Why do people hate Dany?

[bbqq]

Yeah, the Green Grace all but tells Dany that she's the one doing the damage. I wish she was a POV, honestly. She and the Queen of Thorns would get along wonderfully. As for Hizdahr, I think he's just taking potshots at the Shavepate's torture getting "names," just not necessarily any useful ones.

Yeah, I agree with you there. I just think it's funny how they both refered to him as the harpy in the same chapter.

That's mainly why I didn't like Dany in aDwD, because it was so obvious, she completely failed to pick it up (despite being savvy with things like this in the past), and that stopped reading it being fun. I personally didn't judge Dany to be a morally evil character (relative to the rest of the book, of course..), because she always seems to question her more horrific acts, at one point going so far as to ask her advisers if she is a monster.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Yeah, I agree with you there. I just think it's funny how they both refered to him as the harpy in the same chapter.

That's mainly why I didn't like Dany in aDwD, because it was so obvious, she completely failed to pick it up (despite being savvy with things like this in the past), and that stopped reading it being fun. I personally didn't judge Dany to be a morally evil character (relative to the rest of the book, of course..), because she always seems to question her more horrific acts, at one point going so far as to ask her advisers if she is a monster.

Is she really savvy though? She didn't see MMD coming, she didn't see Plumm for what he was, Barristan had to tell her that Jorah had sold her out, she can't tell who the Harpy is.

[bbqq]

Is she really savvy though? She didn't see MMD coming, she didn't see Plumm for what he was, Barristan had to tell her that Jorah had sold her out, she can't tell who the Harpy is.

Sorry, I should have specified. When I said 'in the past', I meant the preceding books to aDwD, and by 'it', I meant the majority of her errors in aDwD. Should have been clearer there. I agree with you on most of those apart from Mormont, I think she had no way of seeing that coming. As a reader I wouldn't have had a clue, apart from the fact that it was revealed in a Ned POV.

(What do you mean by MMD? I'm not familiar with that acronym..)

[butterbumps!]

Is she really savvy though? She didn't see MMD coming, she didn't see Plumm for what he was, Barristan had to tell her that Jorah had sold her out, she can't tell who the Harpy is.

I never disagree with you on this subject, but I'm going to say that I think she does show a bit of savviness early on. I think she can innately sense whether of not someone has strength/ power, I think she saw Viserys for what he was instinctively, even if she wouldn't admit it to herself at first, and I think she intuitively "gets" certain dynamics (like the fact that Illyrio's servants are actually slaves despite slavery's being illegal).

But in terms of who to trust, I'm very much with you. She admires certain people for qualities like their strength and power, but mistakes these qualities as trustworthiness. As in, she projects her admiration and respect for them as their admiration and respect for her.

[Dr. Pepper]

Funny. I think Dany listens to her current advisers a bit to much. Reopening the fighting pits, allowing the brazen beasts to interrogate prisoners, marrying Hizdahr.... The problem isn't that she doesn't take advice. The problem is pretty much everyone around her is giving her the wrong advice.

I stand corrected. You are right. Dany listens to her advisers. It just so happens that she has put together a poor council that includes former slavers who are advising on how to deal with their former slaves. They are working against her. That her council is so weak indicates how weak and incompetent she is as a ruler.

Dany never set out to rule.

Perhaps she didn't intend to rule at the beginning of AGOT but she still makes a very deliberate decision to rule. It wasn't thrust upon her. She herself decided not to go to Vaes Dothrak, where widowed kahleesi's normally go. She herself decided not to go to Asshai as Jorah recommended. She herself decided not to return to the house with the red door in Braavos or even to Pentos where she at least knew Illyrio. She herself decided to sack and devastate an entire region. I don't disagree that her original reason for doing so was a noble one, but she is still the one who decided to do it and she should be held accountable for her decision and especially for poor execution. It wasn't thrust upon her. My line of work is related to human rights. I see atrocities all the time and I know that something should be done and I know that at times people look to me to help them, doesn't mean that I should automatically make the decision just because of that. I would make a terrible leader! I recognize this. I recognized this all the way in primary school when I didn't do things like run for student council and such. The only time I've ever taken on a leadership position, it was with a lot of thought and careful planning.

I think this is a key part of Dany's character that often gets lost in the shuffle. She's is a genuinely good, kind, empathetic person who really cares about her people, and won't turn away the wretched outcasts of society. She just fucked up Slaver's Bay. Yeah, she's not a good ruler, but she is a good person at her core, and that means more to me.

I really disagree with the statement that she's a good, kind, empathetic person who really cares. For crying out loud, she sits on her throne eating while holding court when she's aware that the city is starving! So freaking insensitive. I'm not suggesting that she starve herself (it would be counterproductive) but perhaps hold off on nibbling bits of elaborately presented food when in privacy. She's definitely not kind or good when she crucifies 163 random people. Absolutely not kind or good when she uses or threatens to use WMDs (which she has little control of!) to get what she wants.

I'm curious to know, if Daenerys proves to be the hero of the story, are those here who hate her going to seriously devalue the series in consequence? Because, right now, a lot of people are banking on, or even hoping, that this will not prove to be the case, but if it does turn out that way, will the entire story be ruined for you guys?

No, the entire story would not be ruined for me if she turned out to be the hero but only if GRRM builds up to it. What we know of her now, what we know of Martin's pace in these books and what we know of how many books are left in the series, there simply isn't enough time to turn Dany into some hero so big and shiny that it totally overshadows all of the villainy stuff she's done.

I do wonder if the story would be ruined for those who think she's already a bright and shiny hero if the series ends with her being a clear villain.

This thread has been quite interesting. Hope it gets a new one started before this one gets locked.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I do wonder if the story would be ruined for those who think she's already a bright and shiny hero if the series ends with her being a clear villain.

Good question!

What say you, Dany fans? If Stormbrat ends up turning into Aerys II with boobs, will the series be ruined?! :D

[BabyMeraxes]

I really disagree with the statement that she's a good, kind, empathetic person who really cares. For crying out loud, she sits on her throne eating while holding court when she's aware that the city is starving! So freaking insensitive. I'm not suggesting that she starve herself (it would be counterproductive) but perhaps hold off on nibbling bits of elaborately presented food when in privacy. She's definitely not kind or good when she crucifies 163 random people. Absolutely not kind or good when she uses or threatens to use WMDs (which she has little control of!) to get what she wants.

But what about when she attempts saves Eroah (?) and MMD from being raped, what about when she takes on the former Dothraki slaves after freeing them, what about when she comforts Missandei after her brother dies, what about when she washes the sicken'd wretched? When it comes to the big shit, Dany fails, but she has distinct moments of kindness and tenderness and empathy, and there are a lot of them, they're just small, and I don't know the books well enough to reference them all.

[BabyMeraxes]

Good question! What say you, Dany fans? If Stormbrat ends up turning into Aerys II with boobs, will the series be ruined?! :D

Yes and No.

No, because her arch has already given me so many awesome moments, that it doesn't matter what path her story takes coming up. I'll always have the Meereenese fighting pits.

Yes, because, despite with other readers may think, I feel like Martin has created a really awesome, complex, entertaining protagonist in Dany. In all my years of reading fiction, I've never come across a female character quite like her, and to make her this crazy, pyromaniac killer who swoops around on dragonback would shit on that a little bit. I really, honestly don't think that this is the case, and even if it is, I'll still read and love this story.

[Winterfellian]

But what about when she attempts saves Eroah (?) and MMD from being raped, what about when she takes on the former Dothraki slaves after freeing them, what about when she comforts Missandei after her brother dies, what about when she washes the sicken'd wretched? When it comes to the big shit, Dany fails, but she has distinct moments of kindness and tenderness and empathy, and there are a lot of them, they're just small, and I don't know the books well enough to reference them all.

I agree with you that she isn't a bad person in core. Many of her more controversial decisions stem from good intentions the problem is that they are not tempered by responsability and long term plannning

I think a distinction should be made between ''Danny the person'' and ''Danny the Queen''. As a person I agree she has lots of emphatic moments like the ones you mentioned. It is her queen persona that I have a problem with.

[PatrickStormborn]

Good question!

What say you, Dany fans? If Stormbrat ends up turning into Aerys II with boobs, will the series be ruined?! :D

If Dany "succumbs to madness" simply because of her genetics, then yes, the series will be ruined for me. If, on the other hand, it's handled in an interesting way without genetics being a factor and with no misogynistic undertones (unlike Cersei's fall into madness), then it will not be ruined for me.

But nothing would ruin the series more than if Dany was just a plot device to further the male characters. That's pretty much the only thing that would make me put down the books, stop reading, and never even consider picking them up again. :)

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If Dany "succumbs to madness" simply because of her genetics, then yes, the series will be ruined for me. If, on the other hand, it's handled in an interesting way without genetics being a factor and with no misogynistic undertones (unlike Cersei's fall into madness), then it will not be ruined for me.

I've noted before that the Targaryens who end up being the most fucked are the ones who identify the strongest with the dragon imagery. Do you think that might be a clue of some sort? "I'm the blood of the dragon, I'm fire made flesh rah rah rah!" Would that fall under "genetics" for you?

[Sasha Steelsong]

Good question!

What say you, Dany fans? If Stormbrat ends up turning into Aerys II with boobs, will the series be ruined?! :D

What about the reverse. If Dany does save Westeros and sits the Iron Throne with her dragons will the series be ruined for those that don't want her to be any kind of hero? :D

[Lord Ben]

She's already Cersei only less mature and with Dragons... heh.

I enjoy her character and her POV but I'm under no illusions as to her being a hero or anything.

I didn't start reading the books until early last year so I was able to read all 5 in a row without stopping. However I wonder if at the end of book 2 if given time to digest and discuss everything at that point what my opinion would be in the discussion of Robb Stark vs where Dany is right now. Robb hasn't done anything bad but has made terrible decisions which he has not yet "learned" from until book 3 where Roose Bolton takes him to school and shows him what's up.

I mean, he failed to ally himself with any of the 5 Kings and divides his own forces up as well. Had he been willing to bend the knee to any king but Joeffery and acted like a King instead of a horny teenager when it came to marriage he'd be in a very good position. Dany is the same way, she's making stupid emotional decisions which are terrible to make when you run a country/army/3 ships, etc. And it's turning out poorly.

My personal prediction is she'll lose everything in Essos and come back with nothing + a dragon. Or perhaps she'll simply stay in Essos instead of trying to conquer some land she's never set foot on. She seemed happy with the Dothraki. Go back to that...

[Winterfellian]

But nothing would ruin the series more than if Dany was just a plot device to further the male characters.

I think this is something most of us will agree with :) Out of curiosity, what situation will you consider as a plot device to further the male characters?

[BabyMeraxes]

I agree with you that she isn't a bad person in core. Many of her more controversial decisions stem from good intentions the problem is that they are not tempered by responsability and long term plannning I think a distinction should be made between ''Danny the person'' and ''Danny the Queen''. As a person I agree she has lots of emphatic moments like the ones you mentioned. It is her queen persona that I have a problem with.

I agree 1,000,000%. Obviously, Dany shouldn't rule, and as of this moment, I don't think she will.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I think this is something most of us will agree with :) Out of curiosity, what situation will you consider as a plot device to further the male characters?

Her purpose was only to birth the dragons but they are either taken by a man so he can use them or killed off. For me at least that would be a plot device

[Angalin]

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Abstract discussions of racism/oppression/etc belong over in General Chatter and should be approached cautiously.

Locking thread for length.

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