Tyrek Lannister

[sebitapincha]

Debatable. Holding onto all those troops directly might be a smart move for the Crown, finally making it the single-largest force in the land.

Tommen doesn't have to be the Lord of DS, SE, and CR himself for those troops to be in direct control of the Crown.

[Colonel Green]

Tommen doesn't have to be the Lord of DS, SE, and CR himself for those troops to be in direct control of the Crown.

Yes he does. If he names somebody else as lord, those people will consolidate their position much as the other lords paramount do.

[tze]

The fact that Cersei inherited Casterly Rock before Kevan shows a daughter of a man's body inherits before his brothers in the Westerlands.

A man's daughter ostensibly inherits before his brother everywhere. In practice, however, vague inheritance "laws", coupled with widespread misogyny, mean that that daughter will likely find herself in trouble should her uncle decide to stake a claim. Cersei inherited Casterly Rock because none of her male relatives objected. Kevan could have chosen to make a play for the Rock, and if he had, Cersei's position would have been far from secure.

Saying Littlefinger has him or he died in Braavos doesn't answer the question of why target him.

To foment chaos in the future. This is one major reason why I think "Littlefinger has him" makes more sense than "Varys has him", actually. Varys needs an amenable Lord of Casterly Rock to help stabilize Aegon's reign, but he already has that in Tyrion. Littlefinger, on the other hand, requires chaos to thrive. (And Tyrek was 13 years old when he vanished---and do we have precedent for Littlefinger grabbing a 13-year-old highborn heir, intending on using that heir's relative youth and fears to manipulate her?)

As Jaime pointed out, "Tyrek had served King Robert as a squire, side by side with Lancel. Knowledge could be more valuable than gold, more deadly than a dagger." Tyrek might very well have seen something he shouldn't have. It's possible that Tyrek was convinced (either pre or post-kidnapping, if in fact he was grabbed) that he was in danger from his own family members because he "knew too much", which would make him amenable to some anti-Lannister plans. Moreover, his youth and his vulnerability (as Tyrek's father was long since dead, he didn't really have any strong figure he could rely on to protect him from the older Lannisters' potential future wrath) would make him a prime target for manipulation. (It's also possible he was angry with the other Lannisters for being married off to a baby---I doubt the "Wet Nurse" nickname filled him with glee.) And when he vanished, Tyrek was way down the line of succession, which means grabbing him in order to successfully seize and hold the Rock would have been a chancy prospect at best. That could indicate that his claim wasn't the primary motivation for his disappearance, or it could indicate that putting Tyrek in control of the Rock wasn't necessarily the end goal.

When he vanished, Tyrek was (potentially) in a position to cause chaos within House Lannister on a number of fronts: he could be manipulated into making a play for the Rock once Tywin inevitably died, and he could potentially be used to bring to light any number of dirty Lannister secrets (Robert's murder, the incest, Cersei and Lancel, etc.), depending on what he knew. What's important to note is that It doesn't necessarily matter if Tyrek succeeds in anything here. Logically, you don't grab the guy a dozen spots down in the succession if you truly need him to succeed to the title (as Varys would, were he the culprit), you grab him because you want to ensure that no matter what happens, the transition of power in House Lannister doesn't go smoothly. If Tyrek managed to take the Rock, Littlefinger would benefit. But if Tyrek failed to take the Rock, then Littlefinger could use the chaos of the situation to manipulate the other Lannisters to whatever personal benefit he desired. No matter what happens, Littlefinger stands to benefit. If Tyrek knew some of the Lannisters' secrets, Littlefinger could use his knowledge and/or testimony to throw the Lannister power base into chaos, allowing Littlefinger to sidle in and manipulate that chaos to his benefit. It doesn't necessarily matter if Tyrek's claims are believed. All that matters, in the end, is that Tyrek be used as a tool to ensure that Lannister unity and the Lannister power base are disrupted and chaos is achieved.

[VicsFieryHand]

Ahh Baelish, the Joker of Westeros, but where is batman?

[Glr99]

My theory is that Varys did kidnap Tyrek and is holding him at Illyrio's palace in pentos though there are a few possibilities as to why...

A) When Aegon becomes king, they'll need A lord of Casterly rock. Tyrek has a good claim and is of an age with Aegon (Friendship!) therefore Aegon may be inclined to keep him as Lord of the Westerland.

B) Tyrion is their main aim, but Tyrek is their insurance- If Dany/Aegon decides to lop of Tyrion's head. They still have Tyrek on their side. I think it would be easier to kill an ugly dwarf that is the son of Tywin evil Lannister than a sweet innocent squire with curly hair.

Who knows maybe Dany will have sex with him, it seems to be what she does with everyone else.

C) Tyrek knows stuff- Maybe MAD Cersei planned to kill Tyrek seeing as she couldn't seduce him into silence like lancel. Varys planned for Tyrek to become important later, but realised he was on the not-so-queen regent's hit list, so decided to get Tyrek out of there.

[Arianne of Sunspear]

The impression that I get from the Cersei/Casterly Rock situation is not that Cersei has inherited the Rock, but that Tommen has inherited the Rock but is too young to run it effectively, so Cersei is only really castellan/regent of the Rock until he comes of age. She doesn't think of it like this because she thinks she's the most important thing in the world; the Rock belongs to Tommen for the same reason the Crown belongs to Tommen. Its akin to how Luwin looks to Catelyn after Ned leaves; if she had been of more stable mind at the time, then Robb wouldn't have had to stand up and take command.

Cersei just thinks she's Lady of the Rock, but actually Tommen is the Lord of Casterly Rock.

Any citations for that statement despite the textual evidence to the contrary? Like, how Kevan addresses her as Lady of Casterly Rock, she makes actual governing decisions and appointments to other family members that are, you know, followed... which would suggest that the other Lannisters acknowledge her authority and it''s not all a private delusion of Cersei's?

Do you recall reading the whole Alys Karstark episode in which everyone agrees that it's a lord's daughter before his brother, although nothing stops an unscrupulous uncle from trying except to do exactly what Alys did, appeal to her overlord to ensure her inheritance? Or how Lady Arywn Oakheart is lady regnant in her own right despite having grown sons, Lady Anya Waynwood is lady regnant in her own despite grown sons, same for Lady Alysanne Lefford, how Eddara Tallhart is the proclaimed Lady of Tallhart after her father even though she has living uncles, how Jonelle Cerwyn became Lady of Cerwyn Castel after her father and brother, why Brienne is Lord Selwyn's heir to Tarth, how Catelyn was raised as heiress to Riverrun (until Edmure was born) even though Hoster's brother Brynden was right there the whole time? Lady Shella Whent inherited after her father, Lord Whent.

And here's one that happened real time in the books... a mother to daughter to sister succession. Lady Tanda of Stokeworth was *the* Stokeworth since she retained her position until her death, at which time her Stokeworth daughter, Lady Faleyse *Stokeworth* became the new lady even though she was married to Ser Balman *Byrch*.When Lady Falyse..err... dies, her sister Lollys Stokeworth becomes the new Lady Stokeworth, despite her marriage.

[Bohemund]

Tyrek Lannister has always been one of the very minor characters that has stuck in my head. I really want to believe he will appear again, but I feel that there is so many other storylines GRRM has to work on that he will not bring up Tyrek again. My best guess is that we won't see him again, but Littlefinger/Varys will mention him as how they got information for their next big scheme or plot. I hope to see him again, but ultimately he will probably play a very samll role if one at all.

[swifty77]

So what if Young Griff aka Aegon Targaryen is actually Tyrek in disguise. Their age is roughly the same and if Varys did snatch him during the riots it is plausible to pose him as Aegon. The only thing I can think of is that Tyrion and Young Griff got close but Tyrion wasn't thinking to be looking for Tyrek, was he?

[Valonqar_]

So what if Young Griff aka Aegon Targaryen is actually Tyrek in disguise. Their age is roughly the same and if Varys did snatch him during the riots it is plausible to pose him as Aegon. The only thing I can think of is that Tyrion and Young Griff got close but Tyrion wasn't thinking to be looking for Tyrek, was he?

The only problem with that is, that if young Griff is not truly Aegon, then he has been pretended to be so since he was extremely young for Jon Con really believes that he is the true Aegon

[WinterfellDownAndCantGetUp]

I definitely think tze has the right of it - Littlefinger makes more sense.

Of course, Varys didn't know about the Purple Wedding, etc. at the time of the bread riots, so he wouldn't have anticipated having Tyrion in Aegon's corner. Since that's the case, Varys still could have kidnapped Tyrek, but then you run into the problem of being far down the inheritance list again. It definitely makes more sense to me that LF is behind this.

And separately, FWIW the appendix to AFFC lists Cersei as "Lady of Casterly Rock." That suggests that upon Tywin's death, given that Tyrion had already been found guilty and sentenced, Cersei automatically inherited.

[The Poster Who Was Promisd]

Intentionally starting a riot that very nearly kills a lot of important people doesn't seem very plausible to me, and the notion that it was done just to get Tyrek seems frankly incredible. I could see someone seizing the opportunity, but that riot was too potentially dangerous to have been intentional, IMO.

[Mrs_Darcy]

I believe it is stated that except for Dorne, the 7 kingdoms are strictly male inheritance.

But Harrold's mom cannot be heir to the Vale.

No prob, Tommen is still kicking.

Currently Tyrion should be lord of the Rock - now that Tywin who flouted laws of succession to screw him out of it is dead.

Tommen is not yet of age. He cant make the decision to revoke Tyrion's right to Casterly Rock.

Has anyone actually iinherited in this way in the books? Without evidence we cant assume anything.

Robert didnt take the name Targaryen. It is said that he had some claim through the Targs, so using that name would actually have been helpful to hide the fact that he actually TOOK the throne.

Are there Ladies Paramount? WTH does that mean? Margaery is queen. Cersei was Regent until her downfall and nothing else.

Lords Paramount have rule over several houses. If you rule the kingdom, you are above a Lord Paramount.

That is not true. We have several cases in different regions than Dorne, where a house is ruled by a female, in spite of her having grown up male children. (Lady Waynwood, Lady Oakheart)

Women can even inherit Lord Paramountships when there are more distant male relatives around, as the example of Cersei becoming the head of House Lannister after her father's death shows.

[Nerevanin]

I think he maybe already appeared, disguised as another character. It must be a character that couldn't be met by a Lannister (Cersei, Tyrion, Jaime) or by Littlefinger (assuming that has nothing to do with him), Sansa and Arya and Barristan (who might recognize him, especially Sansa and Barristan). A perfect place where to hide is the Wall but we can assume that Stannis would recognize him as well. That eliminates pretty much everything but Brienne, Bran, Sam, Iron Islands, Dorne and of course the prologue / epilogue characteres but Kevan.

Could Tyrek be kidnapped to be future husband for someone? If Sansa was a target too, as previously suggested in this thread, maybe they were meant to marry for a purpose.

I also have an idea that maybe he is held somewhere by Doran who always wanted to revenge his sister Elia. Doran claims in a chapter that he has friends or allies in KL so it's possible, isn't it?

So what if Young Griff aka Aegon Targaryen is actually Tyrek in disguise. Their age is roughly the same and if Varys did snatch him during the riots it is plausible to pose him as Aegon. The only thing I can think of is that Tyrion and Young Griff got close but Tyrion wasn't thinking to be looking for Tyrek, was he?

I had this idea too but don't forget that Tyrion examined fAegon very closely, he would surely recognize him if he was Tyrek.

[Lost Melnibonean]

This could be one of those things that never gets confirmed if Cersei had him whacked. Would she have relied on Varys to do the deed?

[Nerevanin]

This could be one of those things that never gets confirmed if Cersei had him whacked. Would she have relied on Varys to do the deed?

I think Cersei would rely rather on Baelish than on Varys. But Petyr wasn't in town back then. And I'd say that relying on any of them in such a thing is too dangerous. But well, Cersei's no kind of mastermind so everything's possible when it comes to her. :)

[Lost Melnibonean]

I think Cersei would rely rather on Baelish than on Varys. But Petyr wasn't in town back then. And I'd say that relying on any of them in such a thing is too dangerous. But well, Cersei's no kind of mastermind so everything's possible when it comes to her. :)

Petyr is actually a very good possibility. He may not have been in the city at the time, but his agents were. And there is reason to suspect that Petyr may have been involved in "encouraging" Robert's death. When when Robert renamed The Ned as Hand Littlefinger may have decided to remove the Ned's principal backer from the board by advising Cersei of a monstrous boar...

"Is there word of the king?" Ned demanded. "Just how long does Robert intend to hunt?"

"Given his preferences, I believe he'd stay in the forest until you and the queen both die of old age," Lord Petyr replied with a faint smile. "Lacking that, I imagine he'll return as soon as he's killed something. They found the white hart, it seems . . . or rather, what remained of it. Some wolves found it first, and left His Grace scarcely more than a hoof and a horn. Robert was in a fury, until he heard talk of some monstrous boar deeper in the forest. Then nothing would do but he must have it. Prince Joffrey returned this morning, with the Royces, Ser Balon Swann, and some twenty others of the party. The rest are still with the king."

[Nerevanin]

Petyr is actually a very good possibility. He may not have been in the city at the time, but his agents were. And there is reason to suspect that Petyr may have been involved in "encouraging" Robert's death. When when Robert renamed The Ned as Hand Littlefinger may have decided to remove the Ned's principal backer from the board by advising Cersei of a monstrous boar...

Everything is possible but I think we (the readers) are way too quick to blame everything on Petyr Baelish (but I admit that I'm 100% convinced that it was he who sent the catspaw assassin and I'm fairly sure that he influenced Joffrey to execute Ned). I'd say that if someone kidnapped Tyrek for a reason, it's most likely Varys, then no one for a long time, and then it could be maybe Doran. It's only a speculation, I have no supporting evidence for it but a thought that I can't see a reason why would Littlefinger bother with creating a riot in King's Landing (don't forget that the fire most likely destroyed some of his brothels) to get some Lannister boy. I'd say it's not really his style, but for a reason it scream "Varys and his little birds" to me.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Everything is possible but I think we (the readers) are way too quick to blame everything on Petyr Baelish (but I admit that I'm 100% convinced that it was he who sent the catspaw assassin and I'm fairly sure that he influenced Joffrey to execute Ned). I'd say that if someone kidnapped Tyrek for a reason, it's most likely Varys, then no one for a long time, and then it could be maybe Doran. It's only a speculation, I have no supporting evidence for it but a thought that I can't see a reason why would Littlefinger bother with creating a riot in King's Landing (don't forget that the fire most likely destroyed some of his brothels) to get some Lannister boy. I'd say it's not really his style, but for a reason it scream "Varys and his little birds" to me.

Lancel was expected to get Robert drunck before facing the boar. Tyrek was with him. Cersei coopeted Lancel, but apparently not Tyrek. Jaime wondered if Cersei had him killed to silence him. She may have arranged it through Littlefinger if he were part of the plot, and Littlefinger, aggain assuming he was part of the plot, may have decided to silence Tyrek himself.

[Nerevanin]

Lancel was expected to get Robert drunck before facing the boar. Tyrek was with him. Cersei coopeted Lancel, but apparently not Tyrek. Jaime wondered if Cersei had him killed to silence him. She may have arranged it through Littlefinger if he were part of the plot, and Littlefinger, aggain assuming he was part of the plot, may have decided to silence Tyrek himself.

Wouldn't it be a little late to get rid of Tyrek during the riot? If someone was afraid that Tyrek would reveal the truth, they probably would have silenced him immediately. Tyrek would have to do something that would shake the other people's trust in him.

Like, it's possible that they asked LF to get rid of Tyrek, but what's the use of someone who isn't present so he can't plan it that perfectly and who can't react due to his absence to any unexpected circumstance.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Wouldn't it be a little late to get rid of Tyrek during the riot? If someone was afraid that Tyrek would reveal the truth, they probably would have silenced him immediately. Tyrek would have to do something that would shake the other people's trust in him.

Like, it's possible that they asked LF to get rid of Tyrek, but what's the use of someone who isn't present so he can't plan it that perfectly and who can't react due to his absence to any unexpected circumstance.

Well it was still pretty soon after the deed was done and presumably Tyrek was in on it or complicit. No need to whack him right away. Just one of those dead men will not betray any secrets kinds of things like Dontos.