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[Book Spoilers] Jaime killing Cleos/Alton


Katydid

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this differs from killing ned's household guard how? cuz it was more than one person?

Because to the Lanisters the war had already started by then. Cat declared war when she captured Tyrion, and Ned's men were just enemy soldiers. Killing them may not have been merciful, but at least it had a point.

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So faking an illness is a cliché but statrting a fight in the cell is believable? They're both hackneyed ideas, difference is they found a way to sex up the fight.

Jaime is not a psychopath. His motives are more complex than you or the show runners give him credit for.

really? explain his motives when he said he would have killed arya?

The study of the psychopath reveals an individual who is incapable of feeling guilt, remorse or empathy for their actions. They are generally cunning, manipulative and know the difference between right and wrong but dismiss it as not applying to them.

They are incapable of normal emotions such as love, generally react without considering the consequences of their actions and show extreme egocentric and narcissistic behavior.

no, jamie's not a psychopath...

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Because to the Lanisters the war had already started by then. Cat declared war when she captured Tyrion, and Ned's men were just enemy soldiers. Killing them may not have been merciful, but at least it had a point.

enemy soldiers who were no threat to him at the time.......Ned wasn't dead yet, so the war didn't start yet with the starks.

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So faking an illness is a cliché but statrting a fight in the cell is believable? They're both hackneyed ideas, difference is they found a way to sex up the fight.

Jaime is not a psychopath. His motives are more complex than you or the show runners give him credit for.

arent they supposed to do that for TV?

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What are you talking it about? It didn't dumb anything down. If anything it made Jaimie more complex.

And to Brienne I'm basing it on that After Jaimie and Cersei basically living there worse nightmares, the last we see of both in the book they are contemplating going back to the way they were.

Thats...not true. No idea where you got that from.

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Because to the Lanisters the war had already started by then. Cat declared war when she captured Tyrion, and Ned's men were just enemy soldiers. Killing them may not have been merciful, but at least it had a point.

If Jaime considered this a military encounter and the war already started at the time, then he is the worst military commander ever, killing the low-ranked soldiers and leaving alive and free the leader of the enemy when he had a chance to kill or capture him.

Since we know he's isn't that incompetent, it's clear this wasn't a war action for Jaime - it was motivated by anger, cruelty and recklessness.

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If Jaime considered this a military encounter and the war already started at the time, then he is the worst military commander ever, killing the low-ranked soldiers and leaving alive and free the leader of the enemy when he had a chance to kill or capture him.

Since we know he's isn't that incompetent, it's clear this wasn't a war action for Jaime - it was motivated by , anger, cruelty and recklessness.

this too.....................

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not sarcasm at all actually.

where do you get protecting his kids? where do you get trying to prevent a war? was he trying to prevent a war when he killed ned's guards in kings landing?

lol, he's protecting the twin sister that he's fucking's head. that's it. that's the only argument for it, and its a lot more amoral than killing another prisoner to escape captivity.

Good point. I think a lot of people like Jaime so much by the end of ASOS that they forget what he was like pre-hand-chop. Jaime is very much a mixed bag, and they keep the grey areas in the show:

1. He pushes Bran out the window

2. He stabs King Aerys in the back, but is conflicted because his duties as a knight/king's guard conflicted

3. He attacks Ned Stark, but he does it out of love for Tyrion

4. He kills his cousin to escape

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this differs from killing ned's household guard how? cuz it was more than one person?

cause they were armed and could defend themselves and Ned Stark was a threat to him through Tyrion

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and again, JL's redemptin did not start with losing to Brienne and losing his hand, it started earlier when he didnt kill Brienne when he had the chance ie earlier than losing his hand. I would argue that his redemption started when he lost the Whispering Woods and was imprisoned.

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i just can't get over that it's an inconceivable jump from a guy who kills a child to protect his incestuous relationship without even talking to the kid or feeling one iota of grief to a guy who kills another prisoner to escape from prison...

how is that possibly a stretch and that's not even mentioning everything else that jamie does, just the bran example. he doesn't care about anyone but himself, clearly.

pretty much everything about the first one is worse than everything about the second one.

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cause they were armed and could defend themselves and Ned Stark was a threat to him through Tyrion

how are they a threat to tyrion? his guard? I guess I'm not smart enough to see how ned's guard was a threat to tyrion in the vale...

do you deny that jamie would have killed arya if he found her? do you think arya posed a threat to jamie?

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and again, JL's redemptin did not start with losing to Brienne and losing his hand, it started earlier when he didnt kill Brienne when he had the chance ie earlier than losing his hand. I would argue that his redemption started when he lost the Whispering Woods and was imprisoned.

that would be a bad argument. he couldn't kill brienne, his hands were chained together and he was malnourished and weak.

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that would be a bad argument. he couldn't kill brienne, his hands were chained together and he was malnourished and weak.

she was swimming to the boat and he had an oar in his hand.

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So faking an illness is a cliché but statrting a fight in the cell is believable? They're both hackneyed ideas, difference is they found a way to sex up the fight.

Jaime is not a psychopath. His motives are more complex than you or the show runners give him credit for.

at least you admit he's a sociopath.

although i wouldnt think its a stretch for either to kill someone to get out of prison

He's obviously a sociapath but there are degrees of sociopathy.

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I generally don't complain, and don't mind the changes at all, even welcome them. I think in many ways the show is surpassing the book. But I disliked this move a lot - not just because it moves Jaime away from the character of the books, and makes his redemption more difficult to accept, but also because it moves Jaime away from the character OF THE SHOW as he's been introduced up to now.

Firstly, do I think that Jaime is above kinslaying, in either book or show? No. Tyrion in the books is pretty confident that Jaime will kill Lancel when he returns, and Tyrion as we know is a pretty good judge of character. He makes the same threat to Lancel in the show, and it must be a believable one given that its succesful at intimidating him.

The problem is not that Jaime is above killing family members, but in the way that he killed him. Not just the book, but the SHOW also, has introduced Jaime as a man who is ruthless, and does not mind killing his enemies, but that at the same time he is a man who doesn't play games, and has his own personal sense of honour in that when he kills somebody, he wants it to be a 'clean' death, in a face-to-face battle. This is a man who by his own admission, and as his father successfully judges, in the show, hates the fact that he is being called a kinglsayer for stabbing the mad king "in the back". This is a man who knocks out own of his men for stabbing Ned Stark in the foot and preventing it from being a 'clean' fight. This is the man who by his own admission doesn't want to be part of the game, whom his sister admits to never taking it seriously. This is the man who when Catelyn confronts him about what happened to Bran, comes out and straight tells her that he pushed him off a window because he wanted him to die. Yes he pushes Bran off to his death, but that is an act of the moment because he has to protect the other defining feature of his character - i.e. his love for Cercei.

If we allow ourselves to go to the book, Jaime, when managing to get a sword, is more than willing to fight Brienne with the intend to kill, but refuses to kill her sneakily with his oar, while she is swimming in the river.

I would not mind if he killed his cousin in a scene where, say, he is escaping, and his cousin, terrified, stands in his way, pulls a sword out, and tells him 'Cousin, this is madness!'. But what Jaime does is emotionally manipulate his cousin, play a game with him, lead him to trust him, and then kills him sneakily in an underhanded, completely unfair, and dishonorable way. That is NOT something that the character the SHOW introduced would do. In this regard the show is inconsistent with itself not just the book. What makes it even worse is that there's a thousand different ways that an escape attempt could have been thought of, and a thousand different ways for Jaime to kill his cousin in a more 'clean' way, if that was desirable. But the show went with the method that was the most dishonorable, apparently for shock value, and without much concern for internal consistency.

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doesn't mean he would have killed her. they did fight if I recall. doesn't sound like him not trying to kill her because he "started his redemption arc" to me.

The intent of the scene in the book is pretty clear that Jaime has the option to kill her but chooses not to do do so. Not because of some weird technical reason like 'he is malnurished'. it would be very bad writing for Martin to make a point of pointing out in that scene that Jaime sees the opportunity, and chooses not to act, unless he wanted to make a point about Jaime's character. But the way I read it isn't that Jaime has started his 'redemption' - but that its a defining aspect of his character that he only enjoys and accepts battle when its face to face and 'clean'. He is willing to fight Brienne with the intend to kill when he gets a sword and she can defend herself against him, but is unwilling to kill her in an underhanded manner. This is after all a man who despises being hated for killing the mad king 'in the back'.

My own opinion on the whole scene is in the post above.

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doesn't mean he would have killed her. they did fight if I recall. doesn't sound like him not trying to kill her because he "started his redemption arc" to me.

I think that killing Brienne in the river would have been infinitely easier that kiling Cleo to escape from the enemy camp. but there is a reason that Jamie didnt kill Brienne and it has nothing to do with being malnourished, presumably the same would be said for his situatin in the cage

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