THE BASTARD'S LETTER

[stu1987]

Yeah that's true, but I'm not sure who would write it for him.The only friends he has at Winterfell are the Spearwives.

Tough one, I suppose there are arguments suggesting it could be one of several characters. Whoever it was must have went to a dark place to write it though. Unless it is actually Ramsay, dude is unstable. Would be a nice twist if it is Thorne, he definitely has it in him.

[redriver]

Personally,I think Mance is literate.He was brought to the Watch as a boy and raised there.

I think it very unlikely that he would not have been taught his letters,especially with the likes of Maester Aemon about.Teaching is one of their duties.

And of course,it would have practical applications for the Watch,as a steward for example.

The closest the text comes to addressing this issue is when Jon asks Mance,when they first meet,if Mance had received news of him by raven.

"We do not use trained ravens" is the reply.I think that refers to Wildling illiteracy in general,not his own.

[bemused]

I'm not really going to have time to post much till after Christmas , but was just doing a brief post In TWOW (in response to the question of why Alysanne is with Stannis) sort of thinking as I went.. This was it ;

"I think the Northern Lords were already planning to try to remove the Boltons on their own by an attack from within WF, and reinstate a Stark ( Rickon, or possibly Jon..or Jon as regent for Rickon ). When Stannis annouced his plan and asked for help..they had to make adjustments.

Both Alysanne's adult sisters are with their mother , presumably at GWW, Alysanne may have been with her as well ( or on her way between )when Stannis' letter arrived, hence his answer from young Lyanna... Her answer may have been one of the deciding factors in Alysanne's " unlooked for " assistance. Assurance to Stannis that Bear Island is not his enemy.

I don't think the North will "turn" on Stannis either, and will agree to help him how and when they can. But they have to look after their own as well. They have to try to shore up their holdings for the winter. They've lost a lot of manpower to the Boltons, Freys and Lannisters.

OTOH, they won't want Stannis to gain sole custody of WF..he might install a southern lord , or someone equally unsuitable, if he does . Yet they can't make Rickon.e.g. common knowledge,yet..Or if Jon has been designated Robb's heir, they can't just let the cat out of the bag , with the Boltons in control and without informing Jon ... and presenting whatever offer to the NW, Robb decided on. He was thinking of a hundred men. ( If Ramsay didn't write the letter... this may have a lot to do with all the urging Jon to come to WF )

They want autonomy for the North , but I think they'd take it if it came with the title Warden of the North, instead of King ( What about Prince of Winterfell ? ;) ..um, ...the prince that was promised..) "

Which would open the door to some of the "lesser" candidates for author again, such as Manderly , or if you think , as I do, there's a good chance Benjen may be the HM , then Benjen . Jon refused Stannis' offer , much as he wanted it , when he thought it was just for himself ..But if he thought it was for the common good and Robb's wish , and it wouldn't take him out of the struggle against the others ...who knows ? ( And if it's Benjen , he'd make a very good stand-in for Jon , and probably in agreement with Jon's plans for the wall. )

No time to really wrestle with it , and maybe it's been picked to pieces by others already. I just thought I'd throw it out there for something to chew on over the Hols.

[MtnLion]

Interesting line, bemused. I still think that the Hooded Man bodes ill for all of the northern plots. It just isn't like GRRM to let the good guys win without any opposition to overcome. I do see Robb's will being release from the Night's Watch for Jon. I do not see Jon accepting Stannis' demands to burn the god's wood or any weirwoods at all. I see Jon and Stannis reversing their roles, where Jon offers Stannis help at a price.

[redriver]

I'm not really going to have time to post much till after Christmas , but was just doing a brief post In TWOW (in response to the question of why Alysanne is with Stannis) sort of thinking as I went.. This was it ;

"I think the Northern Lords were already planning to try to remove the Boltons on their own by an attack from within WF, and reinstate a Stark ( Rickon, or possibly Jon..or Jon as regent for Rickon ). When Stannis annouced his plan and asked for help..they had to make adjustments.

Both Alysanne's adult sisters are with their mother , presumably at GWW, Alysanne may have been with her as well ( or on her way between )when Stannis' letter arrived, hence his answer from young Lyanna... Her answer may have been one of the deciding factors in Alysanne's " unlooked for " assistance. Assurance to Stannis that Bear Island is not his enemy.

I don't think the North will "turn" on Stannis either, and will agree to help him how and when they can. But they have to look after their own as well. They have to try to shore up their holdings for the winter. They've lost a lot of manpower to the Boltons, Freys and Lannisters.

OTOH, they won't want Stannis to gain sole custody of WF..he might install a southern lord , or someone equally unsuitable, if he does . Yet they can't make Rickon.e.g. common knowledge,yet..Or if Jon has been designated Robb's heir, they can't just let the cat out of the bag , with the Boltons in control and without informing Jon ... and presenting whatever offer to the NW, Robb decided on. He was thinking of a hundred men. ( If Ramsay didn't write the letter... this may have a lot to do with all the urging Jon to come to WF )

They want autonomy for the North , but I think they'd take it if it came with the title Warden of the North, instead of King ( What about Prince of Winterfell ? ;) ..um, ...the prince that was promised..) "

Which would open the door to some of the "lesser" candidates for author again, such as Manderly , or if you think , as I do, there's a good chance Benjen may be the HM , then Benjen . Jon refused Stannis' offer , much as he wanted it , when he thought it was just for himself ..But if he thought it was for the common good and Robb's wish , and it wouldn't take him out of the struggle against the others ...who knows ? ( And if it's Benjen , he'd make a very good stand-in for Jon , and probably in agreement with Jon's plans for the wall. )

No time to really wrestle with it , and maybe it's been picked to pieces by others already. I just thought I'd throw it out there for something to chew on over the Hols.

I agree that the northern lords won't turn on Stannis.That would be rude and ungrateful.They just want someone suitable in Winterfell,ideally a Stark.They'd be happy enough to see Stannis on the Iron Throne as long as the North is left to govern itself.

In the continued absence of any viable Starks,perhaps..

Mance Rayder might be offered the post,in return for services rendered,and perhaps the loss of a limb for previous "crimes".Plus he'd have to kneel????.Crackpot,I know,it only entered my head as I typed it.But does he not have a history of promoting unlikely types??

Anyway,Happy Hols bemused..

Interesting line, bemused. I still think that the Hooded Man bodes ill for all of the northern plots. It just isn't like GRRM to let the good guys win without any opposition to overcome. I do see Robb's will being release from the Night's Watch for Jon. I do not see Jon accepting Stannis' demands to burn the god's wood or any weirwoods at all. I see Jon and Stannis reversing their roles, where Jon offers Stannis help at a price.

So you think the HM is a Bolton catspaw?I'm intrigued.Who might it be?

Yes,things won't be easy.They never are in Martin world.

Anyway,Happy Hols MtnLion...

ETA Before the thread gets closed,I'm currently going with Mance wrote the PL in collaboration with Stannis.

[MtnLion]

So you think the HM is a Bolton catspaw?I'm intrigued.Who might it be?

Yes,things won't be easy.They never are in Martin world.

Anyway,Happy Hols MtnLion...

ETA Before the thread gets closed,I'm currently going with Mance wrote the PL in collaboration with Stannis.

Happy Holidays to you and everyone who crosses this thread.

To me it makes sense that it would be Alliser Thorne that is the Hooded Man. That would open the probability that Alliser either forged the Pink Letter, or edited it in collaboration with Ramsay. When Jon receives the letter it leads to a predictable chain of events, and the dead-enders who are allied with Alliser know their role. But, my thoughts are all about how I could make the story of the Hooded Man and the Pink Letter work against Jon and the "good" northmen.

[redriver]

Happy Holidays to you and everyone who crosses this thread.

To me it makes sense that it would be Alliser Thorne that is the Hooded Man. That would open the probability that Alliser either forged the Pink Letter, or edited it in collaboration with Ramsay. When Jon receives the letter it leads to a predictable chain of events, and the dead-enders who are allied with Alliser know their role. But, my thoughts are all about how I could make the story of the Hooded Man and the Pink Letter work against Jon and the "good" northmen.

If I didn't know better I'd suspect you of being a Bolton supporter.(That means something different this side of the pond,but it's equally heinous).

I can accept Thorne as part of the deadenders,but not the PL.No evidence that the letter was tampered with(beyond the seal,maybe).

[bemused]

Happy Holidays to everyone from me too ( Christmas, solstice ..whatever ) I'll raise a nog or two to you !

[pestor]

Personally,I think Mance is literate.He was brought to the Watch as a boy and raised there.

I think it very unlikely that he would not have been taught his letters,especially with the likes of Maester Aemon about.Teaching is one of their duties.

And of course,it would have practical applications for the Watch,as a steward for example.

The closest the text comes to addressing this issue is when Jon asks Mance,when they first meet,if Mance had received news of him by raven.

"We do not use trained ravens" is the reply.I think that refers to Wildling illiteracy in general,not his own.

IMO the Wildlings wouldn't have to use trained ravens like the Maesters. Beings as they have wargs among them. Now I am not saying they use ravens as the FM and CoTF did with having the raven speak the message. But you can assume the wildlings wargs can get a message where ever they need to wheather it be in the middle of no where or a castle. And get their message sent.

[MtnLion]

If I didn't know better I'd suspect you of being a Bolton supporter.(That means something different this side of the pond,but it's equally heinous).

I can accept Thorne as part of the deadenders,but not the PL.No evidence that the letter was tampered with(beyond the seal,maybe).

I thnik the seal is a good indicator that the letter was tampered with. Jon notes the "smear" of the sealing wax, so it is important to him.

Nope, I dislike Roose, and have a special ending in mind for Ramsay. I just don't think that their plot is going to be stagnant during this period.

[STANN1SBARATHEON]

mance is hanging in a cage wearing women's sewn-together skins, freezing his ass off and wishing he had been burned at the wall

[redriver]

mance is hanging in a cage wearing women's sewn-together skins, freezing his ass off and wishing he had been burned at the wall

That's that one sorted then.

Stannis is dead too,it says it in the letter.

[STANN1SBARATHEON]

That's that one sorted then.

Stannis is dead too,it says it in the letter.

lol we know Stannis isn't dead just yet because of that sample chapter in TWOW, but we do know he's stuck on that frozen lake close to death. But if i had to put my money on it, i'd say that yeah Mance is definitely in that cage. care to wager on it?