A Look at A Man Without Honor

[Westeros]

As the screeners have dried up, reviews here on out will no longer be posted earlier than Monday… and after quite a few hours of work, I’ve finished up most of our material for A Man Without Honor. The usual video we create won’t be done until tomorrow, however—apologies for that, but writing the recap, analysis, and chapter-by-chapter breakdown took most of the day!And for those interested, here’s the preview video for “The Prince of Winterfell”.

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[boojam]

We have a real esthetic agreement over Qarth.

There are only ,off the top of my head, five Dany chapters in Qarth in CoK.

As far as mythopoaeic (boy! a 32 dollar word)...if there is any really important 'created mythology' in I am at a loss in seeing it. Some yes , nothing that sticks in my mind such as Tolkien does, which I why I don't think George want's to be considered the 'American Tolkien'.

George's always tells a creative and entertaining yarn, but in Qarth I felt is was in some lessor tale from A Thousand Nights and One Night.

A more than entertaining travelog riff by George which , frankly, I found only mildly enigmatic.

With the exception of the square wave of the House of the Undying , which almost seemed like George was 'gardening' along and he said to him self , oops, need a zinger for Dany here!

I knew when it came time, D&D have a vast visual audience looking for a visual narrative, and they had to dream up something, their own zinger. Thing is, they are still running into the problem of trying to cram everything and the kitchen sink into a one quart jar, this Qarth stuff seems a struggle for them... I think it's taking care of so blasted much of the other part of the story that is stalling them.

On Clarke's performance, as I have noted elsewhere, it not her, it's that blasted script and direction, its almost seems like the production unit doing this work is struggling. Given the proper dialog and direction she would be doing just fine, she showed she could last year.

[boojam]

At this point, I think I’d like to call a moratorium on Arya and Tywin scenes. Yes, they’re good—but they’re starting to feel rote, the interactions always on the same topic, more or less: Tywin’s humanity, Tywin’s concern for his family and its future, and of course his probing at her identity and history. The historic detail of Harrenhal (and that fine shot of the ruins, even if they are quite different from what’s described) and Aegon’s sisters are of course always near and dear to my heart, and again it touches on the idea of legacies. And stranger still, why has Arya not used her third name on Tywin? Before, it had been assumed that they were developing her relationship with Tywin so that she couldn’t quite bring herself to such cold-blooded killing… but this episode features a moment where she is clearly tempted by the thought of killing him. Of course, the show will doubtless provide a third name in time… but at the moment one only wonders why Arya isn’t naming the Lord of Casterly Rock as soon as possible if she’s feeling murderous despite the conversations they’ve had. And, as an aside: while it’s logical for Tywin to doubt that anyone would send an assassin for Amory Lorch…. the scene could have been much better staged if they wanted to convey the idea that the dart could have been construed as having been aimed at Tywin but that Lorch somehow got in its way. That said, if Tywin believes an attempt was made on his life, why is he limiting his questioning to his own soldiers?

I for one have like the cat the mouse game between Tywin and Arya, been one of the best done dialog sequences in this season.

Catching her at not being a commoner ... loved that... I think I noticed that she switched how she held a knife and fork before the 'My Lord' bit...and by the way Dance is perfect, he catches the manner of speech and says nothing, just with his eyes!

It looks to be all over next week.

Well in the novel didn't Arya regret not fingering Tywin, even tho she had no interaction with him?

Yeah Tywin jumping to the conclusion that he was the target, was a bit of a stretch, but not out of the realm of possibility.

His own soldiers I thought that a bit of an awkward plot device. Of course killing the house hold staff wouldn't have done any good at all.

I guess Tywin would never have guessed a FM ... , so it's the Brother Hood....

It was never explained in the book, was it?, how Biter, Rorge, and Jaqen came to be part of Ser Amory's men. O well never doubt the powers of a FM!

By the by what the heck happened to Biter and Rorge? Those guys with Jaqen ,in that brief scene, did not seem to be them. In CoK Jaqen seemed to have a lock on them , o well, FM stuff again.

By the by, by way of Dance, and I thought D&D mentioned it, they were making Twyin a more complex character for the series. Well if you have Dance in your employ, why not!

[GoodGuyA]

I will never understand your fascination with Qarth, Ran. That section of the book is so unmemorable to me. While there was some interesting things going on in personal relations, the politics was one of the most boring backgrounds to a culture I've ever seen. When people bring up Qarth, I immediately think "That's where the House of the Undying was, right?". Your whole description about the "fairy tale" that Qarth is was so undermined by the fact that the culture itself was ignored by Dany, and thus ignored by the reader. I welcome at least something to spice it up, and I think taking the dragons wasn't a bad move. Not to say that this Qarth or characters are spectacular either, but they tried their best to make something truly forgettable into something better.

[unRobert]

I will never understand your fascination with Qarth, Ran. That section of the book is so unmemorable to me. While there was some interesting things going on in personal relations, the politics was one of the most boring backgrounds to a culture I've ever seen. When people bring up Qarth, I immediately think "That's where the House of the Undying was, right?". Your whole description about the "fairy tale" that Qarth is was so undermined by the fact that the culture itself was ignored by Dany, and thus ignored by the reader. I welcome at least something to spice it up, and I think taking the dragons wasn't a bad move. Not to say that this Qarth or characters are spectacular either, but they tried their best to make something truly forgettable into something better.

Well, you're right that as readers we saw it through Dany's young eyes, so we missed a lot of nuance to the inner workings of Qarth. From what I could tell though, it was far, far more interesting than any of the slaver cities. We know little of their ancient cultures or if they were ever part of/ruled a large empire. We know that there are warlocks and a weak ruling set of "Pureborn" with powerful trading guilds battling for political supremacy. It is a fascinating place, and purposely mysterious. In short, boring Dany chapters made this place "forgettable" whereas I place it as a great mystery of the series. And it is this mystery that makes the further lands - Yi Ti, Asshai-by the shadow even more intriguing.

[Ran]

The reason the details of the culture is "ignored" is because it's a deliberate strategy by Martin to heighten the weirdness and enigma of the place. For some readers, this obviously seems to mean that the place is meaningless and unimportant. Fort others, it's an indicator that Dany's narrative is not operating at the same sort of thematic and tonal level as the rest of the narrative. The House of the Undying is simply emblematic of this fact -- it's Martin's Black Lodge, and I guess that makes Qarth the Twin Peaks of the novel -- an off-kilter, weird place that is deliberately antithetical to realism until Dany finally needs to return to the "real world".

I'm not fascinated by Qarth so much as I am by the narrative that borrows heavily from fairy tale tropes. I am so uninterested in learning more about Qarth as a place that I've realized that I've never asked GRRM a question about it while working on the world book, in fact. I think the place was deliberately meant to be nebulous and mysterious, and I take it in that spirit. As a fellow fan of Jack Vance, I can definitely see a Vancian quality to how Martin depicts Qarth. -- Vance excelled at creating strange, preposterous cultures that would never make any sense if you thought about it... but you're not supposed to.

They abandoned these qualities for a show, but I don't find what they replaced it with compelling... and it is in part because they only abandoned it half way. They've failed to add weight and reality to Qarth while trying to play out a political story that really needs a foundation. I don't think it works at all as is.

[SpaceChampion]

It is a fascinating place, and purposely mysterious. In short, boring Dany chapters made this place "forgettable" whereas I place it as a great mystery of the series. And it is this mystery that makes the further lands - Yi Ti, Asshai-by the shadow even more intriguing.

GRRM has said this is the story of Westeros, not Essos or the rest of the world. I would contend what you and Ran sees as mystery is just actually GRRM trying to be economical about focusing the story on Dany in those scenes rather than spend too much time worldbuilding a location that only matters insofar as its contribution to Dany's story. It was a long book, and maybe GRRM felt fleshing out Dany's story with political happenings in Qarth would have made the book unreasonably long. So (in this conjecture) he went for mystery instead. The HBO show couldn't really do that in an effective way.

I think the place was deliberately meant to be nebulous and mysterious, and I take it in that spirit.

How does one portray that on TV in a few seconds of screen time? You keep pining for the intangential aspects of ASOIAF to be portrayed (like the romanticism of earlier Kingsguard -- which I'm not at all certain was really anything more than the haze of fading memory painting those men in a better light than they were), when TV is really only good for portraying the visceral, given the time constraints.

They abandoned these qualities for a show, but I don't find what they replaced it with compelling... and it is in part because they only abandoned it half way. They've failed to add weight and reality to Qarth while trying to play out a political story that really needs a foundation. I don't think it works at all as is.

I'm not sure if it is uncompelling or just short-shifted like every other scene in this series, except for a handful. Nearly every scene feels too short. The core story is there though, so its still the best adaptation I think we could have hoped for.

One thing i wish they'd done (but I know they couldn't afford the time or the expense) was not stick so rigorously to the POV structure of the books. Not that they are inside the heads of the characters now, but the story might improve with a bit of raven's-eye-view of where their sets are in relation to the establishing shots they do, and so we can see things happening without a presence of any of the main characters, or what is happening before they enter a set. A larger sense of the world, especially of the times and distances involved would be great to have. At least we'll have the DVD extras!

[boojam]

The reason the details of the culture is "ignored" is because it's a deliberate strategy by Martin to heighten the weirdness and enigma of the place. For some readers, this obviously seems to mean that the place is meaningless and unimportant. Fort others, it's an indicator that Dany's narrative is not operating at the same sort of thematic and tonal level as the rest of the narrative. The House of the Undying is simply emblematic of this fact -- it's Martin's Black Lodge, and I guess that makes Qarth the Twin Peaks of the novel -- an off-kilter, weird place that is deliberately antithetical to realism until Dany finally needs to return to the "real world".

I'm not fascinated by Qarth so much as I am by the narrative that borrows heavily from fairy tale tropes. I am so uninterested in learning more about Qarth as a place that I've realized that I've never asked GRRM a question about it while working on the world book, in fact. I think the place was deliberately meant to be nebulous and mysterious, and I take it in that spirit. As a fellow fan of Jack Vance, I can definitely see a Vancian quality to how Martin depicts Qarth. -- Vance excelled at creating strange, preposterous cultures that would never make any sense if you thought about it... but you're not supposed to.

They abandoned these qualities for a show, but I don't find what they replaced it with compelling... and it is in part because they only abandoned it half way. They've failed to add weight and reality to Qarth while trying to play out a political story that really needs a foundation. I don't think it works at all as is.

Now I liked Dany's sojourn in Qarth , but thats because even when George is not doing dramatic narrative, or melodramatic narrative or Sturm und Drang he is such a good writer he makes the prose riveting. (Yeah I know there are those around here who only want Strum and Drang.)

Even though I disagree with the degree of your artistic taste in this matter, as the poster above notes this has to be translated to a visual presentation.

So, it's not fair , how in the world does one translate this kind of prose to something the ordinary HBO viewer wants to see? Unless you happen to be a teleplay writer?

The only hoopla is the House of the Undying in the whole novel.

I think there might be teleplay writers and directors who could have translated this to an entertainment, and as smart as D&D are I don't think this is their kind of thing. They did/dont have time to go looking for the resources.

George is not Jorge Borges but it must have been a challenge for Benioff and Weiss so I give them a 'best effort'.

If anyone knows how to really encapsulate Dany's Qarth chapters in CoK let us know.

It's my personal judgement that D&D have struggled this season with getting CoK into 10 episodes.

[kissdbyfire]

I for one have like the cat the mouse game between Tywin and Arya, been one of the best done dialog sequences in this season.

Catching her at not being a commoner ... loved that...

^^That's from a scene between Roose Bolton and Theon in ADwD.

“M’lord.” Bolton’s lips parted just enough to show a quarter inch of teeth. It might have been a smile.

He did not understand. “My lord? I said—”

“—my lord, when you should have said m’lord. Your tongue betrays your birth with every word you say.

And as much as I love Charles Dance, I don't like this bonding of sorts between Arya and Tywin - it would never have happened. It's one of the changes in character's personalities (for lack of a better word) that I'm really, really struggling with this season.

[boojam]

^^That's from a scene between Roose Bolton and Theon in ADwD.

“M’lord.” Bolton’s lips parted just enough to show a quarter inch of teeth. It might have been a smile.

He did not understand. “My lord? I said—”

“—my lord, when you should have said m’lord. Your tongue betrays your birth with every word you say.

And as much as I love Charles Dance, I don't like this bonding of sorts between Arya and Tywin - it would never have happened. It's one of the changes in character's personalities (for lack of a better word) that I'm really, really struggling with this season.

Ye ADwD, I noticed that. Well lord knows will they get to ADwD?

Well doesn't seem so much like bonding as Tywin having respect for her.

Heck I didn't want see Arya running around washing pots, fetching beer, being pestered by kitchen jerks, and a whole lot of other ordinary stuff, as in the book.

Question is does Tywin know who she is?

Jaqen does , well in the book he does, it's and odd situation, even in the book!

[kissdbyfire]

Yes, excellent point! I didn't want to see Arya scrubbing the steps the whole season either. But my problem is not with changes (in general) as I completely understand and agree that they are absolutely necessary. It's with some where we end up with a character that is different from the book character - specifically, I mean changes like having the Cleftjaw be the one who 'plants' the idea of taking Winterfell to Theon; Arya's prayer is now... Yoren's idea? Why? I mean, really, why? My point being, if I could understand the reason behind these two (there are others), I might accept them a little better. But honestly, I don't think there can be any reason whatsoever to justify Yoren giving Arya that idea...

On a different note, I really like and agree with your observations about the dialogue (some) and the directing.

[boojam]

Yes, excellent point! I didn't want to see Arya scrubbing the steps the whole season either. But my problem is not with changes (in general) as I completely understand and agree that they are absolutely necessary. It's with some where we end up with a character that is different from the book character - specifically, I mean changes like having the Cleftjaw be the one who 'plants' the idea of taking Winterfell to Theon; Arya's prayer is now... Yoren's idea? Why? I mean, really, why? My point being, if I could understand the reason behind these two (there are others), I might accept them a little better. But honestly, I don't think there can be any reason whatsoever to justify Yoren giving Arya that idea...

On a different note, I really like and agree with your observations about the dialogue (some) and the directing.

Of course it's D&D's adaptation.

I thought the thing with Yoren was touching and an improvement over the book.

Sometimes D&D , as great as they are , seem to flub, for reasons only known to them.

For instance the Yara-Asha thing still does not compute with me.

Feeling like they have to make Yara/Asha a clone of her father.... someone said that's in the book, nope I don't remember that.

Killing off Irri, that has a muted butterfly effect that kind of messes up a minor , yet, endearing undercurrent in Dany's story.

[Carey Snow]

Now I liked Dany's sojourn in Qarth , but thats because even when George is not doing dramatic narrative, or melodramatic narrative or Sturm und Drang he is such a good writer he makes the prose riveting. (Yeah I know there are those around here who only want Strum and Drang.) Even though I disagree with the degree of your artistic taste in this matter, as the poster above notes this has to be translated to a visual presentation. So, it's not fair , how in the world does one translate this kind of prose to something the ordinary HBO viewer wants to see? Unless you happen to be a teleplay writer? The only hoopla is the House of the Undying in the whole novel. I think there might be teleplay writers and directors who could have translated this to an entertainment, and as smart as D&D are I don't think this is their kind of thing. They did/dont have time to go looking for the resources. George is not Jorge Borges but it must have been a challenge for Benioff and Weiss so I give them a 'best effort'. If anyone knows how to really encapsulate Dany's Qarth chapters in CoK let us know. It's my personal judgement that D&D have struggled this season with getting CoK into 10 episodes.

I agree 100%. Love the show, but I think it would be a lot better if they just gave up on trying to cram books into seasons but rather just tell as much of the story as seems natural in a 10 show season. There is no real reason why CoK needs to be told in one season.

[protar]

I agree 100%. Love the show, but I think it would be a lot better if they just gave up on trying to cram books into seasons but rather just tell as much of the story as seems natural in a 10 show season. There is no real reason why CoK needs to be told in one season.

They are actually doing that to a degree, they've said they're trying to adapt it as a series, not on a book by book basis. So we'll be getting some SOS stuff in S2. But really they still have to take into account climaxes and such. Even though SOS is the most action packed book it's not that action packed towards the start. So if they'd just gone as far along the story as possible, the last few episodes would fall pretty flat. And for the most part I'd argue that COK does require a whole season. It's just Dany's arc which could be wrapped up in 5 or 6 episodes. Considering the fact that few Unsullied seem enamoured with Dany's arc, it must be quite obvious to outsiders as well that things are being padded out. They would have been better to just give Dany a back seat for this season and have her only appear in 5 or 6 episodes.

[boojam]

They are actually doing that to a degree, they've said they're trying to adapt it as a series, not on a book by book basis. So we'll be getting some SOS stuff in S2. But really they still have to take into account climaxes and such. Even though SOS is the most action packed book it's not that action packed towards the start. So if they'd just gone as far along the story as possible, the last few episodes would fall pretty flat. And for the most part I'd argue that COK does require a whole season. It's just Dany's arc which could be wrapped up in 5 or 6 episodes. Considering the fact that few Unsullied seem enamoured with Dany's arc, it must be quite obvious to outsiders as well that things are being padded out. They would have been better to just give Dany a back seat for this season and have her only appear in 5 or 6 episodes.

I am not in the business , but have a number of writer friends, some are/have been screenplay writers and teleplay writers (from their experiences I would not want to in that business ever). It's no surprise they tell me , even before their screenplay is slaughtered , if it gets that far, that writing adaptations is hell. There are some who have a knack for it.

I always point to John Huston who not only wrote adaptations but directed the films, he had some clunkers, but the list of brilliant adaptations is amazing The Maltese Falcon , The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, The African Queen, ... list goes on and on (I won't mention the clunkers, which seem like journeyman films he wasn't really interested in).

My favorite example for any budding screenwriter is The Man Who Would Be King, the Rudyard Kipling story is a gem but really short. Huston wrote the screenplay and augmented the story by about a half. It , of course, helps to have Sean Connery and Michael Caine as your stars! Huston did not produce it but he directed it, and scene for scene it's a joy to watch.

So the point is it can be done.

I had known Peter Jackson was a competent director, but I did not know he was that good when he did Lord of the Rings.

Now I know he was not the sole screen writer Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens did fantastic work on the films... but the reigns were in Jackson's hands.

I am not a fan of Fellowship of the Ring, seems Tolkien was trying to get his feet as a writer of a rhetoric of fantasy realism , LTOR differs from the Hobbit in many way. I got through it, and then was totally entranced with Two Towers and Return of the King.

So as an adaptation of fantasy Jackson's version of FotR is amazing, and as a film fan I loved it.

I think with SoIaF David Benioff and D. B. Weiss faced with exactly the same problems, except we have GRRM's hybrid 'historical novels'- laced with fantasy lite and fantasy (kind of) heavy, sort of weird animal.

Season one came off as a gem, in part because the cast of characters and settings (while numerous) were manageable.

Now we will have to see what S3 and S4 bring, but , it's just my personal opinion, Benioff and Weiss have struggled with the source material for S2, and saying it's a global adaption of ASoIaF is ok ... but it's got to work ... and for the most part I give them a B for effort. Yet I almost see that they need help, more eyes , more minds, ... something. As if like a good novelist with a great editor they need to be red-lined by someone who says 'fix this'...'your messing with your own internal logic and aesthetics'... 'wouldn't THIS work better'....

I don't know how one fixes GRRM's elaboration in a 10 hour story, maybe it can't be done.

[protar]

I am not in the business , but have a number of writer friends, some are/have been screenplay writers and teleplay writers (from their experiences I would not want to in that business ever). It's no surprise they tell me , even before their screenplay is slaughtered , if it gets that far, that writing adaptations is hell. There are some who have a knack for it.

I always point to John Huston who not only wrote adaptations but directed the films, he had some clunkers, but the list of brilliant adaptations is amazing The Maltese Falcon , The Treasure of the Sierra Madre, The African Queen, ... list goes on and on (I won't mention the clunkers, which seem like journeyman films he wasn't really interested in).

My favorite example for any budding screenwriter is The Man Who Would Be King, the Rudyard Kipling story is a gem but really short. Huston wrote the screenplay and augmented the story by about a half. It , of course, helps to have Sean Connery and Michael Caine as your stars! Huston did not produce it but he directed it, and scene for scene it's a joy to watch.

So the point is it can be done.

I had known Peter Jackson was a competent director, but I did not know he was that good when he did Lord of the Rings.

Now I know he was not the sole screen writer Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens did fantastic work on the films... but the reigns were in Jackson's hands.

I am not a fan of Fellowship of the Ring, seems Tolkien was trying to get his feet as a writer of a rhetoric of fantasy realism , LTOR differs from the Hobbit in many way. I got through it, and then was totally entranced with Two Towers and Return of the King.

So as an adaptation of fantasy Jackson's version of FotR is amazing, and as a film fan I loved it.

I think with SoIaF David Benioff and D. B. Weiss faced with exactly the same problems, except we have GRRM's hybrid 'historical novels'- laced with fantasy lite and fantasy (kind of) heavy, sort of weird animal.

Season one came off as a gem, in part because the cast of characters and settings (while numerous) were manageable.

Now we will have to see what S3 and S4 bring, but , it's just my personal opinion, Benioff and Weiss have struggled with the source material for S2, and saying it's a global adaption of ASoIaF is ok ... but it's got to work ... and for the most part I give them a B for effort. Yet I almost see that they need help, more eyes , more minds, ... something. As if like a good novelist with a great editor they need to be red-lined by someone who says 'fix this'...'your messing with your own internal logic and aesthetics'... 'wouldn't THIS work better'....

I don't know how one fixes GRRM's elaboration in a 10 hour story, maybe it can't be done.

I think it could have been done better if only D+D had managed to prioritise which characters to focus on. Obviously in TV you can't have major characters dissapearing for ages but I don't see anything wrong with giving certain characters like Sansa, Dany, Bran etc smaller arcs. Those characters really don't have much to do in COK but they have some great scenes. So D+D should have just let some characters take a back seat and focus on the main plot, while also making the high points of the smaller arcs count.

[boojam]

I think it could have been done better if only D+D had managed to prioritise which characters to focus on. Obviously in TV you can't have major characters dissapearing for ages but I don't see anything wrong with giving certain characters like Sansa, Dany, Bran etc smaller arcs. Those characters really don't have much to do in COK but they have some great scenes. So D+D should have just let some characters take a back seat and focus on the main plot, while also making the high points of the smaller arcs count.

You know the elephant in the room is HBO.

Bless their hearts they took a big chance on this.

The top management does not get interviewed very often ... last we heard... they really like the show... and I am guessing they done well on their investment.

GOT has added US/Canada a steady extra million viewers (subscribers all , I guess?) this season.

If they had a news conference I would ask just how well would the show have to do to get , say, 12 episodes?

Two , three, four million above the first season?

For an expensive show I don't know their model.

Still a mystery how well they did in the rest of the world, didn't even see the UK numbers this week.

(All I see is how much it gets pirated.)