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[TWOW Spoiler] Night's King - A Turn From Fire to Ice: The Story of Stannis Baratheon


Babeldygob

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@Lord Varys

It's a mythical story that comes up more than once. If we learned one thing it's that none of Old Nan's stories are insignificant and bear a lot of truth. If the Long Night comes again, if Bran the Builder comes again, if Azor Ahai comes again, why wouldn't the Night's King come again? I think his story is too unclear and too much in shades to just be that, a story. Maybe if The Nightfort wasn't back in use and there wasn't some kind of weird passageway there that Bran used, you could be right. But The Nightfort bears too much significance with all the stories around it to just be a broken down castle with the only passageway other than the gates through the Wall.

The problem I have with this and most of the prophecies is that they rely on a tired trope. Is the Song of Ice and Fire really just a re-living of a bunch of other important events in the history of Westeros? If we add it all up we will have the Night's King come again, Azor Ahai come again, Bran the Builder come again, the Last Hero come again...

So where is the original story in that? It would be a pretty cheap story if at the end of ASOIF all it added up to was George re-telling these famous tales with a new cast of characters. And if all these things come around again then it diminishes their importance in the first place and therefore degrades the depth of the world and history that GRRM has created.

Maybe I'm deluded or misguided in wanting ASOIF to be an original tale with new characters who will take their own place in the history of that world rather than just the second Bran the Builder or whatever.

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There certainly will be a connection between the past and the present/future. We have to get the whole back story about the Long Night/Last Hero/War for the Dawn to understand 1. what's the motivation of the Others to do what they are doing, 2. to resolve this conflict once and for all.

I'm quite sure the Azor Ahai and the Lost Hero myth are somewhat connected. They refer to the same person who 8,000 years united humanity against the Others.

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The thing about Stannis is that while initially he was made to appear a stuck-up fool like Ned, he does not lack in resourcefulness, and he can keep fighting long after anyone else would have given in. Of all people, I never expected HIM to make it that far. So I think he's in Westeros and the war to stay.

I also think it has been made pretty clear he doesn't buy all the Red God stuff, or any god. He just sees that Melisandre's magic can be put to good use.

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The problem I have with this and most of the prophecies is that they rely on a tired trope. Is the Song of Ice and Fire really just a re-living of a bunch of other important events in the history of Westeros? If we add it all up we will have the Night's King come again, Azor Ahai come again, Bran the Builder come again, the Last Hero come again...

So where is the original story in that? It would be a pretty cheap story if at the end of ASOIF all it added up to was George re-telling these famous tales with a new cast of characters. And if all these things come around again then it diminishes their importance in the first place and therefore degrades the depth of the world and history that GRRM has created.

Maybe I'm deluded or misguided in wanting ASOIF to be an original tale with new characters who will take their own place in the history of that world rather than just the second Bran the Builder or whatever.

I understand where you're coming from. I have no doubt that there will be 'firsts' in the story of ASOIAF, though. But what is also interesting is that there are all these stories and we would see how all these people and heroes actually came into play. I also have no doubt that most of these supposed 'heroes' are a lot more layered than they appear in the stories and may have entirely different motivations than we're made to believe. That's the interesting part imo.

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So he won't march south if he defeats the Boltons. If Stannis survives the battle, he has any chance of dying heroically at the Wall fighting the Others. There is a chance for some kind of estrangement between him and Mel (say, he chooses the Old Gods at that heart tree on the island, and she somehow ends up reviving Jon Snow and both of them fall for the rumor that Stannis is dead).

I hadn’t thought of that. Stannis is a practical man. He recognizes that Mel has actual power, and that this is useful to him. If with his own eyes he sees proof that the old gods also have power, it may impact his thinking — and ultimately, his actions.

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I'm wondering if Lord too-fat-to-sit-a-horse is really going to join his forces with Stannis...

What if Davos returned Rickon to Lord Lard and the North united behind the last known Stark - King in the North with Manderly as Hand/regent - leaving Stannis out from their schemes?

With a Stark around, the North doesn't really need a king who isn't a Northener, expecially when winter is coming and he has only 2.000 men.

Stannis would be very very (did I say very?) pissed off and would have another reason to join the Others.

EDIT: grammar

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If this theory were true it would necessitate that Melisandre abandon Stannis in favor of Jon, which there has been some indication that that may be the case. Melisandre has been seeing visions of Jon Snow as Azor Ahai, not of Stannis and this fact has been troubling her.

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I'm wondering if Lord too-fat-to-sit-a-horse is really going to join his forces with Stannis...

What if Davos returned Rickon to Lord Lard and the North united behind the last known Stark - King in the North with Manderly as Hand/regent - leaving Stannis out from their schemes?

With a Stark around, the North doesn't really need a king who isn't a Northener, expecially when winter is coming and he has only 2.000 men.

Stannis would be very very (did I say very?) pissed off and would have another reason to join the Others.

EDIT: grammar

Indeed. Melisandre has said that when Robb and Balon were both dead that other kings would rise in their stead, that she has seen it the flames. For now Robb isn't followed by anyone, so it must mean that Melisandre either misread the signs or that Manderly will crown Rickon King in the North despite Stannis.

When Stannis is talking to Davos about burning Edric Storm he says that he has looked in the flames. He says he saw a king with a crown of fire(much like Stannis his crown) being consumed by it. This would mean that if that King is Stannis that his Kingship will consume him whole or at least what he represents. This fits my theory.

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I do agree.

It's such a twist to the story that I can't but imagine it in GRRM's head :cool4:

Moreover - given that Stannis is one of my favourite character - I'd like him to become a true cocky villain... I'm picturing a wonderful scene where he forces the Others to kneel before him :devil:

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I can't believe so many of you are buying this theory. it's beyond absurd.

there's nothing indicative of Stannis' character that he'd be so desperate to side with The Others. As far as the connection to blue eyes/others in Dany's prophecy...Stannis already HAS blue eyes. All the Barotheons do. Quoting stuff from CoK and using it as foreshadowing is a stretch too. the book is 12 years old, I'm sure GRRM hadn't even fleshed out most of his story at that point, and i'm not even sure he has now. So to microanalyze every quote going that far back seems a bit ridiculous.

Stannis isn't an idiot. He can't believe that a pact with The Others would end well. His character progression as a leader has developed way too much (think stannis from CoK to now) to regress like that in a blink of an eye. He's already winning favor in the North. If he kills the Boltons AND the Freys, he'll have quite a bit of support. Also, who knows what happens with the sellswords and bank of Bravos.

I love this series a great deal, but when i read stuff like this and so many people jumping aboard i can't help but think that some fans are so entrenched in the series that they have tunnel vision and forget that it's a book and not everything will logically connect or have been mapped out from the beginning. There are many things that are fluid in this series. I could understand creation of theories for stuff like the pink letter (which GRRM has obviously already decided to do with it, otherwise he wouldnt have introduced it) but predictions like these have no basis and a reach.

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Out of all the candidates on the "human" side to command the others, who else could it be but Stannis? Danny, Jon, Griff, whomever there isn't another believable character that could pull this off.

Considering however that the Others will eventually fight Danny and the Dragons, I much more like the "Blue eyed king who casts no shadow" seemingly undead Stannis. That really takes it to the next level. Right now him being turned into an undead seems far fetched, but when the Others do cross the wall it's not like he will be alone in that fate. They could defeat him and his troops completely, re animate all of them, and then incorporate them into the larger horde with him in command.

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Wights are inferior to The Others. There's no reason to believe they are anything more than drones, so if they reanimated somebody, why would they make it their leader? The wights haven't shown any type of congitive ability. They move slow and aren't very good fighters.

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The wights haven't shown any type of congitive ability. They move slow and aren't very good fighters.

The wights are the Other's servants but they aren't stupid or slow: remember that Othor knew where to find Mormont and that he was a hell of a quick enemy for Jon.

Regarding your first post... we are just assuming something basing our ideas on hints and prophecies/legends that might confirm the theory. Do you have any evidence that there are hints, prophecies, legends that discredit our theory?

Cheers!

PS. Oh, and I believe that Lord Tycho Nestoris will die at the Wall during the fights between NW/Queen's Men/Wildlings and, if he ever managed to come back to Braavos.... Arya will kill him for some - still unknown - reason.

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Tycho has no ships to return to Braavos on. Jon comandeered them for the Hard Home expedition.

MtnLion - Nice sig, but you're forgetting "She's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know."

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The wights are the Other's servants but they aren't stupid or slow: remember that Othor knew where to find Mormont and that he was a hell of a quick enemy for Jon.

Regarding your first post... we are just assuming something basing our ideas on hints and prophecies/legends that might confirm the theory. Do you have any evidence that there are hints, prophecies, legends that discredit our theory?

Cheers!

PS. Oh, and I believe that Lord Tycho Nestoris will die at the Wall during the fights between NW/Queen's Men/Wildlings and, if he ever managed to come back to Braavos.... Arya will kill him for some - still unknown - reason.

"The Wights had been slow, clumsy things but the Other was light as snow on the wind". From Sam's chapter where he kills The Other.

So.... you're incorrect. Also, i reread that Jon chapter just to confirm and no where does it say it is "fast" or attacks him with quickness or anything relevant. Wights are slow, and not very smart. Knowing where someone is doesn't make it intelligent, and certainly not smart enough to lead an army. Hence a large hole in that theory.

as far as counterpoints and what i believe to be logical fallacies, i pointed out several of them already.

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If the TWoW-Theon chapter is setting anything up, it's either Stannis's death (in the coming battle, or at Bran's hands/the weirwood's branches) or him choosing the old gods (i.e. Bran and Bloodraven).

Bran might also try to save Theon's life (or he might want to kill him), but Stannis is the man Bran/Bloodraven have to recruit to their cause. He is the only king in Westeros who actually cares about the threat of the Others. With whom should they work if not him?

Of course, they try to get to Jon as well, and they will most likely be essential for Jon's resurrection/healing, but they can't possibly intend to push Stannis aside.

If Bran is actually able to talk/act through the weirwood on the island, virtually everything will be possible. First and foremost an alliance between Stannis Baratheon and Brandon Stark of Winterfell. Bran/Bloodraven might intervene on Stannis's side during the battle (walking trees, animal attacks), and most importantly, Bran will be a source of information not only about the Others and the coming war, but about the architecture of Winterfell and possibly existing secret passages into the castle.

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If the TWoW-Theon chapter is setting anything up, it's either Stannis's death (in the coming battle, or at Bran's hands/the weirwood's branches) or him choosing the old gods (i.e. Bran and Bloodraven).

Bran might also try to save Theon's life (or he might want to kill him), but Stannis is the man Bran/Bloodraven have to recruit to their cause. He is the only king in Westeros who actually cares about the threat of the Others. With whom should they work if not him?

Of course, they try to get to Jon as well, and they will most likely be essential for Jon's resurrection/healing, but they can't possibly intend to push Stannis aside.

If Bran is actually able to talk/act through the weirwood on the island, virtually everything will be possible. First and foremost an alliance between Stannis Baratheon and Brandon Stark of Winterfell. Bran/Bloodraven might intervene on Stannis's side during the battle (walking trees, animal attacks), and most importantly, Bran will be a source of information not only about the Others and the coming war, but about the architecture of Winterfell and possibly existing secret passages into the castle.

interesting post..haven't thought of that possible outcome before.

I'm in the minority about this...but if this Night's King character is supposed to be reborn..I'd rather it be Jon than Stannis.

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MtnLion - Nice sig, but you're forgetting "She's been fucking Lancel and Osmund Kettleblack and Moon Boy for all I know."

Wasn't it both Kettleblacks? but I think i get the gist of it in there, now.

On Topic, I really see Stannis turning to the Dark Side, as he is easily swayed torwards power. The Old Gods would seem to have very little to offer. Melisandre has misled herself about the Old Gods, too, and I can see her in opposition. It sure makes sense to me.

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When Stannis is talking to Davos about burning Edric Storm he says that he has looked in the flames. He says he saw a king with a crown of fire(much like Stannis his crown) being consumed by it. This would mean that if that King is Stannis that his Kingship will consume him whole or at least what he represents. This fits my theory.

I do not think it was said about Stannis. The vision of a king consumed by fire of his own crown fits Viserys better.

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