Ghiscari & the Slaver Cities

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

I'm a little confused by the term Ghiscari and all the slaver cities that Dany is fighting against.

Yunkai, Astapor, and Meeren. The people that inhabit those cities are all descended or related through blood somehow to the OLD Ghiscari Empire correct?

However since the old Empire died they have all separated into independent cities. Along with New Ghis (which is another city that has Ghiscari people)?

I guess I'm just confused when the book says "Yunkish" and then says the Ghiscari legions from New Ghis. But really the "Yunkish" are descended from the Ghiscari....

[Stannis Iron Baratheon]

Yunkish is just specifying the people from that city. They are decended from ghis culture but to specify they are called yunkish. The forces from new ghis are called ghiscari because that is the name of the city as yukai is the name of the city were the yunkish legions are from.

[The Last Direwolf]

I've always been confused between the term 'Yunkish' and 'Yunkai'i'... Which one is the proper name for the people of Yunkai?

[jlk7e]

I think "Yunkish" is an adjective and "Yunkai'i" is a noun. As far as the Ghiscari, New Ghis seems to have a tighter connection to the old Ghiscari Empire than the slaver cities do.

[Werthead]

My take was that the Old Ghiscari Empire consisted of all the lands east of Slaver's Bay, from the Skahazadahan south to the sea and east as far as the Red Waste (depending on the timeline, it may have extended across the Red Waste, as we know that it was habitable at one point with cities located within it). Given that Old Ghis predated the Dothraki, it may have extended north into the Dothraki sea as well (the source of the ruined cities GRRM has said lie inside the Dothraki sea?), and possibly upriver to Lhazar. All of this was then conquered by the Valyrians, with the capital (at Old Ghis) destroyed by dragonfire. So this entire region is culturally Ghiscari.

However, after the Doom the slaver cities became independent city-states. They take pride in their Ghiscari culture and heritage, but they are politically independent cities. There is a resurgent 'New Ghiscari Empire' which seems to be based in New Ghis and spread over the offshore islands and the mainland south of Astapor, but this has not yet absorbed the slaver cities. One of the worries from the ADWD situation might be that Yunkai and Astapor accepting New Ghis's aid in conquering Meereen could be a bad idea in the long run (as it may allow New Ghis to extend its influence over the independent cities).

[Ser Lepus]

I think the people of Tolos and Elyria have ghiscarian roots too: Hizdahr zo Loraq, who has the oldest and most noble blood in all Slaver´s Bay, has relatives at both cities, which means that tolosians and elyrians are either ghiscarians or intermarry a lot with the ghiscarian nobility.

[Werthead]

I think the people of Tolos and Elyria have ghiscarian roots too: Hizdahr zo Loraq, who has the oldest and most noble blood in all Slaver´s Bay, has relatives at both cities, which means that tolosians and elyrians are either ghiscarians or intermarry a lot with the ghiscarian nobility.

Based on their names and locations, I had them both pegged as Valyrian cities. Of course, in the intevening 400 years there's probably been a lot of cross-pollination.

[Ser Lepus]

Based on their names and locations, I had them both pegged as Valyrian cities. Of course, in the intevening 400 years there's probably been a lot of cross-pollination.

The Ghiscarian Empire was conquered by the valyrians thousand of years before the Doom, so they could have been mixing for a lot more than 400 years.

The people from the slaver cities themselves are "mongrels" who speak a corrupted valyrian, according to Dany, so, if the people from the three slaver cities are ghiscarians with a lot of valyrian blood, and the tolosians and elyrians are valyrians with a lot of ghiscari blood, they would be very similar...

[mor2]

My take was that the Old Ghiscari Empire consisted of all the lands east of Slaver's Bay, from the Skahazadahan south to the sea and east as far as the Red Waste (depending on the timeline, it may have extended across the Red Waste, as we know that it was habitable at one point with cities located within it). Given that Old Ghis predated the Dothraki, it may have extended north into the Dothraki sea as well (the source of the ruined cities GRRM has said lie inside the Dothraki sea?), and possibly upriver to Lhazar. All of this was then conquered by the Valyrians, with the capital (at Old Ghis) destroyed by dragonfire. So this entire region is culturally Ghiscari.

My problem with that theory is why would the Ghiscari expand east? everywhere around but east, there are good places for agriculture and east is where the red waste is which cannot sustain large population, the only reason for cities like Quarth is martime trade and if they had it extend across they bay from their capital city makes more sense than some distant lands North.

On off topic note regarding the dothraki, I favor the theory that the Lhazareen people and Dothraki are somehow related.

However, after the Doom the slaver cities became independent city-states. They take pride in their Ghiscari culture and heritage, but they are politically independent cities. There is a resurgent 'New Ghiscari Empire' which seems to be based in New Ghis and spread over the offshore islands and the mainland south of Astapor, but this has not yet absorbed the slaver cities. One of the worries from the ADWD situation might be that Yunkai and Astapor accepting New Ghis's aid in conquering Meereen could be a bad idea in the long run (as it may allow New Ghis to extend its influence over the independent cities).

That is a very intriguing idea, any guess as to when New Ghis was established/renamed, I doubt that Valyria would have allow it.

[SeanF]

The Red Waste may not have been desert hundreds of years ago. After all, Dany found a ruined city to rest her people in, which implies some of what is now desert was fertile in the past.

New Ghis seems by far the most formidable of the successor city states in military terms. The city may have come into existence under Valyrian rule, but it would obviously not have been independent.

[Darth Rivers]

Yunka'i/Astapori vs Ghiscari is somewhat like Athenians/Spartans vs Greeks.

[Second sword of Braavos]

New Ghis might have been a old Ghiscari city renamed New Ghis after the Doom.

[Werthead]

Either that or a Valyrian colony which was likewise renamed. The city appears to be on the other side of its island to Valyria, so didn't suffer the fate of many of the surrounding cities which were destroyed in the tsunamis resulting from the Doom, allowing it to grow more powerful very quickly.