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[TWOW Spoiler] Night's King - A Turn From Fire to Ice: The Story of Stannis Baratheon


Babeldygob

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Yes, that seems to the major problem with the secret Corpse Queen idea.

Not necesarilly, but my theory doesn't really need that part to be true, it's just an interesting parallel in description. The Corpse Queen could've had a 'change of heart' after she realised what she had done or something.

You'd think the Whitewalkers choosing a whitewalker to be their champion would make the most sense.

What do you know about the Others that we don't that you would make such a statement?

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If Melisandre actually is in league with the Others or is the Corpse Queen in disguise then she may have set up Stannis to be the Night's King who masquerades as the warrior of fire: Azor Ahai reborn. The PoV chapter from Melisandre in ADwD appears to go against this, but it might be possible. It is not necessary that Melisandre be the Corpse Queen though for the Night's King theories.

What Melisandre does is to mislead Stannis and everyone around him. Everything she has done has been counter to the real AA's purpose and recognition. She may believe that she is doing good, but she is doing terrible damage to countering the impending invasion of the Others. She is not wholly evil at this point in time, and she may never be wholly evil. What she does do is not above board, though.
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What Melisandre does is to mislead Stannis and everyone around him. Everything she has done has been counter to the real AA's purpose and recognition. She may believe that she is doing good, but she is doing terrible damage to countering the impending invasion of the Others. She is not wholly evil at this point in time, and she may never be wholly evil. What she does do is not above board, though.

Well she has brought knowledge of the Others and their war so far and by helping Stannis get the Seven Kingdoms she would be able to use the vast resources of the realm to combat the Others. But yes she is getting the finer points twisted.

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Well she has brought knowledge of the Others and their war so far and by helping Stannis get the Seven Kingdoms she would be able to use the vast resources of the realm to combat the Others. But yes she is getting the finer points twisted.

She is causing great harm by misrepresenting Stannis as AA. She is causing great harm by opposing anyone that would gather a force away from Stannis. (We haven't seen her think this, it is her actions.) She is being deceitful in many ways, including with Mance's execution. She lies to herself, as well, so that we can read her POV chapters without knowing how evil she really is.
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Anyone else think that Stannis might potentially make a new Iron Throne in the Nightfort? Stannis will not give up his claim to rule Westeros, but perhaps instead set up his court within the Nightfort as he intends.

In ASoS, Axell Florent said that, "Stannis Baratheon will sit the Iron Throne. I have seen it."

Apparently, Axell Florent saw something in a fire that indicated that Stannis would indeed reside upon an Iron Throne. Some posters doubt Axell Florent's veracity and others say that the vision he had in ACoK (about a great king watching dancers) was actually what caused him to say this. However, it is not clear that Axell's statement about Stannis sitting the throne is actually based on the ACoK vision and there could have been two separate visions.

But, what if Axell Florent saw a vision, of Stannis on a throne that looked much like the Iron Throne of King's Landing, but this throne was actually a new one forged in the Nightfort? This would fit with the legend of the Night's King and with Stannis's stated desire to make the Nightfort his seat during the war (which is also strong evidence pointing to Stannis becoming a new Night's King).

Of course, Florent may just be talking about the throne at King's Landing. However, in many instances in this book series even those who see the future are still suprised. We will have to see.

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Anyone else think that Stannis might potentially make a new Iron Throne in the Nightfort? Stannis will not give up his claim to rule Westeros, but perhaps instead set up his court within the Nightfort as he intends.

I think that Stannis will indeed win the Iron Throne before Daenerys arrives in Westeros. He will have his position, and Daenerys will reveal him as a fake AA (slayer of lies prophesy). This is probably when he is sitting the throne and is besieged by fAegon, who will also be exposed by Daenerys (slayer of lies). Stannis will retreat, in disgrace to the Night's Fort, which was given to him by Jon, and become the new Night's King, enthralled with Melisandre. The story will be fun to read. ;)

So, we have a great stone beast breathing shadow fire that needs to be deciphered. Someone mentioned that a stone dragon is one who does not know that he is a dragon. Jon does not know that he is a Targaryen, will Daenerys expose the lie of his birthright?

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So, we have a great stone beast breathing shadow fire that needs to be deciphered. Someone mentioned that a stone dragon is one who does not know that he is a dragon. Jon does not know that he is a Targaryen, will Daenerys expose the lie of his birthright?

One possibility is that this lie refers to someone, perhaps Euron, who will make the stone dragon on Dragonstone active (the one that Melisandre claimed could be "awakened" in ASoS). Under this scenario Euron defeats the Redwyne fleet, but learns that Victorian has succeeded in changing the master of the dragon binding horn. Thus Euron seeks out a new plan. The warlocks then explain about how to activate or "awaken" the stone dragon. This results in a stone beast, which serves the will of Euron, emerging from a tower. This creature is presented as a dragon awakened from stone.

Under this scenario the lies would then be:

The claim that Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn

The claim that Aegon of House Blackfyre is a Targaryen (possibly even claimed by some to be the Prince that was Promised)

Euron Greyjoy would claim to have awakened a dragon from stone (this creature would not really be a dragon though)

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Under this scenario the lies would then be:

The claim that Stannis is Azor Ahai reborn

The claim that Aegon of House Blackfyre is a Targaryen (possibly even claimed by some to be the Prince that was Promised)

I think that fAegon is really Ashara's son of rape by Aerys at Herrenhal, but same difference. Lemore will confess to Daenerys.

Euron Greyjoy would claim to have awakened a dragon from stone (this creature would not really be a dragon though)

This does suggest that Daenerys is really showing the lies behind claims of being AA. So, we would then have Stannis' claim, fAegon's claim as a son of Rhaegar, and Euron's claim since he raised the stone beast.
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If personally think it's very likely that during Winter, when the North is probably gonna say 'Ok, Stannis, we'll help you, but after Winter' Stannis is probably gonna make his seat in the Nightfort and install his court there, make it defensable, pull up some walls,... Jon isn't there anymore to advise him in this and the NW will probably be broken down so badly that he either assumes control himself, by installing a puppet or just plain making himself LC or they won't be able to stop him because he has more men. Also, if Rickon is crowned King in the North or just plain Lord of Winterfell we have a reunited North. This means the NW will not want to go against the wishes of Winterfell. If Stannis is responsible for this reunited North than Stannis' wishes = Winterfell's wishes to some degree.

I mean, just by being logical:

Stannis tries to go from Deepwood Motte to Winterfell. We saw how that went and it wasn't even officially Winter yet. How do you assume he marches on the Iron Throne? With what men? It's Winter, even sailing there will make it so dangerous. Why would he have a better chance at the Blackwater than before? He has less men, he has less ships, he has practically no food, so sieging seems out of the question. King's Landing still has Wildfire, do you believe he will risk such a thing even if the North is going to march (which seems highly doubtful at the very least)? Does he have any hope against Aegon if it's about rallying other lords around him? Aegon is closer to the Iron Throne, has momentum, more and better trained men, a lot of hope for even more support (Dorne/Tarly/The Vale/The Darrys/Hightower) and a man on the inside (Varys). Jon Connington will not wait until he has all the support he can get, he doesn't need too. If he has Storm's End and has Dorne, he doesn't need anything else. At the first signs of victory, the Vale will come over to his side without a doubt.

Stannis has almost zero chance of winning the Iron Throne. That's why he will make a new throne. He'll just say 'Fuck it, this is my throne, anyone who doesn't recognize me is going to get punished and probably killed.' He'll just start ruling over the lands slosly, taking every castle one by one. His first target? Probably the Crossing. That way they'll have to come to him to root him out, instead of the other way around. And It hink during winter, the Southron lords may have a hard time coping with this strategy.

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Yes, that scenario is very plausible and seems to fit quite well with the available information. The Iron Bank and the Faceless Men could provide assistance to Stannis by slowly picking off enemies while he is nearly unassailable within the Nightfort and directs his own operations. This might involve dispatching Others (possibly clandestinely) to attack garrison sites.

I agree that Aegon seems to be in the best position to take King's Landing from the Lannisters/Tyrells (or the maybe just the Tyrells) during The Winds of Winter. Also, agree that Aegon will probably gain large scale support through the realm if Mace Tyrell is defeated by the Golden Company. Randyll Tarly seems likely to be one the major defectors from the Tyrells to Aegon. He may potentially be given the position of Lord Paramount of the Reach by Aegon (possibly after Mace Tyrell is killed in battle against Aegon and Connington). Also, the High Septon will likely pronounce in Aegon's favor. Stannis will be appalled that much of the realm is flocking to a new "usurper" rather than supporting him.

One issue though: Would the Hightowers defect from the Tyrells with Alerie Hightower being the mother of Willas, Garlan, Margaery, and Loras?

If Euron both defeats the Redwyne fleet and raids Oldtown then the Redwynes (who may support the Tyrells because of Olenna) and the Hightowers would be substantially weakened. Willas might seek out an alliance through marriage in the hopes of offsetting the problems.

I agree with your theory that Daenary's dream about a new battle of the Trident could be pointing to Stannis marching against her with a force of White Walkers. The "usurper" could easily be Stannis Baratheon for several reasons and the parallels to the Robert-Rhaegar battle are numerous. This appears to fit very well with the Nighfort theory since Stannis would decide to march from the Nightfort to confront Daenarys with an army of White Walkers and they would meet at the Trident.

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I'm with the Stannis as Night's King theory.

At the very least he's undergoing some very serious changes.

Strangely, Stannis smiled. "Angry foes do not concern me. Anger makes men stupid, and Hosteen Frey was stupid to begin with, if half of what I have heard of him is true. Let him come."

Stannis smiling. The world will end

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The Hightowers have always been staunch Targaryen supporters, that one's a wildcard to be honest. About the Iron Bank. Stannis definitely has the support of the Iron Bank. But Justin Massey might just betray him, he doesn't feel to good about the whole quest, or he just might die in Braavos or anywhere for that matter, at least prolonged Stannis acquiring new blades, if he finds any. I mean, even sellsword companies are going to think twice about going to a snow and winter infested land that has barely any food. Food > Money imo.

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I have been wondering if the sellswords Massey is supposed to hire might end up forming part of an army for Gendry or Edric. Maybe Stannis telling Massey to place Shireen on the throne, should he die, is setting the stage for the sellswords and Iron Bank to support his heir (but not actually Shireen if she is killed before Stannis can return to the Wall).

At Braavos, Massey may have trouble convincing sellswords to go to the Wall and then goes to search for sellswords and companies outside Braavos. Eventually he hears news indicating that either Edric or Gendry has been declared a new Baratheon king or about a plan to make one of the two king (because Stannis has perished fighting Daenarys). The Baratheon king would have probably inherited the Iron Bank contract from Stannis. Then Massey presents a new plan to sellswords and mercenaries and starts to gain some recruits.

Maybe Edric Storm turned Baratheon will come back to Westeros with a group of sellswords and mercenaries and proceed to gather combatants in Westeros to fight for himself or for Gendry to challenge Daenarys and possibly other foes. After the victory of Daenarys against the Others and her rivals then Braavos and the Citadel would prepare to kill the surviving dragons. Samwell could perhaps help with training dragonslayers. This coalition might have other members also (possibly Tyrion if he turned from Daenarys over Jaime's fate).

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Really like this theory... lots of hints, subtle clues and forshadowing that suggest it could happen. I def agree that Stannis will defeat the Boltons, then the news of Aegon in the South and the Rickon being brought back to the North may drive him mad enough to in fact, side with the Others and become their leader.

With regard to sacrificing to the Others, we know that Craster had sons to give them, Stannis has no sons, but should he be driven to the point, I can see him sacrificing whatever army he has to the Others; pretty much adding to the number of Wights that already exist thus cementing his status as one of them and becoming their leader. (Someone mentioned a potential scene with him and his "fire sword" commanding them to kneel and they do; I think this would be badass) Though I think this is where our boy Jon Snow comes into the picture. I think that Jon is AA and when he comes to, he in fact will have the power to command or destroy the Others via the real "Lightbringer."

I do have one problem though and I only read through page 3 of the thread so I am not sure if this has been addressed; Stannis' Hand, Lord Davos Seaworth.

Davos has been instrumental in tempering Stannis throughout and giving him truth and logic about things that he needs to do. Should Stannis be on the brink of madness, couldn't Davos talk him out possibly leading the Others? Or perhaps Stannis will see him as a traitor for bringing back Rickon and thus rallying the North behind a Stark and him? Perhaps if this is the case, Stannis' execution of Davos is the final act that pushes him over the edge?

Just my thoughts, really interesting theory, awesome thread, cheers!

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Really like your idea about executing Davos. Davos might die. But I think his turn to Ice won;t be so straightforward as to just declare for the Others. It might be that he blames Davos if Rickon becomes King in the North and he might very well break upon that point, Davos being his loyal man and all. But Davos also fears Stannis enough that he might just go along with it, we've seen him do this multiple times, like the burning of the seven. He onyl stopped to save Edric, but doing so again might not be well received by Stannis this time.

Davos did go behind Stannis' back with the whole Rickon Stark thingy.

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I seriously doubt that Stannis will ever come close to the Iron Throne, because of the vision in the house of the undying where she sees, A blue-eyed king who casts no shadow raises a red sword in his hand.

Contrast this with the Jon chapter where he sees Tyrion's shadow and notes that at the time he stood taller than a king. In my opinion this foreshadowed Tyrion becoming the hand of the king.

So for Stannis to have no shadow might foreshadow that he will never attain any real power.

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  • 2 weeks later...

About the possibility of Melisandre taking a turn towards ice:

What would happen if Melisandre were to die and the White Walkers actually tried to turn her in a wight? Maybe should could become a new ice woman or "corpse queen." Not sure if this is possible or not, but it would resolve the lack of a "Night's Queen" rather easily. There might be other means to produce the transformation. If she used a glamour after becoming the Night's Queen then she could simply pretend to be the old Melisandre to Stannis when he arrives back to the Wall and only reveal her identity to him later, after making him more receptive to the plans of the Others through certain means.

It sounds like Melisandre is set to become Stannis's queen in some way because that would parallel the Night's King legend more closely than most of the alternatives (although it is not strictly necessary). Selyse could very easily be killed and then Melisandre is positioned to become Stannis's queen.

Along this vein:

If Melisandre becomes a new "corpse queen" then perhaps she will come to voluntarily convert to the cause of the Others. If she is able to see their viewpoints and learns about a looming mortal danger posed by the power of fire in the world then she might come to the conclusion that Azor Ahai reborn and his/her allies are actually an incredible threat to life, both human and Other. The Others may be substantially different from what Melisandre envisions and thus encountering them might potentially weaken her attachment to her old view's about ice and fire.

The Others may not necessarily care about the fate of humanity, but if an "ice Mesliandre" became critical to their plans then perhaps she would work to redirect their goals by at least a small measure, perhaps she would-for whatever reasons-adopt the cause of ice as her own, or she may simply come to oppose fire.

The Others may hold a great fear that humanity will unleash the power of fire to destory them and destory the Lands of Always Winter, Westeros, or the world itself. The Doom of Valyria might be a foretaste of what shall come should the cause of fire triumph completely. The dragons also could become destroyers of life with nigh unsatiable appetites. Fire and Blood.. Azor Ahai also is said to herald or bring "the summer that never ends." The Others would obviously fear that and perhaps humanity too would regret such a thing, should it ever come. Melisandre may add whatever knowledge the Others hold regarding the dangers of fire to her own knowledge of fire's cause, thereby producing someone who can-along with the Night's King-lead the war against Azor Ahai reborn.

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  • 2 months later...

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