Heresy 11

[Black Crow]

Welcome to version 11 of the Heresy thread; so called because it challenges many of the assumptions made in AGoT about the nature of the elemental conflict between Ice and Fire.

In AGoT we were told that the Others, the White Walkers, were cold dead things who hated the living and were intent on destroying all life – an ambition not yet fulfilled. Instead shortly after embarking on Heresy 10 we learned 'The Others are not dead. They are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous. In the TV version, pared down to its bare bones we’ve seen Craster actually give up his sons to the Sidhe, presumably not as a sacrifice but as changelings, confirming what the older women said about the Others/Sidhe being Craster’s sons returned.

Reference to the Sidhe is an important clue, because a hallmark of the Heresy threads is that we not only examine closely what GRRM himself has written, but also probe deeply into the Celtic and Norse folklore which underpins so much of his work, thus informing the theories which have been presented and discussed over the past 10 versions.

Consequently it’s a fairly wide ranging thread but the core remains as the title of the first version; the Wall and its true purpose, the Watch and its origins – and the ultimate heresy that there may be a connection between the Starks and the Sidhe/Others.

And with that I’ll leave a final thought. The last and greatest heresy is prone to provoking cries of horror from supporters of the Starks, yet the connection between Bran and the (deeply creepy) Children is applauded. If the White Walkers are indeed the Sidhe rather than the evil undead Others would a Stark connection be so dreadful, or conversely if there is indeed an undoubted connection (Bran the Night’s King) does this not suggest the Others/Sidhe are not as evil as they’re presented.

[Black Crow]

OK, introductions aside, the current topic of conversation is this intriguing matter of "in the country of the blind the one-eyed man is king".

And so far as those men go, we first have Lord Bryndon Rivers alias Lord Bloodraven. Famously missing an eye but seeing all through the weirwood and (although I have a certain doubt) the three-eyed crow.

Then there's Euron, who like Bran saw the world - and wants it.

And there's Mors Umber, who also lost his eye to a crow and while no visions are reported has replaced it with one of dragonglass.

A slightly sinister pattern seems to be emerging...

[Lummel]

Do we know when and in what circumstances Euron and Bloodraven lost their eyes?

Is this a reminder of the Odin eye sacrifice or does it warn us their vision is partial and incomplete or both? How does Bran with two eyes fit in, I think we kind of expect him to see further and have more power than Bloodraven...or is that just me?

[Black Crow]

Ah, this is where it gets interesting. Bloodraven lost his eye fighting with Bittersteel at the Redgrass Field - which would seem straightforward enough if we didn't know he's sitting in a tree playing at Odin.

Euron on the other hand appears to have two eyes. According to Theon he has one blue eye, but the patch conceals a "black eye shining with malice"... which sounds intriguingly like the black dragonglass one sported by Mors Umber

[Bran Vras]

Black Crow replied ten seconds before me. For Bloodraven, it's the work of his halfbrother Bittersteel. It reminds me of the movie "The vikings", with Kirk Douglas and Tony Curtis, who play thinly disguised references to Odin (Kirk is missing an eye) and Tyr (Tony is missing a hand). They are half-brothers.

[alienarea]

Mazbe it's a three-eyed crow because it has one eye from Bloodraven, one from Euron and one from Mors Umber?

And is the antagonist to the dragon has three heads?

[Bran Vras]

I would believe that to understand properly Bloodraven it's necessary to evoke Bittersteel. Behind their rivalry, there is the ancestral feud between the Brackens and Blackwoods, and their rivalry for the love of miss Seastar.

There is an observation that might be interesting to share. Bittersteel has instituted a strange ritual for the leaders (called captains, and captain-general for the commander) of the Golden Company: their skulls are gilded and piled in the encampment of the sellsword company. All followers of the old gods know that the bones remember, and no one knows that better than Bloodraven. By gilding the skulls, wasn't Bittersteel attempting to deprive his rival of the access to his memories and to those of his companions?

[Lummel]

That's an interesting notion Bran, that gold might be non-conductive to weirnet access! Although it could be like Tze's insight about the Boltons - an attempt to interpret that saying in a literal manner. By using his skull as a company banner he is creating a visual memory aid about the company's purpose and identity.

[Black Crow]

Mazbe it's a three-eyed crow because it has one eye from Bloodraven, one from Euron and one from Mors Umber?

And is the antagonist to the dragon has three heads?

Now there's an interesting thought

[lokisnow]

iirc, Bloodraven had mismatched eyes, right? So did Euron, I think And so does Tyrion, I think.

More insidiously, what if their missing eyes are all self-inflicted wounds?

Tormented by the 3EC in their dreams all their lives, and maybe further tormented by the 3rd eye fluttering open during the dreams or at other times they eventually went mad enough to gouge their own eye out in an attempt to force the third open (or closed).

Alternatively, the only logical (to me) price that the faceless men would ask of Euron to pay would be his eye. He may not even realize he sacrificed more than just an eye if they took his third eye as well. Or he may have laughed all the way to the bank, given them one eye and knew he still had two, his third eye and one real eye. :-p

And just to mix things up further, perhaps Bloodraven plucked out his eye long before the war, and Bittersteel only took the equivalent of Mors Umber's obsidian eye from the socket?

Bran would be the outlier who managed to gain control over his third eye and use it properly.

[Francis Buck]

What if black obsidian eyes are like the glass candles? Perhaps allowing two people to "see" what the other one is seeing?

Just throwing stuff out there. I got nothing to back it up.

[Theo1]

Francis, you take on dragon glass and the glass candles is cool. What better to see with than a glass candle now in a new convienent portable version.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

Beric lost an eye as well.

If I could pick 5 things in ASOIAF to learn more about, glass candles would be one. Very intriguing things.... hopefully Marwyn makes it to Meereen, or Faceless Pate's storyline is continued in TWoW via Samwell.

[Ser Leftwich]

Bran, Umber and BR are all descended from the First Men. And the Iron Islands was settled by the First Men, so Euron likely is as well.

Mayhaps only likely bloodlines will produce greenseers.

This could tie into the incest of Crastor, who likely has the blood of the First Men in him, in that only some of his sons have the right genes/characteristics to be used by the Others/Sidhe.

[Black Crow]

What if black obsidian eyes are like the glass candles? Perhaps allowing two to people "see" what other one is seeing?

Just throwing stuff out there. I got nothing to back it up.

I like this idea, especially as Euron is also known as Euron Crow's Eye and as we know Crows can "see". The problem thus far is that because we (so far) have no back story on the eye, we don't know why.

Although once again I'll confess to not having paid enough attention to him I understand there is a theory that he was abused as a boy, but what if he was given to the crow(s) who took his eye.

[Lummel]

Ah, the theory is the other way round, that Euron abused his younger brother Aeron.

[Black Crow]

Fair enough, I did say I hadn't paid enough attention to him.

Either way we're still left with Mors Umber wearing a dragonglass eye to replace the one taken by the crows and Euron Greyjoy with what sounds like the same, known as Crows Eye and dreaming of flying.

[Snowmelter]

Ok, what about Symon Stareyes (sp?). Also, it's my limitied understanding that there are two sidhe courts, winter and summer. Neither like mortals overmuch and to eat and drink with them is, well, bad,depending on the story. If the Others are the Winter Court, then, are the Dragons the Summer Court? It makes sense to me, but I have a very limited understanding of this mythology.

[Black Crow]

That might well make sense from an Ice versus Fire point of view; especially with the Red lot banging on about bringing about an endless summer.

We've discussed how Mel and Moqorro appear to be the direct equivalent in Fire of the Others/Sidhe - or the other way about if you prefer and how the magic may be essentially similar, separated by the hinge of the Wall.

I'd therefore be inclined to go along with the Others/Sidhe, at least some of whom are human changelings, representing the Winter Court, while Mel and Moqorro - who look as if they too could be changelings - represent the Summer Court - or Ice and Fire respectively.

I don't see the dragons themselves representing the Summer Court, though they could be familiars and that would in turn imply the possibility of actual Ice Dragons as familiars of the Others/Sidhe of the Winter Court.

[Lummel]

The summer and winter court fits in with the general pattern of opposites or parallel groups which seems quite neat.

And yes Symeon Stareyes...that he carried on being an active knight is suggestive.