R+L=J v.25

[sillent]

Hey, so I dont know if this has been thought of before or not,(starwars scenario) but what if Lyanna had twins at the Tower of Joy when she ran in with Ned. They weren't identical twins, and so one happened to take the Stark characteristics that was Jon Snow whilst the other took Targ characteristics. In trying to keep them safe and giving them their best shot, Ned agreed to take Jon back to Winterfell and raise him as his own, whilst the exiled knight + lemore(whoever she is) would take the other (Aegon) to Essos where they would educate him from there.

Varys could have been in on this, or just the Aegon part -- or he could've heard from his birdies that these important people were taking care of a Targ in Essos, and he realized that the age differences were close enough that they could make him the Aegon that had apparently died and use him as a pawn to take Westeros.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Hey, so I dont know if this has been thought of before or not,(starwars scenario) but what if Lyanna had twins at the Tower of Joy when she ran in with Ned. They weren't identical twins, and so one happened to take the Stark characteristics that was Jon Snow whilst the other took Targ characteristics. In trying to keep them safe and giving them their best shot, Ned agreed to take Jon back to Winterfell and raise him as his own, whilst the exiled knight + lemore(whoever she is) would take the other (Aegon) to Essos where they would educate him from there.

Varys could have been in on this, or just the Aegon part -- or he could've heard from his birdies that these important people were taking care of a Targ in Essos, and he realized that the age differences were close enough that they could make him the Aegon that had apparently died and use him as a pawn to take Westeros.

But why would they give him Aegon's identity? If he is Rhaegar's true born son, his claim would be good enough on its own. No need to give him a fake identity.

[Ygrain]

"Puerperal fever could occur up to a fortnight after the delivery and last for a couple more days. If Lyanna didn't die of this, I really have no idea what the combination of "bed of blood" and fever might mean."

A dagger or sword can give you a gored stomach, bloody bed and Tears of Lys or a crannog dart can give you fever. Just too many unknowns to say that we have "cracked" Martin's riddle.

Any infection, plus more than a couple of other causes, can give you fever, but only childbirth is referred to in connection with "bed of blood" throughout the series. Neither of the causes you mention is based on any textual evidence, they do not make any sense in Lyanna's situation, and do not explain why Ned travelled to Tower of Joy in a small company of most trustworthy companions (mind you, the war has barely ended, travelling was not safe)

[Ygrain]

Hey, so I dont know if this has been thought of before or not,(starwars scenario) but what if Lyanna had twins at the Tower of Joy when she ran in with Ned. They weren't identical twins, and so one happened to take the Stark characteristics that was Jon Snow whilst the other took Targ characteristics. In trying to keep them safe and giving them their best shot, Ned agreed to take Jon back to Winterfell and raise him as his own, whilst the exiled knight + lemore(whoever she is) would take the other (Aegon) to Essos where they would educate him from there. Varys could have been in on this, or just the Aegon part -- or he could've heard from his birdies that these important people were taking care of a Targ in Essos, and he realized that the age differences were close enough that they could make him the Aegon that had apparently died and use him as a pawn to take Westeros.

So far, I haven't seen GRRM go against the simple Mendelian genetics model. The Starks never intermarried with Targaryens, or with Dornes, for that matter, and their bloodline therefore does not contain the gene for silver hair, so a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna cannot have silver hair.

[sillent]

But why would they give him Aegon's identity? If he is Rhaegar's true born son, his claim would be good enough on its own. No need to give him a fake identity.

Since the whole R+L thing is a mystery to the realm, some would claim him to be a bastard of Rhaegar when he raped Lyanna (or even if it was mutual he wasnt married to Lyanna) it would be easier to unite the realms if he was the son of R+E.

[sillent]

So far, I haven't seen GRRM go against the simple Mendelian genetics model. The Starks never intermarried with Targaryens, or with Dornes, for that matter, and their bloodline therefore does not contain the gene for silver hair, so a child of Rhaegar and Lyanna cannot have silver hair.

Sansa is said to have Auburn hair that she got from her mother... so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that a kid could get the silver hair gene from the non-stark (in this case Rhaegar)

[Ygrain]

Sansa is said to have Auburn hair that she got from her mother... so it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to say that a kid could get the silver hair gene from the non-stark (in this case Rhaegar)

For a recessive trait to become manifest, the child must inherit a copy of the gene from each parent. It is not a stretch to assume that there was at least one red-haired ancestor in Ned's bloodline and Ned himself possessed only one copy of the gene, therefore it did not affect his own hair colour but became manifest in his children who ALL inherited a copy from Catelyn (her genetic code has two copies, out of which one is always passed on), but only those who inherited a copy from Ned, as well, had auburn hair.

[Buried Treasure]

Hey, so I dont know if this has been thought of before or not,(starwars scenario) but what if Lyanna had twins at the Tower of Joy when she ran in with Ned. They weren't identical twins, and so one happened to take the Stark characteristics that was Jon Snow whilst the other took Targ characteristics. In trying to keep them safe and giving them their best shot, Ned agreed to take Jon back to Winterfell and raise him as his own, whilst the exiled knight + lemore(whoever she is) would take the other (Aegon) to Essos where they would educate him from there.

A big clue for getting to R+L=J was the promises Ned made to Lyanna and spent 14 years paying the price of keeping. The argument being that the only promise that makes sense is the one to protect her child. If we add in another child that Ned merrily waved on his way and never thought of again then the clue makes no sense again - Ned has now only kept half his promise.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Since the whole R+L thing is a mystery to the realm, some would claim him to be a bastard of Rhaegar when he raped Lyanna (or even if it was mutual he wasnt married to Lyanna) it would be easier to unite the realms if he was the son of R+E.

Actually, the realm does know that the three Kingsguard members fought Ned at the Tower of Joy which is the best evidence for the king being present at the Tower. The realm also knows that shortly after the altercation, Ned Stark supposedly had a bastard. It is kind of strange to me that no one in the realm suspects R+L=J. However, if there was a twin and it is in fact Aegon(which I don't believe), the r+l=j story might actually be an easier sell to the realm than the baby swapping story.

There's also a ton of evidence that Aegon is a Blackfyre pretender.

[Dragonfish]

Actually, the realm does know that the three Kingsguard members fought Ned at the Tower of Joy which is the best evidence for the king being present at the Tower.

Actually, we don't know what the realm knows regarding the Kingsguard and the Tower of Joy. We can safely assume they believe Ned killed Ser Arthur Dayne, since that is what Ned tells Bran; however, we can't assume that the realm knows the full details of Ned's fight with the Kingsguard. It's possible he told people that he came across the Kingsguard near Starfall, preparing to set sail to Dragonstone, or something like that.

[MyLifeIsNotSoPrecious]

Actually, we don't know what the realm knows regarding the Kingsguard and the Tower of Joy. We can safely assume they believe Ned killed Ser Arthur Dayne, since that is what Ned tells Bran; however, we can't assume that the realm knows the full details of Ned's fight with the Kingsguard. It's possible he told people that he came across the Kingsguard near Starfall, preparing to set sail to Dragonstone, or something like that.

Well Ned built the cairns at the site of the ToJ so that would kind of give away the location. But I suppose Ned might have never told people who is in the cairns or that he found Lyanna at that location so you're probably right.

[lojzelote]

For a recessive trait to become manifest, the child must inherit a copy of the gene from each parent. It is not a stretch to assume that there was at least one red-haired ancestor in Ned's bloodline and Ned himself possessed only one copy of the gene, therefore it did not affect his own hair colour but became manifest in his children who ALL inherited a copy from Catelyn (her genetic code has two copies, out of which one is always passed on), but only those who inherited a copy from Ned, as well, had auburn hair.

This will be off-topic, but you appear to have the knowledge and I´m curious . . . (Please, bear with me, I´m an utter layman. :blush: )

Can alleles be mixed? I´m asking because I´m almost perfect mixture of my parents: My father has curly brown hair and grey-green eyes and my mother straight, nearly platinum blonde hair and azure eyes, but I came out with wavy hair of darker shade of blond (not much) and with dark grey eyes. The same goes for my features. Neither of my parents has dominant or submissive genes, it seems. (It´s also interesting to note that three of my grandparents had brown hair. So much for the famous submissive blonde gene.)

[Teal'c]

This will be off-topic, but you appear to have the knowledge and I´m curious . . . (Please, bear with me, I´m an utter layman. :blush: )

Can alleles be mixed? I´m asking because I´m almost perfect mixture of my parents: My father has curly brown hair and grey-green eyes and my mother straight, nearly platinum blonde hair and azure eyes, but I came out with wavy hair of darker shade of blond (not much) and with dark grey eyes. The same goes for my features. Neither of my parents has dominant or submissive genes, it seems. (It´s also interesting to note that three of my grandparents had brown hair. So much for the famous submissive blonde gene.)

OK, here's your science homework assignment:

Search on Wiki for explanations of dominant genes, recessive genes, and independent assortment. When you understand those terms, read about incomplete dominance and polygenic traits.

No you're not adopted and you don't need to look up what the postman looks like...

[Eddward Stark]

^ Two people with brown hair can have a child with blonde hair, because brown hair would be a dominant gene, so each could carry a recessive blonde gene. However, a person with two brown-hair genes could not have a child with blonde hair. Likewise, two people with blonde hair could not have a child with brown hair, since there is a 100% chance of every child receiving two blonde-hair genes.

[sillent]

I mean has there been a mention anywhere that the Targ silver hair acts exactly the same as blonde hair on Earth?

Rhaegars other kids were probably Targ (silver) with Elia being the mother.. while I agree it is unlikely I dont think we can be 100% certain what color hair a Stark+Targ coupling would produce.

[Ygrain]

This will be off-topic, but you appear to have the knowledge and I´m curious . . . (Please, bear with me, I´m an utter layman. :blush: ) Can alleles be mixed? I´m asking because I´m almost perfect mixture of my parents: My father has curly brown hair and grey-green eyes and my mother straight, nearly platinum blonde hair and azure eyes, but I came out with wavy hair of darker shade of blond (not much) and with dark grey eyes. The same goes for my features. Neither of my parents has dominant or submissive genes, it seems. (It´s also interesting to note that three of my grandparents had brown hair. So much for the famous submissive blonde gene.)

LOL, I'm not _that_ knowledgeable. In RL, hair colour is a polygenic trait and cannot be determined as easily as in Westeros :D I even hear it is actualy possible for two blondes to have dark-haired children... So, yeah, your mixture is perfectly normal :-)

[Ygrain]

I mean has there been a mention anywhere that the Targ silver hair acts exactly the same as blonde hair on Earth? Rhaegars other kids were probably Targ (silver) with Elia being the mother.. while I agree it is unlikely I dont think we can be 100% certain what color hair a Stark+Targ coupling would produce.

Dunno, but since light colours generally tend to be recessive and dark colours dominant, I think blonde is quite a safe analogy. We see a bloodline of silver-haired people, who remain strictly silver-haired when they interbreed but whose children with partners outside the lineage tend to inherit dark hair, which suggests recessiveness of the trait.

Rhaenys was dark-haired after Elia, Aegon silver-haired (there was a Targ in the Martell bloodline); with Targ+Stark, the silver should not be there, but yeah, what do we know.

[lojzelote]

OK, here's your science homework assignment:

Search on Wiki for explanations of dominant genes, recessive genes, and independent assortment. When you understand those terms, read about incomplete dominance and polygenic traits.

No you're not adopted and you don't need to look up what the postman looks like...

LOL, I´ve never doubted my mother´s honor. :)

I read the article about recessive genes, then I went and asked my father about possible blondes in his family. My paternal grandmother´s father was a dirty blonde, otherwise there were only brown-haired people and one redhead. It must be it. It seems I´ve won in a lottery, great-grandfather is quite a distanced relation.

Still, I´m shocked. I´ve always wanted blonde children - one more criterion to add to the list of my ideal partner´s qualities! :D

Thanks for all the helpful answers!

[Lady Octarina]

Whoa! I stay away for a few days and look how much has been posted already! :eek:

Okay, I finished reading v.24 and I'd like to comment on something Alia mentioned there, before I read these five pages on v.25:

However, it seems the Starks themselves, (if Ned is an example), can't control, or are unaware of themselves as Wargs, and perhaps no longer believe those tales anymore either

But, perhaps that is because Ned is perhaps the most "Southron" of Rickards children being fostered as he was with Robert, and married to Cat in the tradition of The Seven.

I think that's a great point, and it seems to me it gives some relevance to that old theory that maybe Rhaegar managed to convince Lyanna to go with him not through love or promises to allow her to carry a sword or something; maybe she was, indeed, more into old northern legends and saw something in those prophecies he loved that matched with the stories she loved as a child, but on a different version, believed in it and was sufficiently impressed by that to go South with him. I mean, the fact that we haven't heard any indications that she was as prophecy-obsessed as Rhaegar shouldn't mean she wasn't indeed, since our only sources on Lyanna are people who didn't know her that well. yes, that includes Ned, who spent the last ten years or so of her life in the Eyrie. And anyway, as you said, he probably had more of a southern mind through being raised by Jon Arryn, so why would he consider mentioning her love for old legends as something of any relevance? (btw, I do forget, was it really never mentioned?)

Also, that would be another reason why we might still get to meet Old Nan (if she wasn't proclaimed dead yet, there's no reason to assume we'll never see her again). So far, Old Nan's relevance was in introducing Bran to all those stories that, in a way or another, prepared him for what he will have to do, but now he has the Reeds, the CotF, and Bloodraven, who are much better sources. So why keep her alive if not to reveal something specifically on the Starks' past, even if recent?

[The guy from the Vale]

Good idea. Indeed, the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna has creepy parallels to the story of Bael the Bard, a story Lyanna might well have known. Of course, that's just the start of it, but what if Lyanna, while being as willful as Arya, also had a liking for stories like Sansa (as seen by her sniffling at Rhaegar's song), and wanted to relive the story of Bael the Bard? Alas, Bael and the Stark daughter survived their year in hiding... while in Lyanna's case, everything went wrong.