Brotherhood without Banners/Lady Stoneheart

[Jolene Brown]

I just want to vent. Does anyone else see an insane irony in Lady Stoneheart working with the Brotherhood without Banners, the very organization, who - upon being informed that the small boy in front of them was actually Arya Stark, the child of the very man who started Lord Beric on his mission in the first place, a 9-10 year old girl who even they must have been able to see had been through some kind of Hell, based on her PTSD like behavior at a couple of points in their interactions - instead of immediately moving Heaven and Earth to get her BACK TO HER MOTHER AND BROTHER, instead drag her around the area of Riverrun as a captive, expose her to yet more gruesome horrors (the men in the cages), hold her FOR RANSOM, completely botch her opportunity to get justice from the Hound even though he actually ADMITS to killing Mycah after the trial and I think says something nasty about Sansa (watching her be beaten "bloody"), and then ultimately piss her off so much that she runs off and gets kidnapped by the Hound. What the hell?

I cried when Arya was re-united with Harwin and the BWB's subsequent actions toward her enraged me almost as much as the rape/torture fests committed by other characters elsewhere. But these people are now Lady Stoneheeart's buddies and Brienne is on trial? I get that the irony is surely deliberate but it is still infuriating. It's fairly consistent with Catelyn's wrong-headedness in the Tyrion incident (I'm sorry, but it's clear that even she recognized she had been a fool by the time they hit Lysa's gates), but my god, is it aggravating. I actually can understand, though I am frustrated by, her treatment of Brienne, but allying up with the BWB in the first place is more irritating to me.

I also don't think it's a coincidence that Lem is the one who picked up the Hound's helm, he was the biggest dick of them all, and I note that Martin made a point of pointing out his broken nose, which had "healed badly" in Brienne's POV.

I do think Brienne/Jaime are headed more into a test than a trap, but what kind of test that will be is a huge question. I would really like to see Lady Stoneheart regain some humanity. Beric wasn't such a monster after his resurrection, and I liked Catelyn, despite her flaws.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

My own interpretation was that Beric gave his life to Lady Stoneheart to make amends for losing Arya.

Then again, they were taking Arya back to her family, they just wanted to be paid for it as well, so I can't say I was that angry at them.

And the Hound was just following orders. As far as he knew the boy attacked the king.

[Tumnas the Torpid]

For all we know, she ate Merret's brains. She's a fucking zombified killing machine. I imagine she'd be willing to work with any none-Frey/Lannister capable of tying a noose.

And, to be fair, a good indicator of the moral quality of the Brotherhood (at least, circa ASoS) is the fact that Arya could break Lem's nose and get away with it. She was completely in the Brotherhood's power, so the only thing stopping him from retaliating was either his own misgivings, or those of the Brotherhood itself.

[Darth Pipes]

If they had brought Arya back to Cat sooner, she probably would have been at the Red Wedding too. Or been at Riverrun right before the Lannisters lay siege to it.

[Walder Waters]

Do you think Catelyn is just traumatized or lost more of her personality than Beric, as she might have been dead too long?

[QuaitheTheShadow]

Do you think Catelyn is just traumatized or lost more of her personality than Beric, as she might have been dead to long?

She is a ghost given flesh who seeks nothing but revenge.

[Errant Bard]

There is no irony, we work every day with people who wouldn't MOVE HEAVEN AND EARTH for our children, if they were in the middle of a war.

The BWB was benevolent enough, heck it even ressurected Catelyn, I think it's big enough a token of goodwill, to give you your life back.

She is a ghost given flesh who seeks nothing but revenge.

Patently wrong, as she is also looking for Arya and Sansa (we know that from the russian edition and from the orphanage), and protecting the smallfolk, like always.

Besides, you describe Arya pretty accurately there, and Tyrion. Is Arya (or Tyrion) a character to be dismissed as some sort of brainless monster?

[Jamie Lannister]

Wait a minute. Surely she'd know that the Brotherhood had Arya by now, right? Someone would've surely told her. Wonder how she took the news of her being alive...

I can't recall if she mentions it.

[Jolene Brown]

I suppose it irritates me more because they sort of put themselves out there as righteous figures, who are not fighting the war but more involved in creating some kind of justice. Of course, in the end, it was better for Arya, although i am not sure I see why Robb/Catelyn would have actually brought her to the Red Wedding. Another alternative to holding her for ransom would have been to just let her take the skiff - they were pretty close by that point, I think.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

Patently wrong, as she is also looking for Arya and Sansa (we know that from the russian edition and from the orphanage), and protecting the smallfolk, like always.

Besides, you describe Arya pretty accurately there, and Tyrion. Is Arya (or Tyrion) a character to be dismissed as some sort of brainless monster?

Listen to Thoros. The BwB no longer stands for the peasants. They don't seem to be actively seeking out Arya / Sansa either, though I don't doubt UnDead Cat wants to see them.

UnCat is like a ghost. She yearns for her daughters but seeks only vengeance. I think being reunited with Arya or Sansa will cause her to cease to be.

[Turkey Jack]

And, to be fair, a good indicator of the moral quality of the Brotherhood (at least, circa ASoS) is the fact that Arya could break Lem's nose and get away with it. She was completely in the Brotherhood's power, so the only thing stopping him from retaliating was either his own misgivings, or those of the Brotherhood itself.

Good point

Cat is with the BwB because they brought her back form the dead, the RW shocked the realm and they followed her out of pity and loathing for the Freys. The BwB start off under Lord Starks command but the longer the conflict gos on the more they themselves are subject to the horrors of war, horrors done by all sides. They are on the side of the smallfolk and those who have been wronged it is no wonder they loose sight of right and wrong when the world has turned to shit, they are simply playing by others rule.

The BwB do repulse me many of the good men have gone Dondarrion Thoros and Dayne, but I know their journey and feel for them.

[Errant Bard]

Listen to Thoros. The BwB no longer stands for the peasants. They don't seem to be actively seeking out Arya / Sansa either, though I don't doubt UnDead Cat wants to see them.

UnCat is like a ghost. She yearns for her daughters but seeks only vengeance. I think being reunited with Arya or Sansa will cause her to cease to be.

Citation please? Thoros only mentions to Brienne that they have run out of pity, but they still go on. That's the way of the resistance.

Uncat is like Beric, and Beric was not some ghost who "ceased to be" when he met people he knew.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

Citation please? Thoros only mentions to Brienne that they have run out of pity, but they still go on. That's the way of the resistance.

Uncat is like Beric, and Beric was not some ghost who "ceased to be" when he met people he knew.

No more trials. They were willing to hang Podrick who's 12.

Beric hadn't been dead for three days. There was more left of 'him'.

I believe Thoros said they used to stand for justice but now he doesn't know what they stand for.

I don't have an ecopy of the book so I cannot cite his dialogue .

[Jolene Brown]

It may make a difference as well that she is described as having gone mad before she died, whereas presumably Beric was cut down in battle. It's weird that this enrages me so, more than other more dramatically awful things - I think it's also that Arya had come so far and that she was so close... it's just so painful to me.

[Errant Bard]

No more trials. They were willing to hang Podrick who's 12.

They let Septon Meribald go free, they save orphans in that inn, they specifically regret to hang Pod, but he said he was a lannister soldier.

And I don't see what it has to do with standing for peasants or looking for Arya.

Beric hadn't been dead for three days. There was more left of 'him'.

Unfounded speculation. Especially since Beric died six times, Cat only once. Citation for when GRRM decreed that delay of resurrection matters, and number of them doesn't? (I can give you the inverse, by the way: number of resurrections does take a heavy toll)

(And I don't see what it has to do with standing for peasants or looking for Arya.)

I believe Thoros said they used to stand for justice but now he doesn't know what they stand for.

Nope, he says that they were deluded, never stood for justice, but only thought they were. And now they see what they really always were, with the war taking its toll on their outlook.

[Jolene Brown]

They didn't seem to regret hanging Pod at all to me!

[Lummel]

...Does anyone else see an insane irony in Lady Stoneheart working with the Brotherhood without Banners, the very organization, who - upon being informed that the small boy in front of them was actually Arya Stark, the child of the very man who started Lord Beric on his mission in the first place, a 9-10 year old girl who even they must have been able to see had been through some kind of Hell, based on her PTSD like behavior at a couple of points in their interactions - instead of immediately moving Heaven and Earth to get her BACK TO HER MOTHER AND BROTHER, instead drag her around the area of Riverrun as a captive, expose her to yet more gruesome horrors (the men in the cages), hold her FOR RANSOM, completely botch her opportunity to get justice from the Hound even though he actually ADMITS to killing Mycah after the trial and I think says something nasty about Sansa (watching her be beaten "bloody"), and then ultimately piss her off so much that she runs off and gets kidnapped by the Hound. What the hell?

I cried when Arya was re-united with Harwin and the BWB's subsequent actions toward her enraged me almost as much as the rape/torture fests committed by other characters elsewhere...

One of the big themes is how ideals of honour lead to war and war just degrades everybody involved. The knights of summer become the war weary and wounded of autumn.

Arya was just a war asset for them to be cashed in at the nearest loyal Stark Stronghold. Still the BWB were a better bunch than most.

[Errant Bard]

They didn't seem to regret hanging Pod at all to me!

Thoros sounded pretty sorry for the guy when he talked to Brienne.

[bloodymime]

No more trials. They were willing to hang Podrick who's 12.

Beric hadn't been dead for three days. There was more left of 'him'.

I believe Thoros said they used to stand for justice but now he doesn't know what they stand for.

I don't have an ecopy of the book so I cannot cite his dialogue .

"Lord Beric’s fire has gone out of this world, I fear. A grimmer shadow leads us in his place.”

"Harwin begged me to give her the kiss of life, but it had been too long. I would not do it, so Lord Beric put his lips to hers instead, and the flame of life passed from him to her. And . . . she rose. May the Lord of Light protect us. She rose.”

We were brothers too, but now our brotherhood is broken. I do not know who we are, if truth be told, nor where we might be going. I only know the road is dark.

“Justice.” Thoros smiled wanly. “I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king’s men, knights, and heroes . . . but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all.”

They do talk of holding the others for Stonehearts judgement. They may be using a fast and loose form of justice but they are following some form. It's just Briennes fault that the evidence they're looking at looks reallly bad for her.

[QuaitheTheShadow]

Nope, he says that they were deluded, never stood for justice, but only thought they were. And now they see what they really always were, with the war taking its toll on their outlook.

Located it. I'd say it's open to interpretation and fair to read between the lines.

“We were king’s men when we began,” the man told her, “but king’s men must have a king, and we have none. We were brothers too, but now our brotherhood is broken. I do not know who we are, if truth be told, nor where we might be going. I only know the road is dark. The fires have not shown me what lies at its end.”

“A boy,” she said again. “Have pity.”

“My lady,” Thoros said, “I do not doubt that kindness and mercy and forgiveness can still be found somewhere in these Seven Kingdoms, but do not look for them here. This is a cave, not a temple. When men must live like rats in the dark beneath the earth, they soon run out of pity, as they do of milk and honey.”

“And justice? Can that be found in caves?”

“Justice.” Thoros smiled wanly. “I remember justice. It had a pleasant taste. Justice was what we were about when Beric led us, or so we told ourselves. We were king’s men, knights, and heroes. but some knights are dark and full of terror, my lady. War makes monsters of us all.”

“Are you saying you are monsters?”

“I am saying we are human. You are not the only one with wounds, Lady Brienne. Some of my brothers were good men when this began. Some were. less good, shall we say? Though there are those who say it does not matter how a man begins, but only how he ends. I suppose it is the same for women.” The priest got to his feet. “Our time together is at an end, I fear. I hear my brothers coming. Our lady sends for you.”

Edit: Bloodymime beat me :)