Just Finished Book 5... My Thoughts/Questions

[Humphrey Plantagenet]

I can understand people thinking AFFC is a bit of a slog to get through. There are so many new POVs that we don't really care about and some of them seem to last a long time without going anywhere. There are some great strands in there though - particularly Arya, Sam and Sansa. It's a good book but will probably always be an acquired taste. On the other hand I think it's unfair to say there's been a sudden drop or change. I really enjoyed it but I personally found ACOK to be very slow and actually (aside from Blackwater and Theon's capture of Winterfell) not very much of real consequence happened. Personally Stannis in ACOK was a let down after the build up, the two shadow babies wasted time (clever of the TV show to combine them into one!), Danny did nothing and Jon Snow basically walked from one place to another. Yes he killed the halfhand (a character introduced in book 2 to be killed in book 2) but that was about it. Given that, and the excellent quality of the Theon chapters, I actually think ADWD is the second best book in the series after ASOS. The only thing that really sets ADWD back for me is the lack of the climactic battles. For me it finished 150 pages too soon - but if you're going to have a complaint about a book that's definitely a good one to have! When I'd finished ADWD it actually gave me a greater appreciation for AFFC - the two books lean on each other in certain places (the Danny and Cersei chapters seem to echo each other and so do other chapters). It's just a shame that they're both far too long to have been condensed into a single tighter book where far more people could have naturally recognised the links. They could have been cut or edited more thoroughly.

I pretty much agree with everything you say. When I reread the novels AFfC became my firm favourite. I like the large size of AFfC & ADwD, it makes them very rereadable to me. It’s funny you should mention the lack of incident of ACoK, I was watching the TV show the other day and it occurred to me that pretty much nothing has happened in the 2^nd series so far.

[jlk7e]

Given that, and the excellent quality of the Theon chapters, I actually think ADWD is the second best book in the series after ASOS. The only thing that really sets ADWD back for me is the lack of the climactic battles. For me it finished 150 pages too soon - but if you're going to have a complaint about a book that's definitely a good one to have! When I'd finished ADWD it actually gave me a greater appreciation for AFFC - the two books lean on each other in certain places (the Danny and Cersei chapters seem to echo each other and so do other chapters). It's just a shame that they're both far too long to have been condensed into a single tighter book where far more people could have naturally recognised the links. They could have been cut or edited more thoroughly.

I agree with you that Clash has some problems, but I think that's really selling short the first book, which is by a considerable margin the most satisfyingly structured of the books. Dany's story in the first book is by a considerable margin the most satisfying one, and the political and military narratives of Ned, Catelyn, and Tyrion's chapters also works very well. The Stark kids have less to do, but it feels like they do just enough to interest us in what they'll be doing in the rest of the series, and the book ends at a place that feels satisfying as a stand alone but that also leaves us eager to find out what happens next. The series gets better from there in a lot of ways, but in terms of creating a satisfying structure for a single book, I think it works the best. Storm of Swords is better in many ways, but I think there's some structural flaws, mostly due to the fact that the plots for half the characters from Clash are carried over to the next book (Catelyn, Jon, Arya, Sansa) while severeal others that did see their stories concluded in the second book don't get a compelling new storyline - either at all or until quite late in the book (Tyrion, Bran, Davos). Tyrion, in particular, suffers in the first half of the book, where he's left with nothing to do but basically be a much more resentful Areo to Tywin's eviller Doran. And Dany's plot in the third book is okay (much better than the mess of nothing that was her plot in Clash), but not as good as in the first book. The good stuff in Storm is the best stuff in the series so far, but it doesn't exactly hold together a self-contained narrative the way Game does.

Obviously, some of this is inevitable for a middle book, and a lot of it has to do with flaws in the second book, but I think Game deserves consideration as the best book in the series.

As for the last two, I think the fact that Dance finished 150 pages to soon actually is a serious problem. Feast and Dance were supposed to be one book. The story Martin intended to tell in that one book is actually going to end up being told in 2 and a half books. A lot of the cul-de-sacs and byways that Martin takes us on in these last two books are interesting, but the climaxes have all been removed (except for Jon's). In my opinion, all the Arya, Cersei, Jaime, and Areo material from Dance should have been included in Feast, and Kevan's chapter should have been the epilogue to Feast (the Connington story would have obviously seemed to come from nowhere, so that might necessitate some changes to the Kevan story, but only minor ones, I think). All those stories are part of the Feast story, not Dance, and their inclusion in Dance takes up space that ought to be used for getting to the damned climax there.

There probably also ought to have been some resolution, at least, to the Jaime and Brienne story, even if not to Cersei's trial. The fact that the cliffhangers in Feast were followed by another cliffhanger in Dance (also true of the Cersei story) is annoying.

That gives him six extra chapters (I think) in Dance, and if he'd also compressed some of the traveloguing in Dance (Tyrion's, in particular), that would probably have given him enough extra space to actually finish the damned story of Dance.

Instead, neither story is finished. I like basically all the specific material in Dance (with the partial exception of some of the Meereen stuff, which gets tedious), but it doesn't hold together and give us any conclusions. The Jon story is a full arc, I guess, but it ends on a cliffhanger (perhaps inevitable); the Thon story is satisfying for his character, but doesn't give us any resolution to the broader plotline of what's going to happen between Stannis and the Boltons.

I'd add that I don't think any of the plotlines of the first three books leave us as much at loose ends as basically every plot strand in the last few books has. Maybe Bran in A Storm of Swords.

[Yeade]

I can't discuss AFFC as it's been years since I last re-read that book, but I think GRRM can rightly be criticized for being self-indulgent so far as ADWD is concerned. As one reviewer put it, he's lost sight of what interests the majority of his readers (plot resolution) in favor of what interests him personally (worldbuilding and food, lol).

Now, GRRM apparently wants Jon on that cliffhanger of his. Which in turn means the readers must be kept in the dark about Stannis's fate and the outcome of the battle for Winterfell. Fair enough. Though I note that GRRM's created another weird timeline snarl with Jon's last chapter in ADWD taking place upwards of a week after what's likely to be the first third of TWOW in the North. People are already confused about this. Understandably so, IMO.

I am, however, far less forgiving of the battle for Meereen being cut from the novel. Posters in TWOW section of these boards have speculated that this battle can be covered in as little as five chapters (Victarion, Tyrion, Victarion, Barristan, Tyrion). For comparison, the Blackwater takes only six chapters (Sansa, Davos, Tyrion, Sansa, Tyrion, Sansa) in a straight run sandwiched between one of Theon's POVs and one of Dany's.

The trick's to have Dany not return to the city until after the battle is won. Which strikes me as a very reasonable guess given that Dany must spend time treating with the Dothraki, possibly has a destined meeting with the dosh khaleen to attend and, even if she can quickly cross great distances flying upon Drogon, can't expect a huge khalasar on horseback or foot to match her pace. The Meereen POVs would then end on the aftermath of the battle with everyone wondering where the queen's disappeared off to and what ought to be done next. Cut to Dany's last ADWD chapter of wandering in the wilderness.

Problem is, as it stands, I at least can't see a reason why this or another method wasn't pursued to include in the book the big action set piece that not only would've gone a ways towards redeeming the meandering pace of the Essos storylines but takes some of the pressure to pick up the plot off TWOW. Besides really poor editing, that is.

In the end, I feel that ADWD is enjoyable enough on its own but has serious flaws when considered as the fifth entry in what's originally supposed to be a series of seven novels. What seems to be most of the major outstanding plot elements from ASOS remain pending. Dany isn't finished with Meereen yet. Never mind sailing to Westeros! The Others have made no attempts to breach the Wall, and the various claims on Winterfell stay unresolved still. Never mind the Iron Throne! The sheer amount of story that needs to be told for any halfway satisfying conclusion to even be visible on the horizon is so daunting more and more people, including GRRM himself, doubt ASOIAF can end with just TWOW and ADOS. I honestly can't say I blame some fans for being upset at the prospect of having to wait, say, two decades for a finale that's delayed in part because the narrative structure of ADWD is incomplete in lacking both the climactic denouements the rest of the book builds up to. This is such a... sophomoric writing mistake.

[Ferrum Aeternum]

It took me a re-read to really like and appreciate Feast. The 2nd re-read was even better.

On first read, I found ADWD great in parts (Bran, Theon) and disappointing in others (Dany, Tyrion). Honestly though, the way my brain processes these books I'll need to read it at least once more before I can give a definitive opinion on the work as a whole. May turn out to have a different view on things than I do now.

[jlk7e]

Yeade - I basically agree with most of your points, but I don't understand why ending on a cliffhanger with the assassination plot against Jon also requires that we don't get any resolution to what is happening outside Winterfell. The main drama of Jon's last chapter is not his decision to rouse the Wildlings to go save Arya, but the assassination attempt - and we could be left in the dark about that even while knowing more about the circumstances surrounding the origin of Ramsay's letter to Jon. It's more defensible than taking out the battle for Meereen, but not that much more defensible.

I'd add that I think the laziness of the resolution to A Feast for Crows is even worse. Basically, that book doesn't have any real plot at all for Sansa and Arya. Sam's story is just a travelogue that ends at the point where it should be beginning (besides giving Sam a chance to fuck Gilly, what exactly was accomplished in padding out Sam's journey to last the entire novel? Even his encounter with Arya, which could have been a highlight, and could even have been a good means to get Arya the hell out of Braavos, was marginal and tangential). Brienne and Cersei's stories end in cliffhangers, with no resolution, and Jaime's story doesn't even really end at all. Only the Dorne and Iron Islands sections have any kind of natural story arc.

Then, when we catch up with these characters again, briefly, in A Dance with Dragons, things don't proceed any further. We don't get any real resolution to Brienne's cliffhanger; instead Jaime just gets caught up into what is essentially the same cliffhanger. Two chapters of Cersei and a chapter of Kevan don't get us very far beyond where we were at the end of Cersei's story in Feast, and two chapters of Arya continue to have no real plot. To top it all off is another chapter from Areo Hotah's useless point of view (all of the Dorne material should have been from Arianne's POV, imo) which could easily have come at the end of Feast. Both books are a complete mess, structurally.

[Yeade]

I don't understand why ending on a cliffhanger with the assassination plot against Jon also requires that we don't get any resolution to what is happening outside Winterfell.

Well, my thinking's that the reader needs to believe alongside Jon that there's some truth to the Pink Letter or Jon's actions in response will seem even more obvious as a plot device for GRRM to drive Bowen Marsh to the suicidal folly of knifing Jon in the open courtyard of Castle Black with men of the NW, wildlings, queensmen, and northmen arriving in haste, all spoiling for a fight. Assuming, of course, GRRM's written the attempted assassination into the story to accomplish ends besides being the biggest cliffhanger in ADWD.

To be sure, I suppose letting the reader know of what's likely to be Stannis's victory in the battle for Winterfell can serve the purpose of getting people riled up about Jon being stabbed over a bunch of lies. Personally, though, I don't feel this is as powerful a storytelling technique as having the audience sympathize with Jon's dilemma in answering the Pink Letter and even Marsh's fear of retribution by the Boltons now that Stannis is supposedly dead.

I'm also of the opinion that Jon's plan to march south with a wildling army may yet happen in TWOW. (Else why is his and Tormund's two-hour council kept a secret?) So, again, I believe this requires the Pink Letter to be seen as a legitimate threat by characters and readers alike.

Granted, Stannis's preparations for the battle could've been included. Specifically, showing that Stannis orders Theon and Jeyne to be escorted to the Wall or the like would've been quite effective in creating suspense about the Pink Letter's veracity. Doing this has the additional benefit of not leaving Jon's last ADWD chapter as isolated as it seems to me coming as it does ten chapters of totally unrelated southern and eastern stuff after his penultimate POV, followed by another three chapters, including epilogue, of more totally unrelated southern and eastern stuff.

My understanding is that Jon's cliffhanger was added to the book late in the editing process. This is apparent in the somewhat rougher, if not outright confusing, writing, IMO, and how there's pretty much nothing to transition gracefully from what's basically a run of POVs, a baker's dozen, set everywhere except the North to the lead POV on the Wall.

On the bright side, lol, I think there's an opportunity here to both make Jon's expected revival dramatic and condense what I see as a necessary reorganization of the forces at the Wall, particularly the NW, into the summarized reminiscences of the characters involved. My proposal's that Bowen Marsh be given the prologue in TWOW so he can clarify his motivations and whatever the hell conspiracy he may or may not be part of. Jon turns up at the end to chop Marsh's head off (shades of UnCat!) and doesn't reappear until the Winterfell cast catches up on the timeline in a sort of mini-cliffhanger similar to the prologue of ASOS. No need for tedious POVs of Jon warging in Ghost or Melisandre swanning about in the chaotic aftermath of the assassination attempt. Any of the information these chapters could possibly provide can be conveyed just as effectively and much faster, IMO, through Marsh's POV in addition to later introspection by Jon, Melisandre, and Bran.

But I digress! I hope I've answered your original question. ^_^

[The Taupe Grace]

I'd add that I think the laziness of the resolution to A Feast for Crows is even worse. Basically, that book doesn't have any real plot at all for Sansa and Arya. Sam's story is just a travelogue that ends at the point where it should be beginning (besides giving Sam a chance to fuck Gilly, what exactly was accomplished in padding out Sam's journey to last the entire novel? Even his encounter with Arya, which could have been a highlight, and could even have been a good means to get Arya the hell out of Braavos, was marginal and tangential). Brienne and Cersei's stories end in cliffhangers, with no resolution, and Jaime's story doesn't even really end at all. Only the Dorne and Iron Islands sections have any kind of natural story arc. Then, when we catch up with these characters again, briefly, in A Dance with Dragons, things don't proceed any further. We don't get any real resolution to Brienne's cliffhanger; instead Jaime just gets caught up into what is essentially the same cliffhanger. Two chapters of Cersei and a chapter of Kevan don't get us very far beyond where we were at the end of Cersei's story in Feast, and two chapters of Arya continue to have no real plot. To top it all off is another chapter from Areo Hotah's useless point of view (all of the Dorne material should have been from Arianne's POV, imo) which could easily have come at the end of Feast. Both books are a complete mess, structurally.

Completely agree with you - somehow between book 1 and 4, it was suddenly okay to minutely detail every single day of a character's journey that would in previous books be covered in a single chapter, A to B, done. Slogging over Sam's journeys, Brienne's wanderings, Arya's sojourns was just painful.

I think GRRM's editors have their requisite share of blame for the laggardly pace of the last two books - this is a problem that you saw with Harry Potter as well, where the plot and length of the books sometimes spiralled out of control, and the quality of story was much less tight, and it's probably due to increasing editor shyness. As the prominence and fame of the author grows as the series goes on, editors are much less assertive in their criticism, so they let the author do what they feel like. Books become elephantine (DoD = Goblet of Fire)

To the editors of ASOIAF: get your shit together, and tell George to get his shit together, please.

[Fearsome Fred]

Possible explanation for the slow pace of 4 & 5:

GRRM was dragging his feet because he was worried that the impending death of Tyrion would hurt his chances of selling the series to HBO. :)

[Valkyrja]

That's actually an interesting idea, but what specifically makes you think Tyrion will die in TWoW? The greyscale issue? Dragon roasting? Or just that you think his whole arc is coming to a close (a la the rest of the Lannister family)?

I'm honestly curious.... :)

[Fearsome Fred]

That's actually an interesting idea, but what specifically makes you think Tyrion will die in TWoW? The greyscale issue? Dragon roasting? Or just that you think his whole arc is coming to a close (a la the rest of the Lannister family)?

I'm honestly curious.... :)

Well, it was a joke (sort of). But I do have a theory of sorts, that I am playing with.

I suspect Tyrion is inspired by Fafnir, the dwarf of Norse legend, who slew his father, and then turned into a (talking) dragon, in order to guard his father's golden hoard. I suspect that Tyrion will achieve this by warging into a dragon upon his death, the way Varymir did with his wolf. Tyrion's mention of legends of dragons that speak (which he does not believe) are more foreshadowing of this, as are his fiery dragon-dreams, his dreams of turning the Vale into a smoking wasteland, his fondless for charred bacon, etc., etc.. I suspect the dragon-binding horn (which Victarion will force him to use) may be the mechanism by which he achieves this. If so, this is about to happen.

One purpose of the Sixskins chapter is to set a precedent for for the revelation that Tyrion remains alive in another form, so it does not seem like too much of a cheat.

[greywindsrage]

I understand what you're getting at but what impresses me about GRRM is that he doesn't do what most readers obviously want. He can't just get up and have Daenerys be wise and all knowing when she is still just a teenager. He has to show her growing. As much as it annoyed me to see her make foolish mistakes it made sense because it makes her appear more realistic. In AFFC I must say that I enjoyed reading Cersei's ,Brienne and Jaime's chapters. I loved seeing how Cersei was unable to handle the position of power. After all she did to achieve it , she only ends up defeating herself. Plus we get to see the POV of someone who isn't honorable and noble but decietful and cruel.

Despite what he did to Bran , Jaime Lannister has become one of my favourite characters in the series. This because he is such a realist. It can be argued that he is much more honest than Ned, the only difference being that what he says hurts, whereas Eddard does his best not to insult anyone. His meeting with Bryden Tully is one of my favourite passages in AFFC. Brienne's chapters provide the adventure and suspense and we get to meet Samwells cold and rigid father Lord Tarly. Most importantly we get a lot of backstorys in AFFC. I really enjoy reading about the history of Westeros whatever it might be that GRRM is decscribing.

Although some people see him as a fool I consider Victarion to be my favorite Greyjoy. He is such a badass, a tragic one at that.

[greywindsrage]

Yes ADWD leaves you wanting more but it does deliver. I have read the chapter in which Jon executes Janos Slynt at least 7 times and I've listened to it on audio 5 times. It's been a longtime coming and GRRM couldn't have done it better.

I hate Theon for his crimes against the Starks but his chapters are brilliant. Any chapter which involves the North is gonna hold my interest. Plus to see Theon suffer fills me with such joy it's indescribable.

Davos' chapters are EXCELLENT because we learn of Lord Manderlys true intentions and we discover that we will see Rickon, Osha and Shaggydog in TWOW.

Tyrion returns. Nuff Said.

We see Drogon cause havoc and The Dragon Tamer chapter is arguably my favourite in ADWD.

However most importantly we see Ceresi's Walk of Shame. OOOHH how sweet that was. It's almost better than having her head chopped off.

If there is anything that I'll want to complain about then it would be the 6 years it took GRRM to create this but you can't hurry greatness.

[jlk7e]

On the bright side, lol, I think there's an opportunity here to both make Jon's expected revival dramatic and condense what I see as a necessary reorganization of the forces at the Wall, particularly the NW, into the summarized reminiscences of the characters involved. My proposal's that Bowen Marsh be given the prologue in TWOW so he can clarify his motivations and whatever the hell conspiracy he may or may not be part of. Jon turns up at the end to chop Marsh's head off (shades of UnCat!) and doesn't reappear until the Winterfell cast catches up on the timeline in a sort of mini-cliffhanger similar to the prologue of ASOS. No need for tedious POVs of Jon warging in Ghost or Melisandre swanning about in the chaotic aftermath of the assassination attempt. Any of the information these chapters could possibly provide can be conveyed just as effectively and much faster, IMO, through Marsh's POV in addition to later introspection by Jon, Melisandre, and Bran. But I digress! I hope I've answered your original question. ^_^

Yeah, that makes sense. I agree with you that a Bowen Marsh prologue would be a much more efficient way to get across what's going on on the Wall than tedious Jon in Ghost and Melisandre POVs. But I'm not at all confident that Martin is interested in efficient storytelling at this point.

In response to greywindsrage, I'll just say that my problem with the last two books has very little to do with problems with individual chapters, and much more to do with the (lack of) structure of those two books. And also that, much as I dislike Cersei as a character, I find it disturbing how much some readers seem to enjoy her humiliation, which I found deeply disturbing (and which was, I think, intended to be so).