[ADWD Spoilers] The Red Wedding Clean-up

[Amber84]

I was rereading a Storm of Swords this week and came upon this page. After having read all the books multiple times this jumped out at me and I connected it with the chapter of Jaime in ADWD as he's setting terms, pardons, plans for Riverrun.

On page 272 paperback, Tyrion and Lord Tywin are discussing Robb Starks

marriage to Jenye Westerling. This is how the scene goes : The Westerlings stood to lose everything here; their lands, their castle, their very lives. A Lannister always pays his debts, Tyrion thought.

"Jeyne Westerling is her mother's daughter," said Lord Tywin.

This Westerling betrayal did not seem to have enraged his father as much as

Tyrion would have expected. "The Crag is not so far from Tarbeck Hall and Castamere," Tyrion point out. "You'd think the Westerlings might have ridden past and seen the lesson there."

"Mayhaps they have," Lord Tywin said. "They are well aware of Castamere, I

promise you."

"Could the Westerlings and the Spicers be such great fools as to believe the

wolf can defeat the lion?"

Every once in a very long while, Lord Tywin Lannister would actually threaten to smile; he never did, but the threat alone was terrible to behold. "The greatest fools are ofttimes more clever than the men who laugh at them," Lord Tywin said.

Later on, Jeyne Westerling is talking to Lady Catelyn. Catelyn tells Jeyne that a king needs an heir to which Jenye responds "My mother says the same. She makes a posset for me, herbs and milk and ale, to help make me fertile. I drink it every morning."

When Sybil Westerling is talking to Jaime Lannister after Robb has been killed and Riverrun surrendered, she tells Jaime that his father had promised good marriages for her children, etc. Why would Lord Tywin reward betrayal? UNLESS It was not a betrayal but an elaborate ploy to get Robb to lose the Freys. Before Robb had married Jeyne, Tywin was told by his father that some battles are won with swords, others with quills and paper.

Using the above instances, I think Lord Twyin planned for the Westerlings to trick their daughter into seducing Robb and then kept her from getting pregnant with the 'fertile potion.' What do you guys think?

[rebel_yell]

ye i beleive the young chick was clueless but the family was in on it for sure

[Crown]

It's a common theory. I believe Jeyne was unaware of the set-up, is pregnant with Robb's heir, and has escaped with the Blackfish.

[Tower of Power]

I didn't suspect the extent of the plan until AFFC when Jaime talks with Jeyne's mother.

Tywin was told by his father that some battles are won with swords, others with quills and paper

I'm guessing you meant Tyrion's father?

I often think about that quote and how ingenious Tywin was but I couldn't help but have more respect for the man when I learned the Westerlings were in on it too the whole time. Robb never had a chance

[StannisSeaworth]

Also in ASOS Twin gives Castamere to Rolph Spicer, inicating the Westerlings/Spicers were planning the whole thing with Twin. Why would he give a castle to a traitor?

[Great Winter Knight]

In my opinion you are correct. I believe that when Tywin refrenced the "some battles are won with swords and others are won with pens" the red wedding is what he was referring to. I believe that the falling in love and getting married was not planed but Jane's mother took advantage of a plan that Tywin put forth. It was brillent, but shitty, of Tywin to come up with the Red Wedding, but he knew that the mother would jump ship. Now if Jane is involved then why does she pretend to still have loved the young wolf? There is no claim for her to make, Robb is dead and Winterfell belongs to someone else now.

[Leonardo]

I always thought Tywin looked rather bad in the aftermath of the war for never meeting the Young Wolf on the field, and not really seeming to take much action and just let it all fall into his lap. This explains a lot and puts him back up to genius stature, and is the reason why he didn't chase Robb into the west or at least crush a major target.

Makes perfect sense, good on you and those who put this together. Also that 'posset' seems pretty obviously to be moon tea, so I wouldn't expect an heir of Robb's blood; look to the other Stark children. I always thought it maddening that Jeyne and company were allowed to live and even granted titles.

[StarkofWinterfell]

Considering the fact that the Westerlings do not even exist in the show and that Robb's wife was killed indicates to me that the Westerlings won't have any further part to play in the books.

No Stark heir that would imply.

[lostinwesteros]

Yep, my theory all along. I do think Jeyne was clueless, though - just the idea of marrying a king, especially one who was good-looking (as we assume all the Stark kids were), meant she wouldn't have to have had too much 'encouragement'. And I thought that even Jaime had figured out that the Blackfish had 'jumped ship', taking Jeyne with him, and they'd escaped via river. Always been speculation as to whether or not she was pregnant - if there's been a concensus on the Forum, I've not seen evidence of that. But then, I haven't followed a Jeyne Westerling thread for a long, long time, either.

[ImTHATGuy]

I always thought Tywin looked rather bad in the aftermath of the war for never meeting the Young Wolf on the field, and not really seeming to take much action and just let it all fall into his lap. This explains a lot and puts him back up to genius stature, and is the reason why he didn't chase Robb into the west or at least crush a major target.

Makes perfect sense, good on you and those who put this together. Also that 'posset' seems pretty obviously to be moon tea, so I wouldn't expect an heir of Robb's blood; look to the other Stark children. I always thought it maddening that Jeyne and company were allowed to live and even granted titles.

I always felt that Tywin Lannister was alot like his family members ancestor that brought them to their stature in the first place. I forgot his name....damn it!

[Petyr Patter]

Lann the Clever? Tricked the Casterlies out of Casterly Rock and stole gold from the Sun to give his descendants gold hair?

[Luthien Targaryen]

Um, i've not seen the 3rd season yet but yeah, i've picked up the spoliers. But who says the TV series has to follow the exact same plot as the books? Isn't there a Dothraki who's dead in the TV series but isn't dead in the books?

I remember hearing somebody talking about the tv adaptation of The Walking Dead (another 3rd season DVD i'm waiting for) saying that they'd made changes to quite major characters because it kept fans of the graphic novels interested in the Tv show, they can't be sure what's coming. Perhaps the Westerlings will be back in the books, perhaps even Jeyne, but not in the Tv series which they're basically not in.

[Tini]

ye i beleive the young chick was clueless but the family was in on it for sure

Not all of them - didn't Jeyne lose a brother during the Red Wedding who was defending Robb?

I think Lady Westerling didn't think it necessary to inform the family of her plans.