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What will Khal Jhaqo do with Daenerys?


Lady Hodor

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Haggo, one of Drogo's blood riders, calls Mirri a maegi before she starts doing blood magic. So you're wrong -- they did know, and they still raped her. (AGOT: Daenerys VII)

Haggo calls Mirri a maegi after he rapes her, not before. He only discovered that Mirri was a maegi when Mirri said so, which was AFTER the rapes.

What do you think happens to women who are in physical danger in this world? What has Martin tried to show us over the whole series?

So that explains why Cersei was raped during her walk in King's Landing, right? And why Asha was raped when she was captured by Stannis and the northmen? Why Sansa, who has clearly in terrible physical danger since AGOT, has been raped by so many, many people?

Jhaqo had no reason to rape her when he last saw her.

She'd been blamed for Drogo's death, for using blood magic, and for preventing the Dothraki from raping the Lamb Women (any more at least). He had plenty of reasons to rape her, if in fact he'd wanted to rape her.

Now she has crushed the slave trade and is the most powerful woman in the world.

Not only is the slave trade alive and well, Dany is in no way the most powerful woman in the world.

Additionally, as you have pointed out, she has refused to be a normal khaleesi and join the Crones at Vaes Dothrak, which Jhaqo will likely take as an insult. I therefore believe that Dany is in serious danger of being raped and find it horrifying that you find this funny.

So offended = raped? Um, nope. Dany offended and insulted a crapload of Dothraki during AGOT, yet none of them raped her when she'd lost her status as Khaleesi. If anyone's going to be supremely offended by Dany's actions, it's the crones themselves. And they're certainly not going to rape her.

I find it horrifying that you feel comfortable putting words in my mouth and then condemning me for things I've never said.

Firstly, Irri and Jhiqui are ordinary Dothraki.

Irri and Jhiqui were Dany's slaves. They were not free, ordinary Dothraki women. Dany says she's now freed them, but Jhiqui clearly still considers Missandei a slave, and she knows Dany's "freed" Missandei. I sincerely doubt Irri and Jhiqui genuinely believe they're free women.

Secondly, we do not know how much time Dany spent with the other members of her khalasar; what we do know is that they remain incredibly loyal to her and even follow her across the "poison water".

We've never been shown Dany interacting with other members of the khalasar, which GRRM clearly could have shown, and they "remain incredibly loyal" to her because they have nowhere else to go. These are the people the other khals expressly didn't want.

She will interact with free Dothraki women... By, you know, interacting with the crones.

Yeah, the crones are just going to LOVE Dany.

As Dany did not actively choose to be a khaleesi, this argument is pointless. She did not choose to be a khaleesi, so when Drogo died she chose to take control of her life and not live out the rest of her days with the other crones.

Oh, BS. She got the perks, she knew all along what her responsibilities would be, and she felt the rules didn't apply to her. She didn't choose to marry Drogo, but she did choose to embrace the role of Khaleesi.

Daenerys has been in physical danger her whole life. To ignore this is laughable.

So that's why she was getting raped throughout the Free Cities? Because obviously physical danger = rape, correct?

I found this post deeply troubling.

I find your blatant paternalism deeply troubling.

I will never understand how you can be so passionate about wanting Dany to suffer physical abuse. You say it's because she's caused violence in the past... but isn't that why you're against Dany's punishments in the first place? Because they're vengeance and retribution, not justice? If you want Dany to suffer for inflicting suffering, then aren't you in fact justifying her actions?

In other words, you've never understood anything I've said. Why on earth is it misogynistic to expect Dany to suffer physically, but it somehow isn't misandry to expect Ramsay, Roose, and Stannis to suffer physically? Why should a woman be held to a different standard from men when she's committing the same acts as those men? Why on earth should she get special treatment when her actions are the same?

I don't expect Dany to suffer physically because she's a woman and I somehow want women to suffer. I expect Dany to suffer physically because she's been responsible for untold amounts of physical suffering in others, male and female, and when push comes to shove, it's always other people who suffer to benefit Dany. I think that should change. She's perfectly okay with ordering other people to suffer excruciating deaths, she's perfectly okay with ordering other people tortured, she's perfectly okay with savagely sacking multiple cities, but . . . the very idea of Dany herself suffering physically, well, somehow that's beyond the pale? Please.

I'm against Dany's "punishments" because 1) she rarely, if ever, punishes people for actual crimes she knows they've committed, 2) she routinely sinks to her enemies' levels, thus abdicating any moral high ground she might have had, and 3) her actions have resulted in the brutalizations and deaths, not only of evil mustache-twirling adult slavers, but of children. Children had to have died in the sacks of Meereen and Astapor. Torture's okay if Dany's doing it, crucifixion's okay if Dany's doing it, brutally sacking a city was a horrible thing when Tywin Lannister did it but somehow it's less horrific when Dany does it? She hasn't just negligently allowed violence to happen, she's gone out and instigated that violence. Yet she always ends up smelling like roses. Maybe if she actually finds herself at the bottom of the heap for a change, if she finds herself alone among a group of people who aren't falling over themselves to kiss her ass, maybe she'll finally stop assuming her shit doesn't stink. She, like all the men, can't expect to rain down destruction on others while never expecting to be in any danger herself.

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So that's why she was getting raped throughout the Free Cities? Because obviously physical danger = rape, correct?

Not to mention that this is patently untrue. People are buying into the things Viserys told Dany when we have it from the horses mouth that they were untrue. And yet it comes up ALL THE TIME.

Danger, lol.

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Mummer: I think you're right, but I also think it's interesting that you say they'll respect dragons because they respect the strong. Interesting because it highlights a weakness of Dany's story so far, IMO.

They do respect the strong, but they respect physical strength, not magical strength (see their reaction to Mirri). Dragons are magical. The Dothraki respect the strength of men on horseback with weapons, not so much magic. Maybe the one exception to this that we see is the dosh khaleen...but their power is limited to the particular place of Vaes Dothrak. There are no magical crones leading khalasars across the Dothraki sea.

Which is why it sort of surprised me that any Dothraki would willingly follow Dany in the first place, at the end of AGoT. I can see them being scared of her magic, but not *wanting* to follow her for it. Maybe unwillingly follow her out of fear and then run away from her as a scary "maegi," but willingly follow her? I didn't quite buy it. Especially since none of the Dothraki were given a POV or portrayed as 3-dimensional.

True enough, Dany's bloodrider's at first to refused serve her beyond the capacity of taking her to Vaes Dothrak, because it would shame them to follow a feeble woman. But after they saw the dragon's hatch, they started muttering "blood of my blood" and hitched themselves to her wagon fast enough. Also, Dany's Dothraki handmaidens insisted Dany be given bells in her hair to signify her "victory" over the Undying of Qarth. It seems that they do view her as strong, whether it's because of her supposed "magic" or because she is the Mother of Dragons. But I suppose it could go either way as far as winning the Khalasar's allegiance.
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So that explains why Cersei was raped during her walk in King's Landing, right? And why Asha was raped when she was captured by Stannis and the northmen? Why Sansa, who has clearly in terrible physical danger since AGOT, has been raped by so many, many people?

Without Cersei's guards it's quite likely that she WOULD have been raped. Asha also had guards when she was with Stannis. Sansa also came close to rape in the riot of King's Landing (the show took this further, obviously, but she was still in very serious danger).

Dany being dragged by the Dothraki is NOT the same as any of these, as you are hoping that Dany will not have any guards to protect her.

She'd been blamed for Drogo's death, for using blood magic, and for preventing the Dothraki from raping the Lamb Women (any more at least). He had plenty of reasons to rape her, if in fact he'd wanted to rape her.

Plenty of reasons? That's a pretty gross way to put it. Dany had guards at this point, and Jhaqo believed she would be joining the Crones. But she didn't.

Not only is the slave trade alive and well, Dany is in no way the most powerful woman in the world.

Crushed =/= finished. And I'm sorry, but which woman is more powerful than Dany? She has the Unsullied, three dragons (one of which she has now bonded with), all the Brazen Beasts of Meereen, various freedmen, and a number of sellsword companies. Hell, which MAN is more powerful than Dany right now?

I find it horrifying that you feel comfortable putting words in my mouth and then condemning me for things I've never said.

You put a comedic spin on Dany's situation. I said this was distasteful as she is in serious danger of getting raped and seriously injured, which would not be funny in the slightest. You didn't need to say "Dany will get raped. Whoops" because the threat of Dany being raped is already THERE.

Yeah, the crones are just going to LOVE Dany.

"

A line of naked crones emerging from a lake, kneeling before Daenerys beneath the

Mother of Mountains". They're going to be kneeling before her, after Dany uses fire, and they're going to declare her a Khal in her own right. This suggests that Drogon will be with her, so sadly you won't get your fantasy of Dany being in physical danger.

Oh, BS. She got the perks, she knew all along what her responsibilities would be, and she felt the rules didn't apply to her. She didn't choose to marry Drogo, but she did choose to embrace the role of Khaleesi.

What else was she supposed to DO? You're blaming her for adapting to a horrible situation to avoid her own pain?

In other words, you've never understood anything I've said. Why on earth is it misogynistic to expect Dany to suffer physically, but it somehow isn't misandry to expect Ramsay, Roose, and Stannis to suffer physically? Why should a woman be held to a different standard from men when she's committing the same acts as those men? Why on earth should she get special treatment when her actions are the same?

If Ramsay, Roose or Stannis were under the threat of rape and you laughed at it, I would be more likely to accuse you of misogyny, not misandry, because rape of men is not done due to the belief that the male gender is inferior. [Edited for clarification.]

Not to mention that this is patently untrue. People are buying into the things Viserys told Dany when we have it from the horses mouth that they were untrue. And yet it comes up ALL THE TIME.

Danger, lol.

She BELIEVED she was in danger -- that's the point.

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If Ramsay, Roose or Stannis were under the threat of rape and you laughed at it, I would also accuse you of misogyny (but not misandry).

Why misogyny if the threatened persons were male?

Caveat: I'm just asking about your choice of words. I don't mean to derail this thread or start an argument.

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Why misogyny if the threatened persons were male?

Caveat: I'm just asking about your choice of words. I don't mean to derail this thread or start an argument.

Well when men are raped it's normally to make them feel less masculine, so some have argued it's misogyny. For example, if someone laughed at the idea of Ramsay being raped, it's not because they believe the male gender to be inferior, but because they want him to feel emasculated. (I'm working by the British definition of rape, which states that only men can rape.)

I'm not going to be replying to this thread anymore because I've said all I can say on the issue -- that Dany is going to be the first Khaleesi to be aknowledged as a Khal in her own right by the crones, and that Dany will go to Vaes Dothrak with Drogon (hence why the crones emerge from a lake).

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Well when men are raped it's normally to make them feel less masculine, so some have argued it's misogyny. For example, if someone laughed at the idea of Ramsay being raped, it's not because they believe the male gender to be inferior, but because they want him to feel emasculated. (I'm working by the British definition of rape, which states that only men can rape.)

That is the most ridiculous and uninformed thing I have heard in awhile.

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That is the most ridiculous and uninformed thing I have heard in awhile.

It was a bad example and I probably shouldn't have brought it up. My point was supposed to be that it wasn't misandry. I'm not trying to say that it would be misogyny like it would be if it were a woman, but that it isn't misandry because it's more about emasculating than due to the belief that the male gender is inferior.

If anyone has anything else to say on this topic please PM me. I'm not getting my point across very well and sadly I'm derailing an interesting thread.

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@ PatrickStormborn

Sorry if an argument has stirred in the thread, that was no one's intention, I'm sure.

Debates can often get pretty bitchy :P But no need to worry, we're all just fans here :)

Back on track, heres a thought that no one has considered. What if Jhaqo leaves Dany to rot in the Dothraki Sea?

Its quite an... "UnDothraki" thing to do, but its also pretty cruel, and gives Dany the chance she needs to actually rely on herself.

They might just apphrehend Drogon, take off with their amazing new mount, and leave Dany to starve into sickness and death.

Unlikely, perhaps, but who knows.

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[mod] I think we've had more than enough of the interpersonal bickering in this thread. People are entitled to their opinions, and if you think them unqualified to hold those opinions, you're free to ignore them. But you're not free to attack the person for expressing them. OK?

Also, it is time to drop the whole discussion about hypothetical rape situations. Any further posts on that will be deleted. [/mod]

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  • 1 month later...

Good point but Aegon seemed to use his army first and kept the dragons a last resort, so having 20k horse would be boon to any army, plus its known that Dany will unite all the kahlasars into one.

Which was smart. Even a dragon can be killed.
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I don't see any way, given the hints GRRM has given thus far, for Dany to avoid ending up in Vaes Dothrak. Not only does the prophecy from the HOTU point there, but we know how much GRRM loves his parallels, and given all the parallels thus far between Dany and Cersei, the fact that Cersei ended up imprisoned by a bunch of crones at the end of AFFC can very easily foreshadow a parallel with Dany being imprisoned by the crones of Vaes Dothrak in TWOW.

Whether she goes to Vaes Dothrak of her own volition or she gets dragged there in chains, it all depends on Drogon. If he stays with her, if he roasts the khalasar, then Dany's position is strong, and she'll be the one calling the shots. But the problem is, look at what Dany says about Drogon's daily schedule:

Every day he hunts in the Dothraki Sea, but every night he flies back to his lair. And look at what time it is when Dany encounters the khalasar:

So Drogon always leaves off his hunting at nighttime to fly back to his lair, Dany's final chapter ended with the sky turning dark as night approaches . . . I think Drogon's going to fly back to Dragonstone, and Dany's going to find herself stranded among a hostile khalasar led by a khal who's going to drag her back to Vaes Dothrak kicking and screaming. Whoops.

Sounds plausible to me (thumbs up for the textual references). It would fit into GRRM's way of writing.

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Many new replies and I'm still convinced Daenerys is not the potential victim here. She has control over Drogon and she'll burn them if she needs. Besides, Dothraki are not entirely stupid. Khal Jhaqo may often find starving girls in the Dothraki sea who he takes for slaves, but a girl feasting on charred horse flesh with her vast dragon for company is not exactly the same thing. Daenerys will ally, fly off or burn their asses.

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This meeting with the dothraki must be short. I can't handle it taking half the book before she is back at meereen. I am hoping for arrival to westeros by the end of the next book. So hoping, a quick killing of jhago.

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