What's the wider purpose of the Martell family? (aDwD spoilers)

[kwvapor]

WoW spoiler

If Myrcella is dead, then why is she headed back to KL with 302 Dorishmen? The fake can't trick KL, they are the one that originated the fake.

[RhaenysBee]

Yes. That's what you're supposed to think. Just a nice old man, thinking nice thoughts. You're not supposed to see beyond the surface. We're supposed to be shocked when the blow falls.

He's obviously not a nice old man, but not being a nice old man is not the same as being a Gregor Clegane. Plus, only because someone is not a nice old man, he can still think nice thoughts. Tywin Lannister thought nice thoughts, Arya Stark thought nice thoughts. And they aren't innocent fluffy bunnies either. I don't say Doran is what he shows to be. I say that his wider purpose is not the murder of Tommen and Myrcella, because he could have achieved that ages ago if he really wanted.

When Ellara asked if they would go the the level of murdering kids, nobody answered her question.

I'll look this part up.

Because Cersei would not have believed him. He needed Myrcella to blame everything on Darkstar. He needed Balon to write that letter to King's Landing. He needed an excuse to move troops in the direction of the border without provoking suspicion.

Okay, but he has a lowborn girl faking Myrcella, doesn't he? So he could have used a fake with a dead Myrcella too. I don't see the point of keeping Myrcella alive after she almost chance died if he really wanted her dead.

Against whom?

That's the problem. Everybody died off.Probably Cersei and Jaime and Qyburn's Martell creature will die off too by the time Doran gets to his revenge.

[Alia of the knife]

So I'm in the middle of a re-read, currently on A Feast for Crows. I'm trying to convince myself that the series isn't flawed in anyway and has no pointless padding anywhere, and is in fact perfect............cough.........

The most widely cited problems are with A Feast for Crows, and specifically with the newly introduced POV chapters, namely the Iron Island and Martell family chapters. So I'm trying to convince myself that with the benefit of hindsight when the series is all completed, these chapters will be seen to have greater relevance. With the Iron Island chapters, this is easy: we can already see that Victarion's travels are taking him close to Dany and I assume their stories will converge (although I'm really struggling to figure out why we needed several Damphair chapters to start with when the story could surely have been told effectively with a single Victarion arc). With the Martell's, it's less obvious. I actually really like Doran as a character, I think his methodical and reasoned counterpoint to Oberyn works very well. But throughout Feast, as much as I enjoyed the chapters, there wasn't a lot tying them to the main narrative.

I spent most of A Dance with Dragons quite pleased that all the effort I'd put into the Martell chapters of aFfC were paying off: Quentyn's journey toward Dany seemed to provide the relevance we'd be looking for. But then of course, Quentyn had a rather poor attempt at dancing with dragons. So I ask you: what is the wider purpose of the Martell family? What role will they play in future books?

IMHO, I think there is a foreshadowing event in the naming of the Stark Direwolves in relation to what they are in spirit.

Arya naming hers Nymeria says to me that her final destiny may lie in Dorne as either the Lady of Starfall, or even Aegons Queen, (if he's real), because he would need to get back the largest of the Seven Kingdoms before Aegon the Conquerer, which is the North, to unite them.

Sansa is still married to Tyrion, and if it's put aside, most likely Willas Tyrell.

So, I actually think they serve as a plot device for Arya as much for Dany or Aegon.

Right now, the Martells really don't have a lot of reasons to be fond of the Targaryens, if they ever really were despite marrying them sometimes.

Strike one: Rhaegars treatment of Elia.

Strike two: Danys rejection of Quentyn.

And there is also the fact that though Arianne was secretly betrothed to Viserys, Doran never really helped him out- even on the sly.

[KingRichard]

While it is possible that the Martells have already fulfilled their purpose in Oberyn's role in Tyrion's trial and Quentyn's disastrous dragon-taming (which, itself, fulfilled the seeming plot necessity of freeing and splitting up Rhaegal and Viserion), I imagine they have a further role to play. Their determination to support some Targaryen or another seems to demand a greater involvement in the war for the Iron Throne.

While it is possible that the Martells have already fulfilled their purpose in Oberyn's role in Tyrion's trial and Quentyn's disastrous dragon-taming (which, itself, fulfilled the seeming plot necessity of freeing and splitting up Rhaegal and Viserion), I imagine they have a further role to play. Their determination to support some Targaryen or another seems to demand a greater involvement in the war for the Iron Throne.

Doran Martell did make a deal to marry one of his children to a Targaryen, and when that fell through he offfered up his other child. When they here about Aegon and if they believe that he does have a claim Doran should have no problem offering Arrianne to him, once they learn that Quentyn has failed and died.

[RhaenysBee]

Right now, the Martells really don't have a lot of reasons to be fond of the Targaryens, if they ever really were despite marrying them sometimes.

Strike one: Rhaegars treatment of Elia.

Strike two: Danys rejection of Quentyn.

And there is also the fact that though Arianne was secretly betrothed to Viserys, Doran never really helped him out- even on the sly.

Rhaegar never mistreated Elia. Besides if they were angry about Lyanna Doran should be happy that the Targaryens are gone. Instead he plotted to get them back. If he didn't want to marry Arianne to Viserys he wouldn't have to betroth her to him in the first place. Dany's rejection of Quentin is another matter. Hopefully, Doran will understand that it was Quentin's stupidity that got him killed.

[David C. Hunter]

I think when the series is over the Martells will be the 2nd most powerful kingdom in the series

[Alia of the knife]

Rhaegar never mistreated Elia. Besides if they were angry about Lyanna Doran should be happy that the Targaryens are gone. Instead he plotted to get them back. If he didn't want to marry Arianne to Viserys he wouldn't have to betroth her to him in the first place. Dany's rejection of Quentin is another matter. Hopefully, Doran will understand that it was Quentin's stupidity that got him killed.

The Martells were angry over the treatment of Elia which is why they were slow in sending reenforcements, (GOT).

There was another thread a while back that proposed a really interesting theory, and one that really makes sense to me, that the Martells have their own end-game.

With the Martells depending on the Targaryens for their power, which they did, without them, they really are weak, so it behooves them now where there is the chaos to shore up their own strength.

They resisted the first conquest, and fought back and forth until they forged a peace through marriage, but the Martells are still proud, and I doubt they cared for the condescending marriages when there was no sister available- and even then, the Targaryens sometimes sill married into other Houses, rejecting them.

[Alia of the knife]

The thing I'm leary of with the Dornish, is this whole prevailing notion that they were "open."

Their views might have been more relaxed, but I wouldn't assume they had no feelings, and couldn't be hurt.

[Fearsome Fred]

I say that his wider purpose is not the murder of Tommen and Myrcella, because he could have achieved that ages ago if he really wanted.

How? His explicit objection to Arianne's adventure, is that, by bringing harm to Myrcella, she was provoking a war before he was ready.

Okay, but he has a lowborn girl faking Myrcella, doesn't he?

That's the theory - that the girl at the Water Gardens is Rosamund Lannister, Myrcella's double. But this is unconfirmed as yet. Most readers have assumed that the girl at the Water Gardens is the real Myrcella, who has somehow been convinced to lie to Balon.

So he could have used a fake with a dead Myrcella too.

Since I suspect Myrcella is dead, that is exactly what I think he is doing.

I don't see the point of keeping Myrcella alive after she almost chance died if he really wanted her dead.

It keeps his options open. If he is terrified the Iron Throne will find out about Myrcella's death, then it helps if she is not in fact dead.

But that's neither here nor there, since there is no evidence he did anything out of his way to "keep her alive" after he found out she had been maimed and Arys killed.

For all I know, she was already dead by the time he got the news.

Of course, it is also hard to see why he would go out of his way to murder an already dying child.

[etu]

The thing I'm leary of with the Dornish, is this whole prevailing notion that they were "open."

Their views might have been more relaxed, but I wouldn't assume they had no feelings, and couldn't be hurt.

I appear to have missed something. Could you expand?

Incidentally, if Arya's future lies in Dorne, then Trystane appears to be just as plausible a candidate. Such a marriage might also end up reunifying Dorne with the rest of Westeros should they secede again - and it seems quite plausible right now - which fits Nymeria's role as a unifier.

Nymeria's role as a conquerer however... you've given me a thread idea *scurries away*

[Fearsome Fred]

I think when the series is over the Martells will be the 2nd most powerful kingdom in the series

When the series ends, Dorne will be under water, like lost Lyonesse. That the Dornish abandoned the sea, and swore never to return to it, is ironic foreshadowing of their final doom.

[Alia of the knife]

I appear to have missed something. Could you expand?

Incidentally, if Arya's future lies in Dorne, then Trystane appears to be just as plausible a candidate. Such a marriage might also end up reunifying Dorne with the rest of Westeros should they secede again - and it seems quite plausible right now - which fits Nymeria's role as a unifier.

Nymeria's role as a conquerer however... you've given me a thread idea *scurries away*

The prevailing impression the book leaves, (I can't say I blame some for stereo-typing because the book lends itself to that impression), is that the Dornish are so "open" that they would be okay with certain behaviors like sharing their spouses/lovers.

While the Dornish have a relaxed view of sexual behaviors, (ie, open paramours, lovers, acknowledgement of bastards, women in power, etc), I don't think they would like sharing someone they loved, because on the flip side of their nature, I think jealousy and pride is also a factor given their own focus on vendetta.

I tend to think they just are not hypocrites about the nature of political marriages enterered into for duty.

Rather than trying to love your spouse if you don't, perhaps you just come to an amicable agreement, and then if one ,or both takes a lover, you still have to treat the spouse with all due respect when it comes to the casual mistress/lover.

But, what happens if it's genuine love?

That can very much threaten the marriage, thus the power alliance, which is why I'm not prepared to jump onto the bandwagon that Elia was okay with what Rhaegar did with Lyanna, because the Dornish were not happy with Rhaegars treatement of Elia

And did those same freedoms apply to all the Dornish, or just the ruling House?

Were all the Dornish like Oberyn, or was that just him?

Anyway, long clarification on my thought process.

And yes, Trystane could be a good candidate too, but I just get the feeling Arya is going to end up with either Aegon or Edric.

Aegon only because the last thing she would ever want to be is a Princess, or Queen, and these poor characters seldom get the "job" they want, but the "job" they may best be suited for.

A torn Kingdom would not only need a strong King, but a strong Queen as well.

Dorne is also the place where Arya could perhaps more comfortably be herself outside her home in the North.

Okay, now you can scurry, but come back soon with the thread. :)

[etu]

Ah right. Yes. With you now, and agreed on the Dornenish Open Sexuality vs. Bad Tempers thing.

I'll cover the Arya thing when I re-write that topic (board crashed at the wrong moment) but in short, I don't think she'd be a good Queen... nor a good Lady Paramount, but her and Trystane just seems to make sense to me politically. Ned Dayne though would also be a good choice - and yes, Arya would be comfortable there, once she got a tan. Bad tempers? Warrior women? Arya's just a really pale Dornenishwoman!

And nobody was quite like the Red Viper, but I get the feeling he wasn't that far off the trail. But we don't quite know, which is a shame, as after the North, Dorne is my favourite part of Westeros... at least, I think so, I need more info to be sure!

[kwvapor]

Imagine Arya with a poison spear/Needle.

Nymeria is still in the Riverlands and her cat friend(s) are still in the Red Keep. So I'll say her chances of returning to KL is high but who will she return as? Arya? As Tommen the little brother?

I also agree with the idea that Dorne openness on sexuality is a double edge sword. Not all men are good lovers like the Red Viper and can juggle communication and relations with .. how many women? It ain't easy being the Viper.

[DragonSpawn]

Interesting post DragonSpawn.

Deserts are cold places at night ;)

I was hoping Arya would make it to Dorne in time to slice Myrcellas face off and use it to infiltrate King's Landing...

[Great Other]

The main purpose of House Martell is to make Rhaegar king.Anyone exept me noticed terrifying similiarities between Rhaegar Targaryen and Gerold Dayne?And the reason Doran Martell is protecting him so much after he nearly put House Martell to war with the Iron Throne?On my opinion,House Martell is using Fake Aegon through Varys to weaken the Iron Throne and after put Rhaegar on the Throne.

Rhaegar survived from the Trident and now seeks vengeance for those who killed all the Targaryen children(as he thinks Robert knew about Jon and killed him too).He dosen't knows his son is alive,and he has become cruel and merciless now that he thinks his son was butchered and there is no Prince That Was Promised to save the world.

[Groat]

The only purpose the Martell family has is to epicly fail at everything they do. Seriously, every member of the family fails at everything.

[Alia of the knife]

Ah right. Yes. With you now, and agreed on the Dornenish Open Sexuality vs. Bad Tempers thing.

I'll cover the Arya thing when I re-write that topic (board crashed at the wrong moment) but in short, I don't think she'd be a good Queen... nor a good Lady Paramount, but her and Trystane just seems to make sense to me politically. Ned Dayne though would also be a good choice - and yes, Arya would be comfortable there, once she got a tan. Bad tempers? Warrior women? Arya's just a really pale Dornenishwoman!

And nobody was quite like the Red Viper, but I get the feeling he wasn't that far off the trail. But we don't quite know, which is a shame, as after the North, Dorne is my favourite part of Westeros... at least, I think so, I need more info to be sure!

As for warrior women, I don't know if all Dornish women are like that.

I think they tend to be more "Lucretia Borgia," (at least as far as her legend goes), in fighting tactics rather than like the Amazons.

I think there is a foreshadowing in the proximity of the Wildings and the behavior of their women, as well as the Mormonts.

When Martin does his next installment of the Dunk & Egge series, "She Wolves of Winterfell," (one alpha male down, and all those she-wolves vying for power), Northern women may make Dornish women look like the Kardashians. :)

Rickard may have only denied his daugher martial training to appeal more to the standards of "southron" males and their notions of chilvalry, since even the traditions of Knights was not followed in the North.

I have to go to work now, but when I get home, I'll be looking for that thread :leaving:

[Alia of the knife]

The only purpose the Martell family has is to epicly fail at everything they do. Seriously, every member of the family fails at everything.

They do it with gusto though.

[David C. Hunter]

When the series ends, Dorne will be under water, like lost Lyonesse. That the Dornish abandoned the sea, and swore never to return to it, is ironic foreshadowing of their final doom.

Um...wearing is it hinted anywhere in the series that this will happen? You writing the story?