might have got punished...again no guarentee.

Sansa gets defended because the other players in these little dramas

had far more power than an eleven year old girl and made their CHOICES to do what they did. There is no evidence to suggest choices would have been any different had Sansa done thing differently. Cersei would still want revenge for Joffery. Various court factions still wanted Ned's hide,

Joffery was still a sadist with absolute authority. Sansa's behavior only

gave them little additions, no change in her actions would have made a snowballs chance in hell or preventing much of anything once the power of the state turned on the Starks.

As for her remorse, I think I'll wait until the entire series is finished to judge whether Sansa has remorse or not. Only fair huh???

[Jon Targaryen]

I think what you say is true but I don't see how that lessens what Sansa did. She omitted the truth. It doesn't matter to me that Cersei would have still done her thing.

[Artanaro]

And as for the self-centeredness, by all the seven hells she's unbelievable! She even forgets to ask about her sister in aGoT after everything is in chaos, before Ned dies.

I make bigger assumptions than most people on this board, but negative ones are the hardest to show valid. Remember, we don't see much of what happens to Sansa around the time Eddard is removed from power. To say she doesn't ask for her sister in AGOT is presumptious. We never see her ask about Jeyne Pool, but that was her best friend and she most likely did.

The thing I think most of us reproach Sansa for is that she's not Stark enough. She never apprecuated being stark, her bonds to her family were weak and she has none of Ned in her it would seem.

This is all very wrong, but let me explain why.

I don't know what you mean by not "appreciating being stark," so I can't really argue on that, but I will say that she has a fondness for knights and gallantry, which was shared by her brother, Bran, and her uncle, Brandon. If they're fully Stark, what's wrong with Sansa? There are no personality traits that make someone a Stark. Eddard is cold, but Lyanna and Brandon had fiery natures. There have probably been Starks like Sansa just as much as Arya.

In terms of her family bonds, she has a poor relationship with Arya, but they're both equally responsible for that. It's simply a conflict of personality types. She has shown countless acts of grief at losing her family (and her wolf), so she must have had some bonds with them. Catelyn looks upon Sansa with love, so I imagine Sansa returned the same feelings.

In terms of having none of Ned in her, Sansa has more Ned than Arya does. Sansa is the one who tries to obey rules, unlike her sister. The foil between Ned and Robert is very much like the character foil between Ned's daughers. Sansa worshiped the seven, but during the series, she's spent far more time in the godswood than Arya has. Sansa is regularly praying, while her sister just counts down her death wishes. Who is it that is among the most religious in the family? Eddard of course. Also, his character is known for keeping suffering and personal thoughts inside, which is what Sansa has had to do. If anything, she is becoming more and more like her father everyday. Perhaps you say she wasn't a Stark in AGOT, but considering how Arya rarely prays, regularly disobeyed her parents, and was nothing but enamored by fighting, Ned's youngest daughter was his polar opposite.

Artanaro

[Diva]

I make bigger assumptions than most people on this board, but negative ones are the hardest to show valid. Remember, we don't see much of what happens to Sansa around the time Eddard is removed from power. To say she doesn't ask for her sister in AGOT is presumptious.

actually, the very end of that chapter in AGoT, her final thought is something like, "It wasn't until much later, when she was back in her room, that she realised she had forgotten to ask about Arya."

this after being shut up with Jeyne Poole for 3 days and nights, and while fighting was going on around them. Definitely self centred.

As for watching her father be executed. Yes, she did. Why? Because she betrayed his plans to Cersei. Otherwise she and Arya would not have been at Kings Landing. Even if Robert had died and everything else had fallen out as it did, Cersei would not have had her as a hostage to leverage against Ned for his 'confession'.

As for feeling guilt, i have this little anecdote:

As a child, my father was involved in politics. When I was 10, my teacher had us all telling stories about home / family at school, to do with home life. My bitch teacher then rang the local paper and radio stations to tell them what I had said, so they could run stories against my dad. (It wasn't even anything bad, just stuff you know).

I was absolutely devastated. I felt so guilty that I couldn't look or speak to that teacher for the rest of the year. No-one died, there wasn't even really any bad fallout. But I felt that I had let my family down and betrayed my father. Even though he did not say anything except to learn from that lesson in future. (And my parents laid a formal complaint against her, but she transferred out after that anyway.

My point is, at 10 years old I was wracked with guilt. Sansa shows none. Even if she doesn't know exactly *what* her part in the situation was, she knows that her father was planning on taking her and Arya away and breaking her engagement, and she told the Queen because she didn't want that to happen. And yet, how wise her father was, because wasn't she delighted when Joffery broke the betrothal. Even *then* she doesn't think "Dad was right, I wish I had trusted him."

[Watcher]

The only reason why Cersie believes that it was Sansa that betrayed her faimly is because Cersie is so inept she couldn't figure out Ned wanted his kids out of KL for their safety.

Ned was attacked in public, his men were killed and he was injured and Cersie needed a 12 year old girl to tell her that Ned wanted his kids someplace safe! Uhh duh!

And Cersie is so vindictive that she truly believes it was Sansa that caused Ned's downfall. That speaks more to Cersie hateful nature then it does to Sansa naiveness.

I think where Sansa shows her true character is during the Battle of Blackwater. She holds the ladies together in the Red Keep while Cersie just gets drunk and almost loses KL by pulling Joff off the front. That was when I became a Sansa fan.

But I don't think Sansa future is bright, she lost her direwolf.

[WhiteQueen]

I love Sansa - she is my favourite character. Even her flaws are endearing as they are near and dear to anyone who's ever been a pre-teen or had a sibling. Sure, she gets a lot of blame for fighting with Arya, but that's what sisters do (or brothers). She told Cersei about Ned planning to send her out of KL, which let to his arrest (one of the reasons), but she did not know it was going to end like that, and who at 11-22 actually believes that their parents know better than the kids do what's best for them?

She has been through so much and has known so little happiness, still she has so much goodness in her. I hope she'll stay alive till the end and gets reunited with some of her Stark siblings. I think, she will outplay and outsmart Littlefinger somehow, and that's already a lot. That should be a logical closing of the circle: Littlefinger told Catelyn that the dagger that was used to kill Bran was Tyrion's and caused the beginning of the civil war with that, which resulted in Ned, Catelyn and Robb dying, Bran and Rickon losing their house and wandering around, Arya abroad learning to become a murderer, Sansa losing her Stark identity and in the hands of the man who planted the seed of these awful events. Logically, she should orchestrate his fall. I can't wait to read that.

[Seventh Pup]

and no one ever gets on Arya's case for being almost stupidly impudent and headstrong. But Arya's survival traits are more exciting to readers then Sansa's "do what they say and maybe they won't kill you" strategy.

Yes many people get on Arya's case. Well Sansa by get a lot of "she's so weak minded, she betrayed her family!" Arya gets "She's a psychopath, she'd probably kill Sansa now if she knew the truth about Sansa's betrayal!". There are no universally loved PoV's in these books.

I feel for the girl, she seems way more realistic than Arya's meandering journey which often times plays like a comedy of errors.

There is also no universal "real" little girl. Both Sansa and Arya are very real in their own way. Arya will fight even when she should submit; Sansa will submit even when she should fight. Two sides of the same coin.

She had a hand in her fathers death, but so did Ned, Robert, Jaime, Cersi, Littlefinger, and Joffrey.

The difference of course is the Sansa unlike Robert, Jaime, Cersi, Littlefinger, and Joffrey is his daughter. She SHOULD have listened to her father, after the Lady incident, and the Jory incident she SHOULD have understood what kind of person the Queen and Lannistars where. 11 year olds aren't as stupid as people seem to remember them being. 11 is more then old enough to process "they killed my pet" "they've killed our men" they aren't trust worthy. However Sansa very much wants to stay in KL that is so much exciting then Winterfell. She puts her blinders on high, and instead believes what she wants, instead of what, even at 11, should have been apparent. And though she doesn't know the full consequences of her actions she does do something that is against her lord fathers orders. She does choose to betray him, even if she thinks it will be a little betrayal.

I also find it very interesting that’s Sansa's biggest crime is being naive and superficial.

Her biggest crime is putting her wants above her family, betraying her father and her sister, that and being stupid. She is slowly getting out of her stupid mood but she has a long way to go. Her lying about Arya and Nymeria was naive. That she chose not to fully process Lady's death and the death of Jory and her father's men is stupid.

Don't get me wrong I don't hate Sansa, but god she bores me, and annoys me. I don't wish her dead, or anything bad to happen to her. I just really wish she had married Willas Tyrell and left the story.

Now I hope she can weather LF plans for her (and I don't believe him for a second that the plans he told her in AFFC are his real plans for her), I hope that the Young Falcon is nice to her, and in general I hope she has a decent life. She's still annoying though.

[Errant Bard]

Arya gets "She's a psychopath, she'd probably kill Sansa now if she knew the truth about Sansa's betrayal!". There are no universally loved PoV's in these books.

Actually, I think most people saying Arya is a psycho still like her and her PoV.

I know I am convinced that she is written to be a cold, dark killer at the limit of evilness, but I actually like her for that, and for what she is apparently going to become. I want her to be like that.

However, there are people that genuinely dislike her PoV because she is either boring in her singlemindedness, or because she actually settles in an assassin training camp instead of pursuing her family.

For Sansa, I don't like her attitude, because she's not connected to reality at first but I really like the potentiality of her PoV. She has what it takes to make scheming Cersei look even more pathetic once she starts acknowledging the real world. And most of all she has what it takes to make a perfect foil for anyone written close to her, be it littlefinger, Dany or Arya (I long for a grown up Arya Sansa meeting).

[Seventh Pup]

Actually, I think most people saying Arya is a psycho still like her and her PoV.

I know I am convinced that she is written to be a cold, dark killer at the limit of evilness, but I actually like her for that, and for what she is apparently going to become. I want her to be like that.

I don't think Arya will ever be heartless. But she's defiantly moving towards a dark place; as long as she remembers who she is I think she will be alright though. (Please GRRM don't kill Arya!)

However, there are people that genuinely dislike her PoV because she is either boring in her single-mindedness, or because she actually settles in an assassin training camp instead of pursuing her family.

I don't know I think Arya made a really, really, good faith effort to get back to her family. Even after she thought everyone but Jon was dead she tries to get up to the Wall. Still every one reads the books differently. I’ve seen people who also where annoyed because they thought Arya was bratty. No one is universally liked.

(I long for a grown up Arya Sansa meeting).

There are many reunions I long for. But I think one of the best would be a Sandor, Sansa, and Arya reunion. Can you just imagine it?

[Errant Bard]

I don't know I think Arya made a really, really, good faith effort to get back to her family. Even after she thought everyone but Jon was dead she tries to get up to the Wall. Still every one reads the books differently. I’ve seen people who also where annoyed because they thought Arya was bratty. No one is universally liked.

I'm not arguing that she didn't make efforts or anything, I was just giving random reasons ont he top of my head that Ir emembered people giving in Arya threads.

There are many reunions I long for. But I think one of the best would be a Sandor, Sansa, and Arya reunion. Can you just imagine it?

Actually the only way I can imagine it happening would break the cheese-o-meter and require the use of the infinite improbability drive, so.... no. please no. Let sleeping dogs lie.

[Seventh Pup]

Actually the only way I can imagine it happening would break the cheese-o-meter and require the use of the infinite improbability drive, so.... no. please no. Let sleeping dogs lie.

I know. But hey I love improbability drive. (Please note I was joking )

[Wouter]

I'd have to search for the exact passages, but in fact, Sansa does often think of her family. When she believes she's to marry Willas Tyrell she begins dreaming of children named Bran, Rickon, and Eddard; she wants to recapture the loved ones that were lost. There was something like "and sometimes [in her daydreams] there was even a girl who looked a little like Arya," as well. After the Red Wedding she grieves quietly and privately, but strongly, and on the day of Joffrey's wedding, when she wants to hide behind closed doors, she tells herself that she has to be strong, "the way Robb had been." She thinks of Robb most of all, praying for his victories and safety, and praying for her mother as well. And, as somone mentioned above, she also thinks of Jon, and not in the childish, Catelyn-taught selfish manner either. Her whole life is defined by grief for her family: she fears for herself, but she mourns them.

Yes, Sansa prays for Jon, and even for the commoner soldiers on the Blackwater, in the sept in KL. Moreover, she cares for Lancel when he's wounded even though he's an enemy and he treated her like shit. She cares for Tommen and encourages him, at the tourney and when Myrcella leaves. She is worried about Margaery going to marry Joffrey. In the Eyrie, she cares about Brune and Mya. Seems to me like Sansa is one of the most empathic POV's, contrary to those who state that she never thinks about others.

This also shows into how her non-sadistic enemies treat her; Arys Oakheart and Kevan Lannister for example, seem to like her quite a bit. And why not, as long as she isn't with Arya she's pretty sweet.

As for her causing Eddard's fall, GRRM may have said she played "some" part, but it should be noted that Ned himself warned Cersei and that his plan hinged on Littlefingers loyalty in buying the gold cloaks. He was dead the moment he trusted Lf, IMO. Or does anyone think that if Sansa hadn't gone to Cersei, then LF would suddenly have remained loyal to Ned?

Margaery's as likely to be the young and more beautiful queen from Cersei's prophecy as Stannis to be Azor Ahai Reborn.

It always amazes me that Margaery is dismissed so easily. She already brought about Cersei's fall, for all practical purposes, she has as good as taken Joffrey and Tommen from her and she is a queen, and not hard on the eye at all. What more do we want?

And that is also why in my opinion never be a master manipulator, even if she is being taught by LF. To be able to successfully manipulate people, she will need to get into their heads, find out about what motivates them, and use that to guide them and their actions into the direction Sansa wants to go, without seeming to obvious about it.

She seems to have been able to manipulate "Sweetrobin" just fine, and he doesn't hate her, far from it even.

I dont think Sansa really knows what she wants. Sure she wants her loved ones and she said she wanted to see Jon one last time. But she doesnt know if she wants the Eyrie, or Winterfell or waht.

I have never seen an indication that she wants the Eyrie (we don't see her reaction to LF's proposal). What she wants most seems to be to go home to Winterfel (not necessarily ruling it), but since it is a ruin...

Just surviving (and getting lemon cakes and nice dresses) seems to be the main concern now.

She didn't beat herself up about any of the horrible things she, at least partially provoked, I get this impression from aGoT but this is perhaps only because the charcters are less well developed here. Also she almsot forgave the Lannisters too easily. I would have liked to have seen her not submit so easily to them, she is even almost amiabel with Cersei even after the incedent with her father.

And if she had "beaten herself up", halft the board would be on her to declare her a whiner, no doubt!

As for forgiving the Lannisters, Tyrion might have a different opinion on that. Funny that people resent both her treatment of Tyrion and her being too forgiving with the Lannisters. Sansa hates Cersei and is afraid of her, don't doubt that. And she didn't appreciate a forced marriage with one her enemies either, knowing full well that it was a grab for Winterfell. Sansa did recognize that she screwed up with going to Cersei, which is why she vowed never to trust Lannisters again. Tyrion was the one who happened to experience that. Partly his own fault, he could have refused to cooperate with Tywin's plan - it's not like he couldn't have worked out that Sansa wasn't going to be thrilled.

[Wouter]

Let us consider the situation with Arya, Joffrey, Nymeria and Mycah. Why shouldn't she feel bad about what happened? Does she ever think to herself "maybe I should have told the truth about what happened....not only was Lady killed but an innocent person (Mycah) dies, maybe I should have told the truth.." She never even questions it, ever.

While I agree that Sansa should blame herself, and especially Cersei and Joffrey instead of Arya, it's unfair to blame Mycah on her. Joffrey's version would have been believed by Cersei anyway and the Hound was already hunting for Mycah well before the little "trial" could be run by Robert. Joffrey and Cersei wanted Mycah death, and that was pretty much it...

[Jon Targaryen]

Sansa has just seemed to be a pair of eyes through the last three books. A piece more than a player. When she was taking action, it was holding back the truth about Joffrey and Mycah and Arya and betraying Ned. That and acting like a spoiled girl, which she was I suppose. I hope she learns the game of thrones and starts taking a more active role.

[Diva]

I don't want Sansa to have to cry her way through the rest of the series with remorse. that would be more tedious than her current thought processes. But some self awareness and acknowledgement that she has screwed things up majorly would be nice.

Like I said, it would have been a nice touch if she had thought fondly of her father when her engagement to Joffery was broken. It was, afterall, what he had been in the process of doing when she ratted him out to Cersei.

And yes, Ned probably was going to be imprisoned anyway. But Cersei might not have found out in time which boat Sansa and Arya were taking. If he had not had to worry about hostages thinks could have been different. The reason he had to worry about hostages is because Sansa delivered herself as one, in a hissyfit of self righteousness, and gave away the exact date and time of their departure.

Yet never admits it to herself.

[nix]

Yes, Sansa prays for Jon, and even for the commoner soldiers on the Blackwater, in the sept in KL. Moreover, she cares for Lancel when he's wounded even though he's an enemy and he treated her like shit. She cares for Tommen and encourages him, at the tourney and when Myrcella leaves. She is worried about Margaery going to marry Joffrey. In the Eyrie, she cares about Brune and Mya. Seems to me like Sansa is one of the most empathic POV's, contrary to those who state that she never thinks about others.

Yes, Sansa is nice to people. Two questions I have there: what is Sansa's motivation. I am undecided whether it is genuine care about people, or tied in with her politeness and her desire to act like a lady. End result is the same, but motivation would determine whether she is really empathic or whether she is doing it for her self-image at the end of the day.

Secondly, I find it interesting that most of Sansa's kindnesses seem to be with people she knows superficially. Even before all the disasters started happening to her and her family (i.e. before the excuse of being in danger, having her trust betrayed and closing herself off), she does not seem to have had deep bonds with people, like Jon and Arya or Jon and Robb. Yes, there were her friends from the lessons, but she seems to have forgotten about them pretty quickly even before the Cersei/ Joffrey betrayal so those feelings can't have run too deep and she always seemed to place herself above them in station.

She seems to have been able to manipulate "Sweetrobin" just fine, and he doesn't hate her, far from it even.

I wasn't saying that Sansa can't manipulate anyone, my point was that she isn't going to move up to the masters degree of being a player unless she manages not just knowledge about what makes other people tick, but also what makes herself tick and how she can use that. Survival, lemoncakes, nice dresses, and not thinking about her own actions won't be enough.

It is relatively easy to manipulate a sickly child, who is mainly interested in sleeping in her bed, having sweets and getting his own way. Sweetrobin is in the amateurs league.

I would like to add to Diva's point that I am not looking for self recrimination and flagellation, but some awareness and acknowledgement of the effects of her actions. And, also, some learning so Sansa can change from just reacting to people and situations into actively playing people and situations to suit her ends. That isn't going to happen until she knows what her ends are.

[Wouter]

And yes, Ned probably was going to be imprisoned anyway. But Cersei might not have found out in time which boat Sansa and Arya were taking. If he had not had to worry about hostages thinks could have been different. The reason he had to worry about hostages is because Sansa delivered herself as one, in a hissyfit of self righteousness, and gave away the exact date and time of their departure.

Yet never admits it to herself.

She's more or less implied to have done so - at least she vowed never to trust the Lannisters again, admitting implicitly that she screwed up by trusting Cersei. Allthough more is probably to come on this, once (if) she reunites with any of her siblings.

It's true that Sansa is responsible for making Arya, Jeyne and herself hostages. It's just the accusation that she is responsible for Ned's death that I think to be unfair.

Two questions I have there: what is Sansa's motivation. I am undecided whether it is genuine care about people, or tied in with her politeness and her desire to act like a lady.

Well, nobody knows about her praying for the soldiers at the Blackwater and she was genuinely concerned about Margery. Nobody would have expected her, even a proper courteous lady, to care about Lancel. And what about Dontos? She had motivation to keep her mouth shut but still she spoke, same about Tommen. She was more being defiant of Joffrey here rather than being the courteous little lady.

It seems rather clear to me that Sansa does genuinely care about people, even if she may have no really deep ties with others.