Quaithe & Aegon's legitemacy.

[MikeDC]

Technically, Quaithe's words have already been shown to be only partially true. Didn't Quentyn show up before the Pale Mare? At least before Danny got it, for sure.

And everyone's assuming Tyrion is gonna be allied with Danny, but the Quaithe is pretty clear that Danny shouldn't trust him anymore than he should trust any of the others.

And finally, why list Connington (the Griffin) and the Mummer's Dragon (presumably Young Grif/Aegon) separately? That is askew from everything else. By himself, Jon Con seems like a non entity.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

Technically, Quaithe's words have already been shown to be only partially true. Didn't Quentyn show up before the Pale Mare? At least before Danny got it, for sure.

I don't think he announces himself to Dany until after the pale mare arose. The other warnings needn't be chronological.

Though I think the sensechal is Vary and he comes last - the final boss. :)

And everyone's assuming Tyrion is gonna be allied with Danny, but the Quaithe is pretty clear that Danny shouldn't trust him anymore than he should trust any of the others.

Quaithe has basically told Dany to trust no one. Tyrion happened to be worthy of a special mention since he's trying to get close to her.

And finally, why list Connington (the Griffin) and the Mummer's Dragon (presumably Young Grif/Aegon) separately? That is askew from everything else. By himself, Jon Con seems like a non entity.

Connington is basically Aegon's hand at the moment. Without Connington - who sadly looks like he's going to die soon anyway - Aegon is doomed.

[Rheagar Prime]

I sure as hell don't trust quaithe thats all i can say

[Silmarien]

Thus far Quaithe hasn't done anything to suggest untrustworthiness (I think I just made up that word).

She's a bit shady though.

I'd trust Quaithe over Mel, Varys, and LF any day....at least Quaithe has been RIGHT.

[Eejit]

I'd trust Quaithe over Mel, Varys, and LF any day....at least Quaithe has been RIGHT.

Wait, so the Griffin actually showed up at Dany's door?

[Silmarien]

Wait, so the Griffin actually showed up at Dany's door?

Well all Quaithe said was "soon comes...." She never actually says they'd get there. And we know as readers that Connington and (f)Aegon were actually coming to Mereen, so.....yeah.

[Eejit]

They were, but changed their minds and went in the opposite direction. Hence it wasn't prophecy, but an educated guess. Quaithe is very much fallible.

[Silmarien]

They were, but changed their minds and went in the opposite direction. Hence it wasn't prophecy, but an educated guess. Quaithe is very much fallible.

She never said "Lion and griffen will be here!"

She said..."Soon comes....x and x and x and x.....trust none of them." Connington and (f)Aegon are still going to influence Dany, so she'll have to contend with them. How was her warning wrong?

[Eejit]

Because they didn't "come" to Dany or Mereen.

[Silmarien]

Because they didn't "come" to Dany or Mereen.

Right, but is there any reason to believe Dany won't have to deal with them?

They were coming, after all, (f)Aegon just changed his mind when Tyrion suggested he go show Dany he was worthy of marrying her by conquering Westeros first...

[Eejit]

We're going in circles here. Please stop trying to re-write the english language :P

If it was a genuine prophecy there would be no room for Aegon to change his mind and go somewhere else instead of coming to Mereen. You can't change predestiny on a whim.

However if it does make sense if Quaithe was merely making a warning based on current far-flung events and plans seen using a glass candle or some similar means.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

Because they didn't "come" to Dany or Mereen.

"Come" can have a temporal meaning. Dany is mobile. If she sails to Westeros then soon comes the griffin. Her next challenge.

"Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and Dark Flame. Lion and Griffin. The son's son and the mummer's dragon." = you will soon face all of these threats. It needn't mean all of these threats are coming to you.

Alternative: Prophecies, to my knowledge of the arcane, cannot be avoided but can be delayed. So while Dany may not face the Griffin and mummer's dragon as soon as Quaithe predicted, she's fated to eventually.

Qauithe also could have literally seen them with her glass candle telescope, but i think the candle doesn't see a set reality as it were, which is why she she's able to identofy the characters by their sigil. If she saw Tyrion she wouldn't know he's a lion.The candle must give you a prophetic image. Quaithe looked into the candle and literally saw a lion, a griffin, and a dark flame.

[Dana]

I do apologize, again not being sarcastic :P

I misspoke. I should have said: I've looked at every shred of "evidence" on Aegon's illegitemacy.

But that is exactly the point. There's no hard evidence either way.

But I am pretty certain that Jon Connington would know something was up. He knew Rhaegar intimately, he migt just be deluding himself but I'm sure he'd know whether this kid was half Targ and half Dornish, as well as the son of his best friend.

The point here is that one could swing either way, my personal belief is the one I described.

I understand that people may feel cheated by Aegon showing up so late in the game, but isn't that kinda the point? This keeps the plot exciting, I remember yelling aloud "No f'cking way!" when I first read the YG/Aegon reveal.

Wasn't Jon Connington exiled immediately after the Battle of the Bells? He was already in the Free Cities by the time of the Sack of KL, he wouldn't have been able to see Varys do anything. The Septa, Jon Connington, the Halfmaester, even Tyrion by this point, all want to believe in Aegon's legitimacy just in case Daenarys is crazy like her dad or something. The fact that Doran and Arianne are skeptical in WoW is enough for me to be skeptical, because at the end of ADwD, I wanted to believe it too. Why? B/c all the POV characters assoc. w/ him believed it. But interestingly enough, neither Moqorro or Melisandre sees or says anything about him, and Quaithe warns against him...

[Jolene Brown]

Why are the Dornish the only characters in this series with any damn sense? They are skeptical about Gregor Clegane too, when they get his head, asking how they know it's really his. One of the biggest problems with suspension of disbelief in this series is the times when people accept death fake-outs... the ruse with Bran/Rickon seemed obvious to me, and the same with Davos. If the dead person on the stake is who somebody says it is, why would they not make that obvious and clear? Why would anyone accept a skull or a tarred head instead of insisting on seeing the real thing, or someone they trust seeing the real thing?

[Eejit]

"Come" can have a temporal meaning. Dany is mobile. If she sails to Westeros then soon comes the griffin. Her next challenge.

"Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and Dark Flame. Lion and Griffin. The son's son and the mummer's dragon." = you will soon face all of these threats. It needn't mean all of these threats are coming to you.

Alternative: Prophecies, to my knowledge of the arcane, cannot be avoided but can be delayed. So while Dany may not face the Griffin and mummer's dragon as soon as Quaithe predicted, she's fated to eventually.

Qauithe also could have literally seen them with her glass candle telescope, but i think the candle doesn't see a set reality as it were, which is why she she's able to identofy the characters by their sigil. If she saw Tyrion she wouldn't know he's a lion.The candle must give you a prophetic image. Quaithe looked into the candle and literally saw a lion, a griffin, and a dark flame.

Let go of your bias ;)

As you correctly point out prophecies cannot be avoided. You take this to mean that one must twist the english language so that Quaithe's words can remain prophecy, when occam's razor suggests that it was never really prophecy to begin with.

Every character/group listed in the warning were on their way to "come" to Dany in Mereen at that time. Every character/group except for Griffin (+ Mummer's Dragon?) is still "coming" to Mereen. Clearly the warning was about people coming to see Dany in her current location.

However, the fact that YG changing his mind and heading in the opposite direction was able to invalidate Quaithe's warning about them indicates that this was prediction rather than prophecy.

There is nothing to back up your assumption of how a glass candle works. It's equally plausible that peering through a glass candle at various locations and players for the last couple of years (or more) means Quaithe is familiar with all or most critical characters.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

There is nothing to back up your assumption of how a glass candle works. It's equally plausible that peering through a glass candle at various locations and players for the last couple of years (or more) means Quaithe is familiar with all or most critical characters.

Only now are the glass candles burning so Quaithe has had a limited time to to use them. If she saw real life images, she wouldn't know that Aegon is a mummer's dragon as opposed to a dragon, that Tyrion is a lion as opposed to a dwarf, or that the seneschal reeks of perfume. A more likely explanation is that what she sees are representational images which she's relating to Dany in an uninterpreted state, unlike Mel who tries to interpret what she sees in the fires.

Come having more than one meaning isn't twisting the language. Soon come my LSATS = I will take them soon, not that they will arrive on my doorstep.

[Lord Paramount of Essos]

I always pictured dark Flame as Blackfyre,

Also the Beware the perfumed seneschal is her husband, right?

[bent branch]

The verb come has twenty-three different meanings. One of these meanings is to approach a particular person or place (Come here). Another one of the meanings is to approach or arrive in time, in succession (I'll come to your question next).

[COYStars]

The key point in all of this, though, in answer to the OP, is that - whether he is who he claims to be, or a Blackfyre, or whatever - Young Griff/Aegon is not a Griffin. There is nothing to lead us to believe that YG is a descendent of Connington.

So describing him as a Griffin would only be understandable if (1) there's a further twist in the tale to come, and he's actually a Connington rather than a Blackfyre or Targ; or (2) Quaithe cannot actually see into the future, all she can see is the present (and a superficial version no less) and we cannot rely upon her to determine what will come to pass.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Because they didn't "come" to Dany or Mereen.

Show me in the text where Quaithe says any of them will come to Mereen. Why can't it mean that soon Dany will come into contact with them?

I've seen you argue on other threads that "mummer's dragon" could mean any number of things besides fake dragon but apparently "soon comes x y and z" can only have one meaning and one meaning only. That seems pretty convenient.