(Book Spoilers) Arya and Tywin, what if........

[Rickon is FIERCE]

Leaving weasel soup, "Is your sword sharp, Jon Snow?" and Arya's murderous escape out would be travesties. Especially the last two...both necessary experiences for the people Jon and Arya become.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

i am a bit bored with their weekly chat in that chamber. Get out of the castle and change things up. We have seen enough of them in this setting.

:agree:

[Man-without-a-flag]

Im new here but feel compelled to vent some of my thoughts so bear with me.

When Tywin tells Arya to eat the mutton dinner and when just after she takes her first bite of what looks like a potato and Tywin asks her if she eats much food, her reply of "I eat alot", its the way she says it actually had me in knots with laughter. The chemistry between show Tywin and Arya is electric. I LOVED that whole scene.

I love the books but the deviation from certain story lines and even characters is worrying.

For all that I still watch this show with the same enthusiasm I havent had since watchin the Sopranos for the first time. I LOVE it.

Dont hate too much please, im new here :cool4:

[zippypoodle]

No. This is Twyin we're talking about. A guy who tricked his king, ravaged the city and purposefully murdered two innocent children. He doesn't give two shits for honour.

No, he cares only about the honor of his family. Not necessarily whether his family is honorable, but that it is respected and feared.

[bardgal]

Let's look at the facts:

• Arya Stark is an 11 year-old little girl of noble birth.
  
• Tywin has never seen Arya Stark, so he has no idea what she looks like.
  
• Tywin has no reason to care what Arya Stark looks like.
  
• Tywin Lannister has no reason to think that everyone at King's Landing is completely incompetent.
  
• The last time Littlefinger saw Arya, she was clean, had long hair, and dressed as a girl.
  

Who knows for sure (that we know of) that Arya is missing?

• Cersei
  
• Tyrion
  
• Joffrey
  

Who has the vagina to tell Tywin Lannister that one of their key hostages they have to secure Jamie's release, an 11 year-old little girl, has gone missing?

• NO ONE.
  

Sure, Varys probably knows, and Littlefinger might know, but they were also both in King's Landing when she disappeared, so both are responsible for allowing it to happen, which means they would be strung up without hesitation by Tywin himself if he knew she was gone.

Let's say Littlefinger does know she's missing, then recognizes her at Harrenhall.... what does he do? Even if he grabs her, and takes her into custody, what does he say to Tywin? "We've been searching all of Westeros for this girl....." The problems that opens up for anyone relaying the information to Tywin is exponential:

• How did she go missing?
  
• WHEN did she go missing?
  
• Why the frak didn't ANYONE TELL ME?
  

I think it's pretty safe to say that no one has told Tywin that Arya is missing, so he therefore has zero reason to suspect she is anywhere other than King's Landing. He certainly would never imagine she has made it all the way from King's Landing to Harrenhall disguised as a commoner without ending up dead.

This week Tywin is going to get a raven about Stannis' eminent arrival in King's Landing with his fleet, and high tail it south, probably with some able bodies to help out. Arya will name Tywin as #3 adding the "I need him dead right now" we saw in the preview. Jaqen will try, but Tywin will leave before he gets the chance.

If Vargo arrives at Harrenhall with some Northern prisoners around this time, it will set up Weasel Soup, Jaqen's alternate plan, and Arya's escape. Tywin will go ballistic after the Battle of Blackwater when he eventually finds out Arya is missing from King's Landing.

[The Last Reyne]

Who has the vagina to tell Tywin Lannister that one of their key hostages they have to secure Jamie's release, an 11 year-old little girl, has gone missing?

• NO ONE.

:agree: LOL!!!

[summer_stark]

Littlefinger might know, but they were also both in King's Landing when she disappeared, so both are responsible for allowing it to happen, which means they would be strung up without hesitation by Tywin himself if he knew she was gone. Let's say Littlefinger does know she's missing, then recognizes her at Harrenhall.... what does he do? Even if he grabs her, and takes her into custody, what does he say to Tywin? "We've been searching all of Westeros for this girl....." The problems that opens up for anyone relaying the information to Tywin is exponential:

• [*]How did she go missing? [*]WHEN did she go missing? [*]Why the frak didn't ANYONE TELL ME?

I don't think this makes a lot of sense. if LF knew it was arya, his reason for not telling tywin would have more to do w/his own interests than thinking he'd be in trouble with tywin -- they had just started their meeting, he couldve said he was going to tell him or better yet thought he knew -- and how would he be blamed? he's not a guard or someone who would be charged with securing anyone. the kingsguard and lannister guards were sent to take her. can you imagine the consequences if tywin finds out and LF knew but didn't tell him? i think it's much more likely that LF knows and will use it for his own advantage, or doesnt know all.

[Pellaeon]

I don't think this makes a lot of sense. if LF knew it was arya, his reason for not telling tywin would have more to do w/his own interests than thinking he'd be in trouble with tywin -- they had just started their meeting, he couldve said he was going to tell him or better yet thought he knew -- and how would he be blamed? he's not a guard or someone who would be charged with securing anyone. the kingsguard and lannister guards were sent to take her. can you imagine the consequences if tywin finds out and LF knew but didn't tell him? i think it's much more likely that LF knows and will use it for his own advantage, or doesnt know all.

At the moment Tywin know Arya is missing he will count 1 and 2 together and this won't be nice for LF if Tywin suspicuise he recocnize Arya at harrenhal

[StarkBlack21]

Have you guys forgotten what you have watched? If Littlefinger knows Arya is missing? Littlefinger knows! Him and Cersei had a whole discussion about missing Arya! Cersei told Littlefinger explicitly to fin Arya.

[summer_stark]

Have you guys forgotten what you have watched? If Littlefinger knows Arya is missing? Littlefinger knows! Him and Cersei had a whole discussion about missing Arya! Cersei told Littlefinger explicitly to fin Arya.

i was talking about whether LF knew tywins cupbearer was arya, not whether LF knew she was missing. although i did re-read bargdal's post and she did say "if" LF knew arya was missing -- but i for one missed that part lol. but yea, obv varys knows -- he told ned. and obv LF knows, cersei charged him with finding her. everyone at court knows she's missing. she's supposed to be their hostage. lol.

[Jerritus]

I think they are making Arya and Tywin "friends", so it makes more sense as to why Arya doesn't have Tywin killed by Jaqen.

[bardgal]

Arya didn't go "missing" until after Ned's death, so how could Varys tell Ned? Varys only talks of Sansa when he visits him in the black cell.

I'm perfectly fine playing the Blonde Card, there's lots of times I have the memory of a goldfish. :drunk: When was this scene where Cersei specifically tasked Littlefinger with finding Arya? I want to go back and watch it. All I can find is Tyrion telling him to go find Catelyn at the Stormlands, and from there, he went to Harrenhall, but so far, he's never gone back to King's Landing yet. So help me out. What episode did this take place? I hate when I don't remember something. :blush:

And even if "the whole court knows Arya is missing", (which I don't see why that info would be spread far and wide, it only makes everyone look incompetent), who exactly tells Tywin? It's fine the guards knowing, since they're looking for her obviously, but do you really see the Goldcloaks and the King's Guard going around talking about how the Lannisters misplaced an 11 year-old girl? It makes them look just as bad since they were sent to take her when she was practicing with Florel.

[summer_stark]

Arya didn't go "missing" until after Ned's death, so how could Varys tell Ned? Varys only talks of Sansa when he visits him in the black cell. I'm perfectly fine playing the Blonde Card, there's lots of times I have the memory of a goldfish. :drunk: When was this scene where Cersei specifically tasked Littlefinger with finding Arya? I want to go back and watch it. All I can find is Tyrion telling him to go find Catelyn at the Stormlands, and from there, he went to Harrenhall, but so far, he's never gone back to King's Landing yet. So help me out. What episode did this take place? I hate when I don't remember something. :blush: And even if "the whole court knows Arya is missing", (which I don't see why that info would be spread far and wide, it only makes everyone look incompetent), who exactly tells Tywin? It's fine the guards knowing, since they're looking for her obviously, but do you really see the Goldcloaks and the King's Guard going around talking about how the Lannisters misplaced an 11 year-old girl? It makes them look just as bad since they were sent to take her when she was practicing with Florel.

nope. arya goes missing when ned is captured and put in the black cells. varys talks of sansa. ned asks about arya and he says, no one knows, not even my little birds could find her.

the episode re: cersei asking LF to find arya is one of the first episodes -- maybe even the first episode of the season, after tyrion chastises her for "losing" arya. cersei asks LF in the same scene where she does that "power is power" thing and has the guards grab him and says to kill him, oh wait i changed my mind.

and the stuff about tywin knowing is sheer speculation -- but as another poster pointed out, it's not exactly unknown around kings landing -- at least at court, and there are plenty of people at court -- not to mention the fact that as that other poster said, tyrion has no incentive for not telling tywin -- it's not like he would protect cersei, and it's not like it could ever be his fault, since he was w/tywin when it happened -- so that's why some people think tywin must know, at the very least, that arya is missing.

however, i'm not sure i buy it since if he does know arya is missing, it makes less sense that he doesnt know his cupbearer is arya (which, again, is up for debate, but i doubt he wouldn't have done anything if he knew who she was -- though maybe he does something in the next episode b/f he leaves for blackwater, but i sort of doubt it). i think he will find out when he gets to kings landing and probably then make the connection. which might be what prompts her escape, since there probably isnt enough time for any northern lords to scare her into leaving.

[Admiral Bolton]

They have already made Tywin enough of a nice-guy on the TV show, this would be one step too far.

[bardgal]

nope. arya goes missing when ned is captured and put in the black cells. varys talks of sansa. ned asks about arya and he says, no one knows, not even my little birds could find her. the episode re: cersei asking LF to find arya is one of the first episodes -- maybe even the first episode of the season, after tyrion chastises her for "losing" arya. cersei asks LF in the same scene where she does that "power is power" thing and has the guards grab him and says to kill him, oh wait i changed my mind. and the stuff about tywin knowing is sheer speculation -- but as another poster pointed out, it's not exactly unknown around kings landing -- at least at court, and there are plenty of people at court -- not to mention the fact that as that other poster said, tyrion has no incentive for not telling tywin -- it's not like he would protect cersei, and it's not like it could ever be his fault, since he was w/tywin when it happened -- so that's why some people think tywin must know, at the very least, that arya is missing. however, i'm not sure i buy it since if he does know arya is missing, it makes less sense that he doesnt know his cupbearer is arya (which, again, is up for debate, but i doubt he wouldn't have done anything if he knew who she was -- though maybe he does something in the next episode b/f he leaves for blackwater, but i sort of doubt it). i think he will find out when he gets to kings landing and probably then make the connection. which might be what prompts her escape, since there probably isnt enough time for any northern lords to scare her into leaving.

Thank you! Like I need an excuse to re-watch these eps for the ridiculousth time! :drunk:

[Fengari]

I seriously don't know what to think of this.

I do not see any reason why Tyrion would not have sent Tywin word that Arya is missing. When he learned it himself, he had just been sent to KL by his father to try and fix the stupid things his sister had done. This, for him, was a new situation: his father apparently valuing his wits above his sisters. He also obviously realised that Cersei losing Arya too would be another thing to decrease Tywins idea of his daughter, he told her himself. So that alone should be reason to send his father a message, just to reinforce his newly found status with his father. Add to that the facts that by not telling, he would most likely become subject of Tywins wrath along with his sister when he finally finds out, and that having Tywins men know to be on the lookout for runaway Arya would be a great help in finding her again, I just don't see how he could have remained silent about it.

I don't buy the 'this information is too sensitive to entrust to a raven or messenger'-argument. They send sensitive war-related messages all the time. Hell, they even send their negotiators into enemy camps without any escort to speak of. (granted, the chance of ambush while using a teleportation device is small :) )

So if Tywin knows Arya is missing, it would be really strange if he hasn't put 2 and 2 together by now. I really think he should be smart enough to do that.

But, if he knows, why hasn't he secured her as a hostage? I can buy (with a good dose of suspension of disbelief) the theory that he thought keeping her as a cupbearer was enough to both keep her imprisoned and safe (the guards likely have orders not to let anyone of the captured commonfolk out of the gates, otherwise why would Gendry still be hanging around?), and it gives hem knowledge about both her and the Starks in general (know thine enemy). But the assassination of Armory Lorch should certainly have changed that: that makes it clear that there are enemies within Harrenhall, enemies that could help Arya escape or help her get the information she gained from hearing his war counsels to Robb's army. So it does not make sense to me that he would still keep her as a cupbearer/foodtaster after that.

So any way you turn it, either Tywin or Tyrion have made a mistake that is uncharacteristic.

I'm wondering where this is going now. Some speculation from the preview, we see:

- a man being hanged with Arya watching: who is this man? It could be another of Tywin's men, but the clothes look different. The red robe made me think of the red priest, but he's still needed I think. Could it be another member of the brotherhood without banners? Maybe they will be the prisoners Arya helps to free, and she escapes with them, thus jumping ahead to a different part of her journey?

- Tywin and his counsel, 'We'll ride at nightfall', followed by Tywin and the hound mounting. I assume they got the news that Stannis is closing in on KL, and are riding to the rescue.

- Arya, presumably to Jaqen: 'I need him dead right now'. Obviously her third death, but who did she name?

Though I would love to see weasel soup, as long as there are no prisoners to save there is no need for it for furthering the plot. They do need to have her name Jaqen though, as it is what makes him realise she has FM potential (in my opinion), leading to giving her the coin, which is quite essential. I am starting to think that will be used to help her escape instead. Like others have said, I liked that she did that all by herself, but as long as she does something badass during that escape and isn't just carried to safety by Jaqen, I'm OK with it. Maybe the soup scene can be brought in with guards by the gates instead of guards of the cells.

[Rickon is FIERCE]

I seriously don't know what to think of this.

I do not see any reason why Tyrion would not have sent Tywin word that Arya is missing. When he learned it himself, he had just been sent to KL by his father to try and fix the stupid things his sister had done. This, for him, was a new situation: his father apparently valuing his wits above his sisters. He also obviously realised that Cersei losing Arya too would be another thing to decrease Tywins idea of his daughter, he told her himself. So that alone should be reason to send his father a message, just to reinforce his newly found status with his father. Add to that the facts that by not telling, he would most likely become subject of Tywins wrath along with his sister when he finally finds out, and that having Tywins men know to be on the lookout for runaway Arya would be a great help in finding her again, I just don't see how he could have remained silent about it.

I don't buy the 'this information is too sensitive to entrust to a raven or messenger'-argument. They send sensitive war-related messages all the time. Hell, they even send their negotiators into enemy camps without any escort to speak of. (granted, the chance of ambush while using a teleportation device is small :) )

So if Tywin knows Arya is missing, it would be really strange if he hasn't put 2 and 2 together by now. I really think he should be smart enough to do that.

But, if he knows, why hasn't he secured her as a hostage? I can buy (with a good dose of suspension of disbelief) the theory that he thought keeping her as a cupbearer was enough to both keep her imprisoned and safe (the guards likely have orders not to let anyone of the captured commonfolk out of the gates, otherwise why would Gendry still be hanging around?), and it gives hem knowledge about both her and the Starks in general (know thine enemy). But the assassination of Armory Lorch should certainly have changed that: that makes it clear that there are enemies within Harrenhall, enemies that could help Arya escape or help her get the information she gained from hearing his war counsels to Robb's army. So it does not make sense to me that he would still keep her as a cupbearer/foodtaster after that.

So any way you turn it, either Tywin or Tyrion have made a mistake that is uncharacteristic.

My thoughts exactly. :agree:

[1234567]

Also the major butterfly effect put in motion if Tywin later realises it's Arya, is that he would have sent men after her. She is capable of getting to and surviving in Harrenhal, then he would not just leave her as a ticking time bomb moving North or to any other relatives.

[sarahstitcher]

Tywins is probably going to set out for Kings Landing next episode. so I think that he'll leave, Arya escapes, he arrives and hears that Arya is missing and realizes she was right under his nose.

I hope they go this route, because it would be in keeping with the books... there are so many times in the books, where one character knows something, but doesn't, or isn't able to communicate it to another character who is making a choice that would be different with more information.

[Rollo Tomasi]

What if D&D were to switch things up in the series and have Tywin reveal to Arya the he knows who she is. Slightly unrealistic, but hear me out. We know that Jamie will be released by Catelyn Stark at some and it's been hinted that it will be this season, we also know that Tywin has spies within the northern ranks, so it's likely that when Jamie escapes, word will get back to him at Harrenhall. Once this has been revealed it is possible that out of a sense of honour Tywin will reveal to Arya he knows who she is and let her escape the castle quietly and peacefully. Tywins a smart man and he knows enough about his cup barer to put two in two together, he knows she fled Kings Landing by posing as boy with the nights watch recruits, knows she is well educated, a Northerner and strongly suspects her to be highborn, he is also aware of the love she holds for her father who passed away. So it is possible that he either suspects or has deduced that she is a Stark. It's true that he thinks both Stark girls are in Kings Landing, but it's unlikely that he wouldnt rule out the possibility however small, he is very interested in Arya and this could be the reason why, it's not as if she is going anywhere, she is as much a prisoner as a servant as she would be a highborn hostage. It's also been noted by several forum members that in an upcoming scene with Arya and Tywin, he does something that changes her mind on him, now we know they have had a few chats so far and Arya still wants to stick a knife through the back of his throat, so it's still to come. Personally I think it would be a great inclusion, lets be honest the producers have no qualms about changing aspects of the storyline, just look at Theons, their motto seems to be that as long as the end point is the same, changes can be made to better tell a story. If released Arya would still be out in the Riverlands and free to go through the Hell of ASOS, granted we wouldn't get so see her slitting a guards throat, but it's a price I’m willing to pay. So.....thoughts? :)

Tywin does not know that she is Arya Stark.

If he did he would throw her in a locked room and immediately send a raven to King's Landing to alert Tyrion and Cersei that he has her.