Why do people hate Dany?

[Kittyhat]

My point is that war has different justifications. War is a terrible thing - if you are going to put on an aggressive war to improve the world, you'd better be actually improving the world.

Dany hasn't, and is thus utterly unjustified.

The war isn't done yet. And if she has to pile up bodies now to make things better for countless future generations, then that would in the end be more than justified.

Terrible, yes. But ultimately justified and ultimately for the better.

[danm_999]

I'm not. Tywin had a whole lifetime into relatively old age to establish a good dynasty, and he spent it sabotaging it brutally instead.

Now you're pettifogging Dany has more potential, when you initially said she was more competant.

Dany is ... 15, for Christ's sake. And hasn't even gotten out of the wartime part yet. It's not the same thing; it's not even on the same planet as the same thing.

She hasn't gotten out of wartime because she failed to quell the dissent in Mereen. If Mereen was secure, Yunkai wouldn't have been able to move against her.

She also put herself in her situation, so if it's a crappy situation, it's because she didn't have the werewithall to avoid it.

So you think that slavery and brutal torture of innocent children is acceptable and should be left alone by those with the means and opportunity to stop it. Good to know.

I happen to believe in stopping such things.

You need more of a plan than blindly opposing it though, because all that's going to do is snap the rubber band back the other way when you're gone. There's a reason Lincoln guaranteed to respect the rights of slave states to slavery when he was inaugurated, and promised not to do anything to change that.

[FuzzyJAM]

The war isn't done yet. And if she has to pile up bodies now to make things better for countless future generations, then that would in the end be more than justified.

Terrible, yes. But ultimately justified and ultimately for the better.

Ah, so when she wins her war it will go well?

Just so we're clear, does this plan for the greater good involve the murdering of tens of thousands of children or what? How about children born of sex slaves?

[Castel]

I'm not. Tywin had a whole lifetime into relatively old age to establish a good dynasty, and he spent it sabotaging it brutally instead. Dany is ... 15, for Christ's sake. And hasn't even gotten out of the wartime part yet. It's not the same thing; it's not even on the same planet as the same thing. So you think that slavery and brutal torture of innocent children is acceptable and should be left alone by those with the means and opportunity to stop it. Good to know. I happen to believe in stopping such things.

Tywin's dynasty was sabotaged by forces outside his control and he did what he could to bring it back to where he wanted it to be. And I have seen little evidence that he was ever abusive towards Cersei and Jaime. I'm not sure that he can be at all blamed for the way they turned out. Cersei showed warning signs early on.

Dany went to war without a concrete plan for ruling and so the entire campaign hinged on her. And she knew that she was infertile yet is planning to conquer Westeros again, with WMDs that only answer to a race that will die with her. Yes, this is totally relevant.

As for slavery, if you are going to stop it you should damn well plan well and be ready for the consequences. Jumping out based on your heart and not your head is utterly unacceptable because you may end up doing more harm than good. Regardless she is still responsible for her situation, whether or not you or I feel that she should have done it anyway. It is her duty to fix the problem, failure to do so is incompetence.

[Castel]

The war isn't done yet. And if she has to pile up bodies now to make things better for countless future generations, then that would in the end be more than justified. Terrible, yes. But ultimately justified and ultimately for the better.

This remains to be seen, if things continue this way all that is going to happen is that all of the people that helped Dany are going to end up dead or crucified and order will be restored, with a loss of life perhaps greater than if the slave trade had continued.

It's kinda like arguing that we can nuke certain parts of Africa for having child soldiers. We need to be discriminating and see if we are doing more harm that good and who we are doing the harm to.

[Kittyhat]

Dany went to war without a concrete plan for ruling and so the entire campaign hinged on her. And she knew that she was infertile yet is planning to conquer Westeros again, with WMDs that only answer to a race that will die with her.

It's not like she's had a whole lot of time to sit and plan. Doran Martell had 15 years to sit and plan (since he apparently never did anything else), and his "plan" was still the dumbest, clumsiest, most poorly thought-out thing imaginable (and blew up magnificently), and there are people who go on like he's some kind of brilliant super strategist.

Dany has been basically forced to act at every turn from jump. She's never had any time to sit and work things out. I guess it's pretty easy to sit in the normative situation and pass judgment on someone who's being forced to make every decision on the fly, right now, because there really isn't a lot of time to sit and think about it first.

But I can't honestly imagine anyone here doing any better. Or having any more of a plan.

Well, you already know what I think. We're just going to go 'round in circles here to no useful end, and no one will convince anyone of anything, so I'll just bow out of this. I'm tired of arguing about it, honestly.

[danm_999]

The war isn't done yet. And if she has to pile up bodies now to make things better for countless future generations, then that would in the end be more than justified.

Terrible, yes. But ultimately justified and ultimately for the better.

There's no indication things are being made better for future generations though. The one city she is conclusively 'done' with, Astapor, is likely ruined forever.

[danm_999]

It's not like she's had a whole lot of time to sit and plan. Doran Martell had 15 years to sit and plan (since he apparently never did anything else), and his "plan" was still the dumbest, clumsiest, most poorly thought-out thing imaginable (and blew up magnificently), and there are people who go on like he's some kind of brilliant super strategist.

1) Stop strawmanning. Nobody is talking about Doran.

2) Not having time to formulate a plan does not excuse you from causing chaos. If you don't know what you're doing, or where it'll take you, you always have the choice to not act.

Dany has been basically forced to act at every turn from jumpShe's never had any time to sit and work things out. I guess it's pretty easy to sit in the normative situation and pass judgment on someone who's being forced to make every decision on the fly, right now, because there really isn't a lot of time to sit and think about it first. But I can't honestly imagine anyone here doing any better. Or having any more of a plan. Well, you already know what I think. We're just going to go 'round in circles here to no useful end, and no one will convince anyone of anything, so I'll just bow out of this. I'm tired of arguing about it, honestly.

Point is, she wasn't forced into this situation, she created it. She didn't have to stop in Astapor. She didn't have to turn that place upside down. She didn't have to go to Yunkai. She didn't have to go to Mereen. She didn't have to stay in Mereen.

So the fact she hasn't had time to think all these things through before she does them isn't a defence, it's a point against her. It's a perfect example of the 'fools rush in' idiom.

[FuzzyJAM]

It's not like she's had a whole lot of time to sit and plan. Doran Martell had 15 years to sit and plan (since he apparently never did anything else), and his "plan" was still the dumbest, clumsiest, most poorly thought-out thing imaginable (and blew up magnificently), and there are people who go on like he's some kind of brilliant super strategist. Dany has been basically forced to act at every turn from jump. She's never had any time to sit and work things out. I guess it's pretty easy to sit in the normative situation and pass judgment on someone who's being forced to make every decision on the fly, right now, because there really isn't a lot of time to sit and think about it first. But I can't honestly imagine anyone here doing any better. Or having any more of a plan. Well, you already know what I think. We're just going to go 'round in circles here to no useful end, and no one will convince anyone of anything, so I'll just bow out of this. I'm tired of arguing about it, honestly.

If you're going to go into an aggressive war, you can't make excuses. If it's going to be morally justifiable, saying "Well, I didn't really think it through, but, like, it seemed like a good idea, OK?" is not acceptable. War is the single most destructive thing regardless of the "rightness" or outcome of it - if you try to justify aggressive war by saying it will improve the world then you'd better have a fucking fantastic plan or else I'm going to consider your actions completely reprehensible. Failure (beyond utterly unforeseeable events) is simply unacceptable.

I don't see what relevance Doran has (the guy appears to be a complete failure on multiple levels), nor do I see what relevance the competence of anyone here would have - that's you getting into relativism yourself!

[Kittyhat]

nor do I see what relevance the competence of anyone here would have - that's you getting into relativism yourself!

Not backing out of my decision to bow out of this otherwise unending argument, but I just wanted to say ... I do not think that word means what you think it means.

[Natalie_S]

I understand that Dany is young and still has plenty to learn about leading a country and politics.

She tries to be against the injustice and screws up big time... but that's good, because she's 15, and it wouldn't have been realistic if she succeeded in everything she did.

The problem is, in my opinion, that I wish that her character development was done in a less boring setting: I am sick and tired of Mereen, the court, the slaves and all those people with too many "z" in their names.

Plus the fact that her plotline is completely disconnected from the other characters sometimes makes me go "oh no, again" when I find one of her chapters because I want to know what happens next in Westeros and I'm stuck for 10 pages or so in a storyline that has nothing to do with it and where, most of the times, very little happens.

[David C. Hunter]

Meh, many reasons why many people don't like Dany. Its a story and everyone has their opinion, but Dany fans shouldn't belittle those who have an animosity towards her. It speaks to the novels that a fictional character can have such influence in our lives.

[FuzzyJAM]

Not backing out of my decision to bow out of this otherwise unending argument, but I just wanted to say ... I do not think that word means what you think it means.

I'm sorry, but perhaps it's you that doesn't know what it means, though considering its limited usage to mean "moral relativism" I can see why. However, moral relativism is not the only form of relativism - if it were, we wouldn't put the "moral" part in! :P

Relativism in this sense is you judging a decision based on the person making it rather than the facts available to that person. A bad decision is a bad decision, regardless of whether someone's background or position might explain why they made it.

[Harle The Handsome]

You say that like you think Tywin Lannister was even remotely competent. Daenerys at 15 with no training is already a better leader than Tywin. Hell, my cat is a better leader than Tywin. And she's dead.

Coincidentally, so is Tywin.

[JKeats]

I dislike Dany because things are just handed to her.

Handed to her not just by societal privilege, which after all many other characters benefit from. But human society is subject to change, so privilege of this sort can come and go when social structures change.

Handed to her not just in the prosaic sense that some people are simply lucky to be born with this advantage or that. Innate qualities are not evenly distributed, and we try through various means to compensate for this initial maldistribution.

No, Daenerys is extra super privileged in that the very laws of the universe in ASOIAF bend just for her. Even in a fantasy setting, the normal rules are suspended for her special benefit. Why? Nobody knows. They just are because she is the designated hero.

Bah! I hope she dies ignominiously.

[Kittyhat]

I'm sorry, but perhaps it's you that doesn't know what it means, though considering its limited usage to mean "moral relativism" I can see why. However, moral relativism is not the only form of relativism - if it were, we wouldn't put the "moral" part in! :P

Yes, it can also be cultural relativism, for example, which in fact is what I was referencing in this context.

Relativism in this sense is you judging a decision based on the person making it rather than the facts available to that person. A bad decision is a bad decision, regardless of whether someone's background or position might explain why they made it.

Okay ... but ... that's still not what relativism means. Like, at all.

Here, if it helps at all, have a look for yourself:

http://dictionary.re.../relativism?s=t

http://www.merriam-w...nary/relativism

I understand what you're trying to say, but you're simply using the wrong word to say it. I'm not even going to bother arguing the point itself, as I already said I'm bowing out of that. I just thought you might want to avoid embarrassing yourself by misusing this word in the future.

Now, if I'd argued something along the lines of Daenerys's particular cultural background being a justification for her actions as compared with Tywin's cultural background and similar actions, you'd have a point. But needless to say ... I didn't.

Well, in any case, onward.

[rmanoj]

All right, I'll see if I can come up with some concrete points:

• Dany sacked Astapor and left it to be governed by a council of, I think, a healer, scholar and priest. Did she just think everything was going to be OK? That was incredibly naive of her (and damn Jorah and Barristan for not counselling her better). Astapor now seems to have descended into a ceaseless orgy of bloodshed and brutality for which she bears the responsibility.
  
• I don't really remember what happened with Yunkai - did she just defeat them in battle and leave? I don't recall if she actually forced them into a treaty banning slavery, but if she did, they promptly proceeded to ignore it. Again, naive.
  
• Crucifying 163 people in Meereen wasn't justice in any acceptable sense of the term. It was vengeance, an eye for an eye. Nowhere is it implied that she even bothered to establish individual guilt- she just ordered a number of people equivalent to that of the crucified slaves to be handed over. Two wrongs don't make a right.
  
• The sack of Meereen (taking a city doesn't necessitate a brutal sack, especially if you have such a disciplined force as the Unsullied)
  
• Pardoning horrific crimes committed during the sack for the sake of political expediency (and it doesn't even work). Can you imagine any other "good" character in this series doing this?
  
• This goes hand in hand with her generally arbitrary and emotion-governed sense of justice and condoning of torture that we see when she handles other issues in Meereen.
  
• Terrible handling of her dragons and of the Sons of the Harpy situation.
  
• She abolished slavery without any concrete, economically realistic plan. Now her freedmen are suffering and some are willingly selling themselves back into slavery. Has she really achieved anything beyond an ephemeral lifting of spirits using the word "freedom"?
  
• Meereen is highly unstable and in great danger. She disappears because suddenly one of her dragons is more important than the hundreds of thousands (perhaps even millions?) of people she's forced to become dependent on her. If she doesn't make it back in time, how many will have perished because of her unrealistic ambitions?
  
• And she won't shut up when it comes to her endless list of titles and being "the Blood of the Dragon" (which apparently makes her immune to disease and magically grants the ability to make hats). Arrogance and vanity. I can't picture Targs I actually like, such as Baelor Breakspear and Egg, being so delusional and lacking in humility,
  
• She never lets Barristan finish talking when it looks as if he's going to explain what was wrong with the family and why her father had to be overthrown. She prefers to remain content with what she learnt from Viserys of all people, hating the "Usurper's dogs" and glorifying the Targaryens. Maybe she wouldn't think she was the "rightful" Queen of Westeros if she bothered to acquire a proper understanding of the situation.
  

[FuzzyJAM]

The fundamental idea of relativism is the idea that the validity of ideas and "truth" is determined by the observer.

You're defending a decision made not on the reasoning behind it, nor the outcome, nor any ignorance on the part of the person making it - instead, you're defending it based on the person making it; arguing that it's not a bad decision because the person making it is young and uneducated, or that most others couldn't do better. Youth and lack of education can explain and mitigate a bad decision (just as your cultural background can explain your immoral behaviour), sure, but they don't make a bad decision any less bad - to argue that is to argue for a form of relativism.

[Kittyhat]

The fundamental idea of relativism is the idea that the validity of ideas and "truth" is determined by the observer.

You're defending a decision made not on the reasoning behind it, nor the outcome, nor any ignorance on the part of the person making it - instead, you're defending it based on the person making it; arguing that it's not a bad decision because the person making it is young and uneducated, or that most others couldn't do better. Youth and lack of education can explain and mitigate a bad decision (just as your cultural background can explain your immoral behaviour), sure, but they don't make a bad decision any less bad - to argue that is to argue for a form of relativism.

It's a real stretch to say that arguing that mitigating circumstances (time to plan carefully was not available; situation was do or die) are in play in a situation is relativism. That's akin to saying that every time someone says, "Oh, cut her some slack; she was having a bad day," that's something you can label as "relativism." It doesn't ... quite ... work that way.

Meh. I'm done arguing this point, too. If you're determined to keep using the word that way, go nuts.

[FuzzyJAM]

It's a real stretch to say that arguing that mitigating circumstances (time to plan carefully was not available; situation was do or die) are in play in a situation is relativism. That's akin to saying that every time someone says, "Oh, cut her some slack; she was having a bad day," that's something you can label as "relativism." It doesn't ... quite ... work that way. Meh. I'm done arguing this point, too. If you're determined to keep using the word that way, go nuts.

If you accept that Dany made bad decisions and are simply arguing that we should "cut her some slack" because it's understandable that she made them then that isn't relativism and I agree.

I thought you were arguing that her decisions weren't actually bad.