Mothers & Daughters

[The Storm Queen]

I think it's clear both Arya and Sansa have strong family ties and that both of them identify more than might be apparent at first with their mother. It's also notable that Cat as Stoneheart is first and foremost about finding her daughters. Cat released Jaime to have a chance at recovering her daughters, too, so I think Cat,Sansa and Arya have very strong ties and very strong mother - daughter bond, perhaps the strongest one presented in the books.

I actually think Arya is more like Cat than she is like Ned, on an internal level. Cat is a bit sterner than Ned and sharper and as we have seen can remain strong in the face of enormous adversity while also being fiercly protective of her own (Arya definitely shares this trait), while Ned is more thoughtful and compassionate, which are traits that Sansa shares with him.

Totally agree. Catelyn is also a very practical woman who has no qualms to abandon the traditional ladylike lifestyle / way of behaving when the need for it arises. When going to KL she travels like a man and often sleeps in the open. When confronted with the Mountain Clans she does not need a knight to save her but manages to kill one of her attackers herself. People often depict her as a stereotypical mother figure but to me the beauty of her character is that she is so much more. She is a loving mother but also a shrewd politician who has learned to wield power very early in her life.

I also think that it is no accident that - before they die - Ned and Catelyn both are confronted with terrible crimes against their families: Ned decides to forgive, Catelyn choses vengeance*. Sansa goes down the same road as Ned when she shows mercy for Lancel after the Blackwater although he has been cruel to her while Arya is driven by revenge just like her mother...

* If you compare the Starks to the Seven, Ned to me is the Mother (merciful) while Catelyn is the Father (a judge).

[Dragonstar]

Yes I agree there are ties - Arya, Sansa and Cat. The Tyrells and te Martells too seem more matriarchal. Alls I'm saying is that None of the women seem to be driven to be/oppose what their mothers wanted for them, whereas a lot of the male POVs are directly driven by their fathers in one way or another. Tyrion, Theon, Quentyn etc. I think it has to do with George being a guy. I think most guys believe that strong women are all tomboys/daddy's girls - Arya, Brienne, Arianne, Asha to name a few. And I don't blame anyone for thinking that either. Before I had my son, I think I believed that too.

Not trying to be a rabid feminist male hater, just something I notice in the books. Doesn't take away from the brilliance of the series or the depth of the characters

[David Selig]

I'm just going to leave this link here...

Thanks a lot for this link, really interesting stuff :thumbsup:.

Yes I agree there are ties - Arya, Sansa and Cat. The Tyrells and te Martells too seem more matriarchal. Alls I'm saying is that None of the women seem to be driven to be/oppose what their mothers wanted for them, whereas a lot of the male POVs are directly driven by their fathers in one way or another. Tyrion, Theon, Quentyn etc. I think it has to do with George being a guy. I think most guys believe that strong women are all tomboys/daddy's girls - Arya, Brienne, Arianne, Asha to name a few. And I don't blame anyone for thinking that either. Before I had my son, I think I believed that too.

Sansa IMO is as strong as anyone and she's certainly not a tomboy or daddy's girl.

[SirPipeWeed]

As much as I hate to say it, it seems that Cersei is the mother who plays the biggest role in her children's lives. Catelyn with Robb is very important, but she almost has zero contact or influence in any of her other children's lives.

[RhaenysBee]

It's true that father-son relationship have the main focus, because the world is ruled by men. (I'll not add "in that world" or "in older times", because it still is and - please, please, please have mercy on me - I don't see any problem with that fact)

But A Song of Ice and Fire also has some interesting mother-daughter relationships. Some are nice, some are weird, some make you think.

Let's see:

Sansa and Catelyn - Cat is fond of Sansa and Sansa's idol is Cat. They are very similar in appearance and values.

Olenna and Margaery - We don't know much of Margaery's mother, but she's very close with her grandmother, they conspire together and are similarly witty.

Cersei and Myrcella - Cersei is furious when her precious little princess is promised to Dorne. She loves her.

Asha and her mother - Asha is really a tomboy daughter, but she so cares about her old, wounded mother. She tried to get Theon to visit her and visited her herself.

Jeyne and her mother - Now that's intriguing. Lady Sybelle seems to hate the Jeyne Robb relationship and it's even believed she made sure Jeyne would miscarry. But would a mother do that? The question mark is placed there by the Jeyne with mysteriously narrow hips Jaime meets.

Selyse and Shireen - Selyse is a maniac, we all agree on that, but she's also madly protective and considerate of her daughter (DWD)

Ellaria Sand and daughters - so family centered, so lovely, so Martell

(Elia and Rhaenys? - I always guessed that was the sweetest relationship in the world, don't know why)

Other: Mother-son relationships:

Robb and Cat - very close

Gilly and her baby - bittersweet

Lysa and Robert - mad and tragic

And let us not forget Father-daughter relationships either:

Brienne and her father - close and understanding

Arya and Ned - close

Doran and Arianne - strained but healed, just perfect

Asha and Balon - close and full of trust and hope

Oberyn Martell and the Sand Snakes - just love, unconditionally

[BabyMeraxes]

Maternity and its relationship to power is the major theme in the series for me. In a series the focuses heavily on the influence of death, and then Undeath, maternity=life is a huge deal.

Catalyn is a super-mother figure in the series, and any character that has a relationship (Arya, Sansa, Brienne, then, a corrupted Brotherhood after ASoS) with her has a tie to maternity. Also, there seems to be something major going on with Jeyne Westerling and her mother.

Cersei's relationship with her children is maybe the most obvious example in the series, and one of the most interesting. She protests that she loves her kids, and that she puts them before anything else, yet through prophacey, she's destined to fail them.

Also, Daenerys' relationship with her dragons is another example of maternity in the series. They kind of act as surrogates for her true child who she lost. Throughout the series, Dany believes her new children give her the power to take back the home and family that was stolen from her. Cersei and Dany both gain kinds of power through their children, but I think we'll eventually see them lose that power, too.

And then, there's Melisandre, one of my favorite representations of maternity in the series. She's the anti-mother who births death. While Cersei and Dany use their children to gain power, you could almost argue that the power they gain from their children is just gravy, an afterthought after the gift that is their kids. Melisandre, however, gives life exclusively to gain power; that's her child's only purpose, and it's portrayed as a terrible, awful thing.

[Evamitchelle]

Yes I agree there are ties - Arya, Sansa and Cat. The Tyrells and te Martells too seem more matriarchal. Alls I'm saying is that None of the women seem to be driven to be/oppose what their mothers wanted for them, whereas a lot of the male POVs are directly driven by their fathers in one way or another. Tyrion, Theon, Quentyn etc. I think it has to do with George being a guy. I think most guys believe that strong women are all tomboys/daddy's girls - Arya, Brienne, Arianne, Asha to name a few. And I don't blame anyone for thinking that either. Before I had my son, I think I believed that too.

Not trying to be a rabid feminist male hater, just something I notice in the books. Doesn't take away from the brilliance of the series or the depth of the characters

I don't think the Martells are really matriarchal. The current generation has a lot of women with the Sand Snakes and Arianne, but Mellario of Norvos doesn't live in Dorne at all anymore, and none of the Sand Snakes' mothers apart from Ellaria Sand play a role in their daughters' lives (that I recall). Doran and Oberyn were still the one who called the shots, and the Sand Snakes identify far more with their father than they do their mothers.

[Lady Hodor]

@ Lyanna

A very good point. But what I noted there is a cruel difference in Catelyn's affections for her daughters, she seems to favour Sansa.

Its a subtle thing, but there all the same. She worries more about Sansa, and only has good things to say about her in a loving way.

Yet whenever she recalls Arya, its with negative words and disaproving connotations. Ned never thought of Arya that way.

Ned often spoke with her and tried to teach her, and he hired Syrio for her. Would Catelyn have ever understood her enough to do that?

[Evamitchelle]

@ Lyanna

A very good point. But what I noted there is a cruel difference in Catelyn's affections for her daughters, she seems to favour Sansa.

Its a subtle thing, but there all the same. She worries more about Sansa, and only has good things to say about her in a loving way.

Yet whenever she recalls Arya, its with negative words and disaproving connotations. Ned never thought of Arya that way.

Ned often spoke with her and tried to teach her, and he hired Syrio for her. Would Catelyn have ever understood her enough to do that?

I don't think Catelyn loves Sansa more than Arya, she just finds the former easier to deal with because she fits easily into the "Lady" mold that she's eventually supposed to take. Arya is the typical tomboy, who wants to learn sword-fighting and go hunting with her brothers. Since she's only 9, it's possible that Cat still thinks she can make a proper lady out of Arya, which would make her life far easier than being against the norm (just look at how Brienne is treated, and even to a lesser extent Dacey Mormont and Asha Greyjoy). In the end Catelyn is very accepting of the women warriors she meets ("One of his companions was even a woman: Dacey Mormont, Lady Maege’s eldest daughter and heir to Bear Island, a lanky six-footer who had been given a morningstar at an age when most girls were given dolls. Some of the other lords muttered about that, but Catelyn would not listen to their complaints"

and her entire relationship with Brienne

), and if Arya had persisted in showing a desire to fight, I think Cat would have allowed it, even if she'd prefer an easier life for her daughter.

As for Ned, I think it's pretty obvious that Arya's his favourite, since she reminds him so much of Lyanna.

[ARYa_Nym]

I think Cat has the tendency to compare Arya to Sansa but her favorite child was neither. It was Bran IMO. I think Sansa was just easier for her to understand.

“She had never cared if she was pretty…Only her father had ever called her that. Him, and Jon Snow, sometimes. Her mother used to say she could be pretty if she would wash and brush her hair…the way her sister did. To her sister and her sister’s friends and all the rest, she had just been Arya Horseface. ”

Brienne wondered whether Willow might be more than she appeared. The girl was too young and too plain to be Sansa Stark, but she was of the right age to be the younger sister, and even Lady Catelyn had said that Arya lacked her sister’s beauty.

“…my hair’s messy and my nails are dirty and my feet are all hard.” Robb wouldn’t care about that, probably, but her mother would. Lady Catelyn always wanted her to be like Sansa, to sing and dance and sew and mind her courtesies. Just thinking of it made Arya try to comb her hair with her fingers, but it was all tangles and mats, and all she did was tear some out. ”

Another mother figure for Sansa is Septa Mordane. Sansa seems like a cross b/w Ned and Septa Mordane. Arya's nature does compare to Cat's but her personality is like a cross b/w Lyanna and Brandon IMO.

[Lyanna Stark]

@ Lyanna

A very good point. But what I noted there is a cruel difference in Catelyn's affections for her daughters, she seems to favour Sansa.

Its a subtle thing, but there all the same. She worries more about Sansa, and only has good things to say about her in a loving way.

Yet whenever she recalls Arya, its with negative words and disaproving connotations. Ned never thought of Arya that way.

Ned often spoke with her and tried to teach her, and he hired Syrio for her. Would Catelyn have ever understood her enough to do that?

One reason Cat worries more about Sansa is that Cat believes her more gentle than the fierce Arya, too. We see it in when Brienne recalls Cat's description of Sansa. That said, I don't think Cat has any preference. She wants her daughters, plural.

Ned's connection with Arya I always took as Ned remembering Lyanna and how she was and he sees Lyanna in Arya. We know from how much Ned is angsting about Lyanna that he was very fond of her. We still see from Ned's chapter at the Hand's Tourney when he wishes that both the Hound and Jaime Lannister would lose the fight but says nothing because Sansa is captivated that Ned really, really cares for both his daughters and want what's best for them.

Cat's "special kid" was Bran, but she says at least once that she wishes so much she could split herself in five and be wherever her children were.

I also agree with Evamitchelle, that Cat would eventually have relented about allowing Arya to fight. Ned just had an easier time with it because of Lyanna, but both Ned and Cat ultimately want their children safe and happy, above everything else.

As much as I hate to say it, it seems that Cersei is the mother who plays the biggest role in her children's lives. Catelyn with Robb is very important, but she almost has zero contact or influence in any of her other children's lives.

Cat clearly has a large influence on the Stark daughters as evidenced above. Arya in particular thinks a lot about her mother. Just because they don't have a lot of interaction in the story we see doesn't mean Cat can't have a considerable influence.

[birdsong66]

Sansa is very much her mother's daughter I think, but even that hasn't shaped her the way some of the afore mentioned have; while Arya is quite noticeably not her mother's daughter in a lot of ways, but that doesn't bother her.

IMHO, Sansa is deliberately drawn to be very much her Mother's daughter to provide a foil for Arya, and her obvious differences. But, after having the benefit of Catelyn's POV's throughout the novels, I'm more inclined to believe that it is Arya that represents who Catelyn really is if she were to allow herself to disregard all that she is expected to do by virtue and demand of noble duty. I've argued this before, and IMO, it is the "sameness" between the two that frightens Catelyn about Arya, and not the idea that Arya is more "Stark-y."

[Lummel]

...Ned's connection with Arya I always took as Ned remembering Lyanna and how she was and he sees Lyanna in Arya. We know from how much Ned is angsting about Lyanna that he was very fond of her...

Yes. The Ned worries that Arya has the wolf blood in her that Lyanna did. The Ned does not have the wolf blood. It's very much a relationship of opposites in that regard.

[Lyanna Stark]

I'm just going to leave this link here...

Just wanted to say thank you for posting that since the "ManPain" flow chart has given me quite a few good giggles. :)

[ARYa_Nym]

Yes. The Ned worries that Arya has the wolf blood in her that Lyanna did. The Ned does not have the wolf blood. It's very much a relationship of opposites in that regard.

Yes. He told her that Lyanna and Brandon had it and it led them to early grave. Brandon was his charismatic older brother and Ned lived in his shadow. There was some bitterness there when he spoke of him to Cat.

I don't think he was like his siblings at all. He was more dull and rigid and less wild. I suspect he was influenced by high as honor Jon Arryn. I don't think we know enough about his parents to determine which one he was like. All we know is that Rickard was ambitious but nothing beyond that.

[Lummel]

Sober and responsible ARYa_Nym please!

[TheSpottedCat]

Almost all the boys that were grown by their mother seem to have issues

That's not true. All the Stark children (which are without contention central characters of the series) have had a strong loving relationship with their mother (except Jon, who hasn't known his) and frequently miss her, refer to her etc. And Catelyn seems a great example of a mother, until the king visits and all hell breaks loose.

-Samwell is adorable, but he's considered less "manly" than his companions, is physically inept at fighting and is considered a coward.

Again, not true. Sam has had a loving relationship with his mother (and he often misses her), but an abusive father. No one except for his father has the opinion that having his close relationship with his mother made him soft and less manly, as you say. I doubt that cowardice and ineptness at fighting can be attributed to having a healthy, loving relationship with his mother. You've got it wrong. It's probably the other way round. Because he preferred reading to fighting and was quiet and shy, he was closer to his mother, rather than his father, with whom he had nothing in common. And many boys are close to their mothers or grow up exclusively with their mothers and don't end up being "less manly".

Agreed, and Asha seems to genuinely appreciate and worry about her mother, too.

I'm thinking Ellaria Sand has a pretty good relationship with her daughters and she seems very protective of them, too, from what we can tell from the Dornish POVs. Without going into Cersei crazy land overprotective, just realistic.

Yes, and there are other examples. Lady Mellario leaves Doran Martell because her heart is broken when he sends away her children to foster homes.

I suspect that Arya will get another woman mentor before she leaves Braavos. I'm hoping for The Black Pearl.

Oh no! That gave me the unpleasant thought of a storyline where Arya trains to become a courtesan under the guidance of the Black Pearl. And that's just what we needi in this series: Arya ending up as a sex worker!

[ARYa_Nym]

Sober and responsible ARYa_Nym please!

LOL! :P

Oh no! That gave me the unpleasant thought of a storyline where Arya trains to become a courtesan under the guidance of the Black Pearl. And that's just what we needi in this series: Arya ending up as a sex worker!

I think it's possible because it's been brought up in her chapters quite a few times but I'm not sure if it will still happen/go anywhere without the 5 year gap. The Black Pearl was nice to Arya though when she interacted with her. Her next mission needs a pretty face but IDk who Izembaro is. It might not have anything to do with courtesans.

[Ice Turtle]

Oh no! That gave me the unpleasant thought of a storyline where Arya trains to become a courtesan under the guidance of the Black Pearl. And that's just what we needi in this series: Arya ending up as a sex worker!

I don't think she will ever become a courtesan, but very soon sexuality will start to play a part in her life if she wants it or not and she herself would want to know more. If she won't be Cat of Canals at that moment, she couldn't go to talk with Brusco's daughters or whores in Happy Port. Black Pearl met Cat only once and Arya being Arya would seek the person who knows the most about the stuff. No sexual education from septa for the she-wolf.

[Artemis]

LOL! :P

I think it's possible because it's been brought up in her chapters quite a few times but I'm not sure if it will still happen/go anywhere without the 5 year gap. The Black Pearl was nice to Arya though when she interacted with her. Her next mission needs a pretty face but IDk who Izembaro is. It might not have anything to do with courtesans.

:eek: Really? I recall the Kindly Old Man giving her options in the beginning before starting her training and being a courtesan was one of them. Were there others? I haven't done a re-read in a while.