[TWOW Spoiler] Night's King - A Turn From Fire to Ice: The Story of Stannis Baratheon

[CrypticWeirwood]

Just a technicality, niether joffrey, nor tommen, nor myrcella is technically in any line of succession besides casterly rock, in a legal sense. Roberts Crown legally passed to Stannis

Bastards aren’t supposed to inherit anything. Lancel is the heir to Casterly Rock, not Tommen.

[Jolene Brown]

Lancel isn't the heir, either, now that he's joined the Warrior's Sons, right? I think Martyn is the heir.

[Neo]

“There is no creature on earth half so terrifying as a truly just man." - Varys

I'm just starting my Stannis reread, basically I'm reading every chapter that involves Stannis physically.

I want to present a theory that has probably been discussed a few times, but with the Theon chapter I want to go deeper into it.

Stannis started out his journey to the Iron Throne in Dragonstone, the former seat of House Targaryen, much on that island is about Fire and Dragons. He had Melisandre as a Thrall of Fire basically, not really buying into the whole Lord of Light thing, rather using it as a tool for his campaign. He recognizes that Melisandre has (fire)power and uses it for his own goals several times.

Later on, he goes North to help the Wall against the wildlings and establishes his seat in the Nightfort, which is the former seat of the Night's King, a lot of things here have to do with Ice and Coldness. Whereas Dragonstone was a beautiful island with a beautiful carved out castle, he now has a broken down castle, with nothing much going for it except its history.

Dragonstone(Fire) ---> The Nightfort(Ice)

Stannis has a pretty hard time on his campaign. The first thing he does is killing his brother, using Dark Forces powered by Fire. He recognizes the power of fire a lot and uses it to see his future through Melisandre.

After that he loses the battle of the Blackwater because of Wildfire and flees. He returns to Dragonstone and because of this defeat he almost turns to the bad side by planning to burn Edric Storm for power. Davos prevents him from doing that and informs Stannis of the real threat.

Here we see how Stannis, driven by hopelessness, does not refrain from doing bad things for the greater good. We see how for him the end justifies the means if other options run out.

He then goes North to fight the real problem, but Stannis is only convinced because he sees it as a tool to make the realm follow him in order to get the Iron Throne. Despite his victory, Jon Snow is unwilling to let him have the wildlings and become a Stark to help him.

Despite this effort Stannis makes to help the realm, the realm still doesn't recognize him as a true king. This is something he very much despises. He gets more and more driven by his hate for the realm and everyone in it who doesn't recognize him.

When Stannis departs from the Nightfort to get back Deepwood Motte, he basically starts his transition from Fire to Ice. He uses the forces of fire less and less now that Melisandre isn't with him and starts hating on the snows. He recognizes that the cold and the North are powerful things and he has a hard time overcoming them.

Again despite his effort freeing Deepwood Motte from Asha Greyjoy, no Northern Lords except for Alysane openly declare for him. They still don't want to bend the knee even though he's proven again and again that he can handle the realm and that he'd be a good King.

In the Theon chapter, we see Asha making the request of offering Theon to the Old Gods at the Hearttree. As we see in Bran's adventures, offering blood to the Hearttree seems to have been a big thing in the olden days. We also see that Stannis has a plan to use his environment(Ice) to somehow trap his enemies in the battle.

In this chapter we also see that even though Stannis is doing what's good for the North, he learns of an attempt of a Northern Lord trying to turn his cloak. Again he is rewarded with treason and hate for his efforts.

Power of R'hlorr(Fire) ---> Power of the Old Gods(Ice)

Now here's the theory I have:

Stannis will offer Theon to the Hearttree. Something will happen that convinces Stannis of the power of Ice and he will start using that rather than Fire to help him on his campaign. He wins the battle and solves the North's problem with the Boltons.

Now what happens next? If he establishes the North and brings back peace, what will they do? Will they follow him to the South to take back what is rightfully his, now that Winter has come? I think not, I think they will tell Stannis to wait until the Winter is out. They will let him have the Nightfort and let him be to do whatever he wants, because he saved the North basically. They will swear they're his, but they won't do anything for him. There is even a big chance Manderly will crown Rickon King in The North once he gets his hands on him. Another treason. Justin Massey's resolve seems weak and he might even betray Stannis. We saw with Dareon what Braavos might do to you. The gold of the Iron Bank will do Stannis no good if he can't find any sellsword company anymore.

Basically, Stannis is again fucked and has too few forces to do anything. He will sit at the Nightfort and think of ways to help him get The Iron Throne and punish those who defied him and keep defying him. He will try to help out against the Others if they finally show up and he will see their power(Ice).

Now something clicked when I read the chapter where Stannis meets his brother. Stannis' sense of justice dictates that anyone who doesn't bend the knee will be destroyed.

And Stannis will do exactly that. He will bring justice down upon the realm. At some point he will be so bitter, he will break before he bends. Whether this means he should actually die or just be overturned by the events that come to pass, I don't know. After what happened at the Wall he might not have the patience for another choosing, if there even is one. I could see him making himself Lord Commander, as well as King. He might somehow make a pact with the Others, convinced of their power. It might be that all The Others need to start their rampage on humanity is a leader. He will LEAD them down upon the realm, destroying ANYONE who denies him, unwilling to bend the knee. He will be the Night's King come again and lead the attack from The Others upon a treasonous realm. He will bring JUSTICE to those who deserve it. He will use the power of ICE to destroy those who defied him. The treason has gone on for too long and it is time for true justice. He would have finally found the army he needs and has always wanted, devoted to him, without question, without doubt, carrying out his every order, unyielding like he himself is.

Things from the books that support this theory:

There's possible foreshadowing of this in the fact that Shireen has greyscale and the Wildlings are all like WTF THIS KID CARRIES A CURSE. It might be foreshadowing in how Stannis might father other children to an 'Ice woman' that will be 'terrible abominations' like Old Nan says it.

Referring to a dream that Dany had in Storm of Swords:

This sequence is full of parallels between the war Robert fought and the war Dany is about to fight.

Rhaegar[Dany] on his horse[her dragon] fights Robert[stannis] Baratheon and their army of rebels[Others] at the Trident.

Remember that the Usurper doesn't necessarilly indicate Robert. If Dany returns to Westeros, she will see Stannis and his army as The Usurper.

In the House of the undying Dany sees:

This obviously refers to Stannis. I think it is interesting though that the only things that distinguish him are the Red Sword(made by Melisandre), the Blue Eyes(parallel with the Others) and no shadow(Light is needed for shadow). In the darkness, in the night, Night's King Stannis would have a red sword, blue eyes and no shadow.

Not completely in line with my theory but there are several parallels between Melisandre and the Ice Queen of the Night's King another member has already remarked upon;

Appearance:

Melisandre - "Her eyes were red, but her skin was smooth and white ... pale as cream."

Night's King Queen - "...skin as white as the Moon and eye like blue stars."

Skin temperature:

Melisandre - "Jon could feel her heat, even through his wool and boiled leather..."

Night's King Queen - "...her skin was cold as ice..."

Soul Draining Coitus:

Melisandre - "...the king's fires burn so low i dare not draw off any more to make another son."

Night's King Queen - "...when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul..."

Sacrificing:

Melisandre - "Give me the boy for R'hllor."

Night's King Queen - "...he had been sacrificing to the Others..."

The only difference I notice is the flip between Hot/Cold - Red/Blue - Fire/Ice. Both want to sacrifice people. Both drain the soul from people when they have sex. Stannis might reunite with Melisandre when he goes back to The Wall or he might not, but the parallels are striking and maybe Melisandre takes a turn to the Ice too, who knows? Maybe Melisandre and the Night's King Queen are ONE AND THE SAME. People have already remarked upon how she seems to be using a glamour for herself and how she doesn't need food nor sleep.

This is when Davos talks to Stannis about burning Edric Storm and what his kingship might cost him. It seems to me foreshadowing to a point where Stannis might actually get burned and may rise again as something darker, something broken. You could discuss that this is about Viserys, but the crown Viserys got, was much different from a crown of flames, which is very resemblant to Stannis' crown. It might foreshadow how Fire is going to consume Stannis. He would then rise again as Ice.

In Sam's chapter where Aemon dies on the ship, he has one of his last conversations with Sam about Azor Ahai/PtwP and he says:

We also learn from Bran's adventures that there's a gate through The Wall at the Nightfort.

This makes it more difficult for my theory if Stannis plans to use it, but he could become Lord Commander instead of Jon. He has said before that he would appoint one if it took too long. Will he have patience for the voting? Especially now that Black Brothers have killed Jon he might think it's necessary that he takes over before they all become corrupt and treasonous. Maybe he will use the Night's Watch for his own purposes, this would align with the Night's King theory. By doing this, the Night's Watch falls or at least a key point to their existence. The fact they can't take part in squabbles between Houses. Stannis has already tried to convince Jon to fight for him. If he becomes LC, what would stop him from doing just that?

It would be quite ironical to see the Night's Watch align with the Others. The Wall would stand strong no more and Stannis could use the gate. This is all far out there, but knowing GRRM...

So, what do you think? There may be more hints to this than I spelled out here. I feel the Night's King HAS TO come again. There are so much dark stories about it and now that Stannis sits at the Nightfort I don't think anyone else is going to own that castle.

I know it might not come to pass, but this is one of the best and most well-thought out theories on this board. Kudos.

[7V3N]

I imagine she would find a way to force him into a bonfire, at sword point if need be.

Mel and the Red God are revered by many of Stannis' southern knights. If Stannis looses the Battle of Ice, his army would limp back to the wall, highly demoralised. Mel could turn Stannis's knights against him (especially if she removes the glamour from Lightbringer), and employ her own men, depending on the aftermath of Jon's assassination.

This makes me wonder if Mel built Stannis up only to gain the loyalty of his followers. If she were able to make a case that the Lord of Light has removed his light from Stannis, the men may turn on Stannis and follow her instead.

[King Doug]

Just a technicality, niether joffrey, nor tommen, nor myrcella is technically in any line of succession besides casterly rock, in a legal sense. Roberts Crown legally passed to Stannis

As readers, yes, we know that Joff/Tommen/Myrcella are not the legal heirs. But everyone in Westeros believes them to be.

Even if Westeros did know about them being bastard born, in regards to Casterly Rock, they wouldn't be in the line of succession due to being bastard born. Kevan Lannister and his sons would come before bastards. Not to mention born of incest, so I doubt they would be given anything. Probably forced into exile

[7V3N]

As readers, yes, we know that Joff/Tommen/Myrcella are not the legal heirs. But everyone in Westeros believes them to be.

Even if Westeros did know about them being bastard born, in regards to Casterly Rock, they wouldn't be in the line of succession due to being bastard born. Kevan Lannister and his sons would come before bastards. Not to mention born of incest, so I doubt they would be given anything. Probably forced into exile

Stannis sent letters to all of Westeros and preachers in KL talk of it. It became a well known rumor, but it was up to the people to decide if they believed it. Many did as an excuse, many saw the logic and truth, many saw a rumor by an enemy, lords against the crown/Lannisters used it to gather their men for a "just cause". Either way, it was the talk of the continent.

[King Doug]

Stannis sent letters to all of Westeros and preachers in KL talk of it. It became a well known rumor, but it was up to the people to decide if they believed it. Many did as an excuse, many saw the logic and truth, many saw a rumor by an enemy, lords against the crown/Lannisters used it to gather their men for a "just cause". Either way, it was the talk of the continent.

Well yes, it was a highly circulated rumor. But the lack of evidence is what made people think Stannis was just mudslinging and making himself have the better claim.

Other than a select few characters (off the top of my head Cat, Kevan Lannister, Tyrion, Tywin probably knew, Ned Stark, Jon Arryn) the readers are the only ones the know for sure that it is true. Unfortunately, the characters that do know are dead/undead.

[Jolene Brown]

I don't think Tywin knew. I don't think he would let himself know.

Ilyn Payne knows. So does Brienne.

[7V3N]

Well yes, it was a highly circulated rumor. But the lack of evidence is what made people think Stannis was just mudslinging and making himself have the better claim.

Other than a select few characters (off the top of my head Cat, Kevan Lannister, Tyrion, Tywin probably knew, Ned Stark, Jon Arryn) the readers are the only ones the know for sure that it is true. Unfortunately, the characters that do know are dead/undead.

Robb made it public to his men, as did Stannis. They sure as hell believed it (because they wanted to justify their cause, make the enemy more "evil", etc., doesn't matter). I am sure Renly used it to better his claim. It was no secret. The realm knew the possibility existed and the fact that the commonfolks were not doing well under Joffrey only helped create a "truth" to it.

[NichealBluth]

I love this theory, you put it together amazingly. I'm pretty sure it won't happen. Not because it's not in his character but because that's not where I feel it's progessing. It's too bad because I've always wanted to see a character get horribly corrupted. Only with Stannis he's always been this way. Just and cold.

I can see Stannis thinking punishment by Cold is what the realm deserves, especially after his failed attempts to help and when cruelty seems at an all time high in the realm. But are the Others what justice has in place for the realm? It's hard to justify leaving Craster in peace... And Stannis is all about human laws, I doubt the Others have a code like that. Although I suppose he could go mad and abandon his laws and just get revenge on everyone.

I love the irony behind Melisandre raising the Great Other instead of AA. And despite her similarities to the Night Queen, I think she would ultimately realise Stannis as false (maybe the flames were warning her of him?) and discover Jon Snow is AA reborn. Then we could have an epic battle featuring lightbringer, Dany, Jon, Dragons and The Others. Can anyone ask for a better battle than that?

[The Sunset King]

Robb made it public to his men, as did Stannis. They sure as hell believed it (because they wanted to justify their cause, make the enemy more "evil", etc., doesn't matter). I am sure Renly used it to better his claim. It was no secret. The realm knew the possibility existed and the fact that the commonfolks were not doing well under Joffrey only helped create a "truth" to it.

Robb's openess to the likelihood that the letter told the truth was probably similar to that of a large portion of the North's population. One reason is that it provided what appeared to be a powerful explanation was to why Jon Arryn died and about why Eddard Stark was executed (the complete lack of evidence pertaining to LF's involvement would make it seem even more like the Lannisters were essentially the sole party responsible for the deaths of both eminent characters).

Good point also about the fact that one of the preachers in King's Landing during ACOK openly sermonized about the incest and argued that a usurper (Joffrey) was in possession of the Iron Throne.

It is difficult to tell how much of Westeros believed the letter, however it did have some impact, at least among those that had other motives also encouraging opposition to the Lannisters.

Aegon's team may believe and foster the incest thesis once they become aware of it. Varys now has every motive to encourage and spread the belief.

[7V3N]

Robb's openess to the likelihood that the letter told the truth was probably similar to that of a large portion of the North's population. One reason is that it provided what appeared to be a powerful explanation was to why Jon Arryn died and about why Eddard Stark was executed (the complete lack of evidence pertaining to LF's involvement would make it seem even more like the Lannisters were essentially the sole party responsible for the deaths of both eminent characters).

Good point also about the fact that one of the preachers in King's Landing during ACOK openly sermonized about the incest and argued that a usurper (Joffrey) was in possession of the Iron Throne.

It is difficult to tell how much of Westeros believed the letter, however it did have some impact, at least among those that had other motives also encouraging opposition to the Lannisters.

Aegon's team may believe and foster the incest thesis once they become aware of it. Varys now has every motive to encourage and spread the belief.

Exactly. True or false, people will believe what they want to believe to keep themselves happy. Thank you for at least considering my points. :cheers:

[Darth Rivers]

Stannis could wander off after he gets shunned and betrayed in favor of Jon. When the Others show up, they'll bend the knee or be destroyed.

[Dunkin' Eggs]

I've been a Stannis supporter as soon as he was introduced, but I can easily see a situation where geroge is going to use the character concept of how he has never been loved to be his downfall. For example, he might be successful in defeating the Boltons in the upcoming battle, but again is spurned by the north after the war which totally makes him lose it. His humor is the best and I consider him probably the smartest person in the books besides maybe tyrion. He's not book smart like tyrion but he is easily a better tactician and like tyrion he is always thinking logically and practically which is to his credit when you consider the universe he lives in; where magic could understandably be mistaken as a proof that gods exist or that they give a damn one way or the other that any of these characters survive. Besides any Stark, this is the guy I am rooting for, but honestly no matter what happens to this guy I think it will be an amazing and satisfying end to his arc.

[King Doug]

Robb made it public to his men, as did Stannis. They sure as hell believed it (because they wanted to justify their cause, make the enemy more "evil", etc., doesn't matter). I am sure Renly used it to better his claim. It was no secret. The realm knew the possibility existed and the fact that the commonfolks were not doing well under Joffrey only helped create a "truth" to it.

No argument here.

[moe.]

i didnt think he was at the nightfort yet. maybe the queen went there but stannis hasnt even seen it yet, no?

[aryagonnakill]

i didnt think he was at the nightfort yet. maybe the queen went there but stannis hasnt even seen it yet, no?

The friendly LC Snow getting stabbed at Castle Black may incline the queen to head to the Nightfort, especially if it appears the wildlings will be in control.

[moe.]

yeah but that doesnt mean stannis is going there.

i cant really see stannis just getting to the point where he wants to destroy everyone and is going to side with zombies made of cold because they have "power". that sounds like a cercei-ish move. She lusts power. either way immm not on board with this one.

Nice work going into the detail for it tho

[7V3N]

yeah but that doesnt mean stannis is going there.

i cant really see stannis just getting to the point where he wants to destroy everyone and is going to side with zombies made of cold because they have "power". that sounds like a cercei-ish move. She lusts power. either way immm not on board with this one.

Nice work going into the detail for it tho

WOAH! You just interpreted the story of the Night's King to a crazy level. All we really know is he gave his seed to an Other and took the Night's Watch as his personal army, set up in the Nightfort, then was put down by the Stark in Winterfell and Joramun beyond the Wall.

In Heresy, we speculate that the Night's King was the Stark Lord and the Nightfort was the house of the Starks, until his younger brother, housed at Winterfell (which could have been the Starks "Summerhall") sided with the Andals and ended the siding with the Others by taking out his brother.

[moe.]

well i dunno. seems like the wights and others are in cahoots in some way. and the op was saying that stannis is going to flip and destroy everyone that objects him, followed by a direct quote from renly stating that everyone in the realm objects him. so really seems like stannis is giong to side with the others and cold powers and destroy the realm. also the interpretation of danys dream that stannis is going to be leading the army of cold at the trident. so maybe I am taking nights king to a whole new level, but not taking the OP too far really.