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Ramsay Gimp

[BOOK SPOILERS] What is Roose's plan?

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At the end, we see Roose suggest to his his King that rather than head North with his army, he should allow Roose's bastard to deal with Theon and retake Winterfell.

In ACOK, it seems to me that Roose didn't decide to betray the Starks until after...

A. Bran and Rickon were killed, and

B. Stannis lost at the Blackwater

It is after these pivotal events that he sends the infantry to Duskendale, but before he gets word of Robb breaking his oath to the Freys, which he must have seen as yet another reason to turn cloak.

But in the show, Bran and Rickon are not considered "dead" yet and Stannis is still very much in the game. "The Lannisters are on the run," as he says himself. So what is he planning by sending Ramsay? Has TV Roose changed allegiance before Book Roose, and wants Ramsay to sack the castle, kill the Princes and blame it on Theon? Or is he being sincere at this point, and not realizing what Ramsay is going to do?

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Quite a lot of people speculate that as soon as Robb lost Winterfell he lost Roose. Robb's hope was sort of with Renly, Stannis and Joff will both kill him, Balon would as well. If Robb shows no intention of seizing the Iron Throne and all the other claimants would delight (or see it as vital) to kill him then it won't be good for the Bolton's when they lose. Roose is aware that the odds aren't on his side, and that's all he needs to know.

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Quite a lot of people speculate that as soon as Robb lost Winterfell he lost Roose. Robb's hope was sort of with Renly, Stannis and Joff will both kill him, Balon would as well. If Robb shows no intention of seizing the Iron Throne and all the other claimants would delight (or see it as vital) to kill him then it won't be good for the Bolton's when they lose. Roose is aware that the odds aren't on his side, and that's all he needs to know.

This.

I always imagined that Roose was the type to want a little more from life and from his family. Much like Tywin, which is why they perhaps made good allies in the end. Roose saw the chance to have the Boltons become the new overlords of the north, to oust the Starks.

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At this point, we don't know if Roose wants Ramsay to take over Winterfell for himself or if Ramsay takes it over on his own accord. In the show, it could be that Ramsay takes his own initiative. I guess we just have to wait and see.

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I think at this point Roose's plan is to take Winterfell to curry favor with his liege lord. When events turn for the worse he does what any good power hungry lord would do.

I can't recall exactly what happens in the books. Does Ramsay raze Winterfell at Roose's request or on his own?

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It's not clear the Roose wants Ramsay in the books. He seems to hedge a little- he wants an heir by his Frey bride and knows Ramsay is a threat to that heir. He seems to recognized Ramsay has his uses, but the clock may be running out. He also knows that Ramsay killed his first true heir who died of what I remember to be a bad belly.

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I am curious as to see how this plays out myself. I hope they don't make Roose into a "villain" before he is known as one, as this could diminish the later aspects of his storyline in my opinion.

As long as the line, "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" is included in the show..I may be willing to let some things slide with this.

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I am curious as to see how this plays out myself. I hope they don't make Roose into a "villain" before he is known as one, as this could diminish the later aspects of his storyline in my opinion.

As long as the line, "Jaime Lannister sends his regards" is included in the show..I may be willing to let some things slide with this.

Agreed on all points. Roose is my favorite "villain" in the book series (he out-Tywins Tywin in my mind) and I like the show's interpretation so far (though he should be wearing some pink). I just hope they get his betrayal right

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Maybe Ramsay has the same drive as Theon;

Take initiative, impress Dad, and screw the consequences.

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Who contacts who? Tywin -> Roose or Roose -> Tywin? The answer would shed a little more light on the betrayal.

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I was under the impression that Roose was sending his bastard to recapture winterfell in good faith. After all, Roose complains about how out of control the kid is, and he also makes a point of stressing it was the ironmen who burned winterfell, not Ramsay. I don't think he planned on Ramsy's killing spree throughout Winterfell. I think he was either acting in good faith, or perhaps just trying to get a Bolton in Winterfell.

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in DwD Roose tells Theon himself that Robb lost the kingdom the night Theon took Winterfell so he was probably planning betrayal as soon as that happened ... he goes on complaining about Ramsay to Robb and the other Northern Lords because he wants to still seem loyal to Robbs cause right up until the Red Wedding

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I don't know if the dreadfort men would follow Ramsay without Roose's say so

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You can't derive anything from his actions so far.

If Roose is currently loyal to Robb then getting Ramsay to recapture Winterfell is the best possible option. He is certainly correct that Robb can not march his army back to Winterfell.

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I don't know if the dreadfort men would follow Ramsay without Roose's say so

Almost certainly not. He's just a bastard and we know the status of bastards in Westeros. All his authority derives from his father.

I'm not sure Roose has set his betrayal in motion just yet. My own view is that he will see his opportunity when Robb breaks his vow to marry a Frey. By that time, Ramsey will be manning Winterfell with Robb's approval so will be in situ to easily take it. Stannis will have been defeated and the tide will look like it has turned irrevocably in the Lannister's favour. At this point Roose will see the chance to improve the position of his house rather than be wiped out in the inevitable defeat of the north. The rift between the Starks and Freys is the key to it all. Any rebellion by the Bolton's before this will leave them isolated, no one will follow them and his house does not have the strength to carry through a rebellion alone.

Ultimately, I think Robb is going to prove to be even more naive than Ned.

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Almost certainly not. He's just a bastard and we know the status of bastards in Westeros. All his authority derives from his father.

I'm not sure Roose has set his betrayal in motion just yet. My own view is that he will see his opportunity when Robb breaks his vow to marry a Frey. By that time, Ramsey will be manning Winterfell with Robb's approval so will be in situ to easily take it. Stannis will have been defeated and the tide will look like it has turned irrevocably in the Lannister's favour. At this point Roose will see the chance to improve the position of his house rather than be wiped out in the inevitable defeat of the north. The rift between the Starks and Freys is the key to it all. Any rebellion by the Bolton's before this will leave them isolated, no one will follow them and his house does not have the strength to carry through a rebellion alone.

Ultimately, I think Robb is going to prove to be even more naive than Ned.

Starks will be Starks...

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Maybe Ramsay has the same drive as Theon;

Take initiative, impress Dad, and screw the consequences.

Might be a little difficult to convey considering he'll (probably) be a glorified extra, but yeah. This could be good.

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Might be a little difficult to convey considering he'll (probably) be a glorified extra, but yeah. This could be good.

I love being understood, especially if I'm wrong.

Thanks!

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Roose in the books is constantly hedging his bets. He speaks to Robb of his bastard as if he didn't care whether he was killed, and he probably didn't. He's just trying to spread his eggs about so that he's in a good position no matter if the tide turns against Robb or stays with him. If Stannis wins and Robb continues to do well in the war Roose will be the man who saved Winterfell and resecured the north for Robb. If things go sour for Robb and he does the dirty, as the possessor of Winterfell (& the North) and as he isn't a Stark he could trade submission for a favourable deal with the Iron throne. It will be later events (Blackwater, Tyrell alleigance) that will seal which way the wind is blowing for him and lead him to get ground level into the conspiracy to gain even beter terms with the Iron Throne.

I think Theon will kill the millers boys before Ramsey arrives and episode 10 we'll see Ramsey attack and retake Winterfell (without seeing his face as he'll be an extra). Then next season Ramseys will start by torturing Theon in Winterfell and his burning of Winterfell will tie in closer timelinewise to his fathers betrayal of Robb at the RW.

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I think roose is constantly looking for a stark weakness to take over the north

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