Blisscraft Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 In ASOS in addition to the RW prophecy there's, "Under the sea, the old fish eat the young fish, . . ." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormund_BloggersBane Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Wouldn't Starfish refer to the Karstarks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blisscraft Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 If you look in the Concondance, the House Ruthermont's heraldry is five black starfish. I don't know if this helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabronius Maximus Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 I thought the Karstarks were the suns of winter or something like that? They could be Patchface's starfish, but who knows.I was thinking, though, are we putting far too much stock in this guys prophecies (which are strangely correct anyway)? I think he serves a great purpose, but more so as a literary device than anything else. To me, Patchface is just Martin's way of saying "look here, we have all these devoted religious nuts predicting various things, taking their arts very seriously, but this random fool is just as good at the predicting" - IE Prophecy = a fool's work, not something you'd hitch your wagon to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tormund_BloggersBane Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 ...couldn't get on here for a while.I think the Crabs would be reference to the Celtigars. They'd be very relevant to both Stannis, because they are sworn to him, but turned cloaks after Blackwater, and to the Manderlys because of their proximity to White Harbor.That's interesting PT King, but I think just the opposite. That importance can be derived from unlikely sources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisandDaeny Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Grayscale?That's cold man, real cold x') She seems to enjoy living as much as anyone when there's at least someone around for her to play with (like Edric Storm). While I'm getting used to goriness and such the slaughter of actual children is not something I look forward to on any sort of level even in ASOIAF. But it's not impossible, we've had the miller's boys, Cley and I'm probably missing some... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capon Breath Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Grayscale?My favourite creepy thing ive seen proposed about Patchface is that he is a kind on "Typhoid Mary" carrier of Grayscale via Shireen as its said to be fine in kids but Mortal in Adults. This is the reason for Mels "Bloody lips" vision as he is a vector to spread Grayscale all over Westeros.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisandDaeny Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 I don't know who thought it was a good idea to have an insane jester that's pretty much distrusted by the gal running the show to be the girl's best friend. Someone ought to get little Shireen some real friends. Were there really no other kids living on Dragonstone? None? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuckTFD Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 I don't know who thought it was a good idea to have an insane jester that's pretty much distrusted by the gal running the show to be the girl's best friend. Someone ought to get little Shireen some real friends. Were there really no other kids living on Dragonstone? None?Edric Storm was her friend while he was on Dragonstone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StannisandDaeny Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Yeah but that was only for a limited amount of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mediumjon Umber Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 I don't necessarily think that Patchface will be important later on in the series, however after the prophecy with him having bloody lips, I have my doubts.But I've always thought that he alongside Damphair have been in the books as evidence that Cthul... sorry, the Drowned God is a real and scary thing. Their presence reminds us that the sea is a dark and terrible abyss and a force to be reckoned with.I'm also of the conviction that the Drowned God and R'hllor are different aspects of the same god, as is the Great Other and the Storm God. Other pantheons doesn't really include deities. The Seven could've been mortal paragons once (well, apart from the Stranger, who celarly stands out from the rest and could be the Manyfaced God/SG/Great Other) who were made gods by later generations, the Old Gods is a nature religion and what the people worship is really the forces of nature and/or the activities of the children of the forest and greenseers, while the Many-faced God could be an aspect of the Storm God/Great Other but it could also be worship of death itself.Now, I don't have any real evidence for this, except the unclear connections between the two gods:The Drowned God and the Storm God have been mortal enemies for a long time, just as R'hllor have been with the Great Other."What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder and stronger" and the resurrection by fire used by Red priests. Also "harder and stronger" and the resurrected Lady Stoneheart... And also Patchface, who apparently drowns and is returned to life, but clearly changed. The same can be said for Damphair, who was a drunk as a youth, but after his "resurrection" became a harder, more devout man.The Drowned God is said to have brought flames from the sea and sailed the world with fire and steel. R'hllor is the god of fire. Fire and steel = Lightbringer? Could DG be an allegory for AA?I could be way off on this one but could the Grey King and Azor Ahai be the same? And Nissa Nissa = Nagga? Well, not the same, but allegories of the same story. Both end with GK/AA getting what he wants after killing someone: GK a hall where Nagga's eternal fire burns and AA a burning sword. I think there are as many (or few :P) similarities beween GK and AA as there are between AA and the last hero..Similarly, drowned men intone: "Let ... your servant be born again from the sea, as you were. Bless him with salt, bless him with stone, bless him with steel" and it is said that AA will be reborn among salt and smoke. Again, rebirth and AA.The Storm God, residing in the hall of clouds, is the god of storms who lures the Ironborn to their deaths while the Great Other is the god of darkness, cold and death. Clouds, darkness, storms, cold. Farfetched maybe, but there are some similarities between those aspects.Farfetched maybe, but while rereading the books I can't stop thinking about the similarities between DG/SG and R'hllor/GO. I hope I might at least be slightly right about this, so I know I didn't believe this conspiracy theory for nothing.But yeah, to get on topic (sorry), I think Patchface is more of a prophet for the DG. He himself isn't as important as the deity he worships, although he might be doing some nasty things in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelican Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 A starfish is a symbol of regeneration and is also known as a seastar. Maybe Patchface is a descendant of Bloodraven and Sheira Seastar. That might explain why the raven seemed to be addressing him and his gift of foresight... Would that also put him in line for the Iron Throne? (He wouldn't be the first king who was a fool.) "Starfish soup" might refer to unexpected claimants to the throne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrypticWeirwood Posted June 4, 2012 Share Posted June 4, 2012 I think we should look for some other interpretation of “under the sea” than its meaning plain old death. There are too many of his sayings where death doesn’t fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrja Posted June 5, 2012 Share Posted June 5, 2012 I already explained this in my first post. The crab is the sigil of House Borrell — Lord Godric rules Sweetsister, and he's the one who sends Davos to White Harbor ("the serving men are crabs"). The starfish is trickier I admit, and no, it's not "certain" (unless you have a better idea that you'd like to share?), but it has five "fingers" and resembles a hand. Davos is Stannis' Hand, "served" to the mermen (Manderlys) by the crab (Lord Borrell).Sorry, I should have read more closely. Thanks for explaining again. :) I certainly don't have a better answer at this point, I was just curious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bemused Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 With the starfish soup bit, I'm drawn to cryptic weirwood's point about starfish regenerating appendages . Manderly did mount Davos' head and hands on spikes , he's believed dead ...yet there he is, off to search for Rickon.ETA: Could "under the sea " equally refer to his prophetic sight , which may have come to him when he was under the sea? .. As an announcement , standing in for " I prophesy.."And Mel seeing blood on his lips could simply be because so many of his prophecies are of death. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordDolorousEdd Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 "“Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”Correct me if I am wrong but isn't gree black and blue the three colours that dragon glass candles can be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Over Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 In ASOS in addition to the RW prophecy there's, "Under the sea, the old fish eat the young fish, . . ."This one was tricky but because he said it to Davos, i assumed it either refers to Edric Storm, Shireen or possibly another child who will be sacrificed to further the ambitions of the adults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonSpawn Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 That's cold man, real cold x') She seems to enjoy living as much as anyone when there's at least someone around for her to play with (like Edric Storm). While I'm getting used to goriness and such the slaughter of actual children is not something I look forward to on any sort of level even in ASOIAF. But it's not impossible, we've had the miller's boys, Cley and I'm probably missing some...It's not something i'd like to see... But the first shocker was Rhaego dying in the womb on Danys due date... But three dragons came from it... So it's difficult not to admit its a fundamental part of the story world GRRMs created? Dragons in prophecies are sometimes people too... So if Shireen sees herself being eaten by a Dragon, it may be a person that is being referred to. Its the innocence of our own minds that make us think of one of Danys dragons as more likely and more easily forgivable than a person. Despite the close proximity to Skagos, the Others and the limited Winter resources availble to feed everyone at the Wall... And we have the vision of Patchface with blood on his mouth... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted June 7, 2012 Share Posted June 7, 2012 After reading the other prophecies, I kind of agree with CrypticWeirwood that "under the sea" should be broadened a bit and seems to include more than just "death." It might just be, as someone suggested, interchangeable with Patchface going into a prophetic trance of some sort. "Under the sea ..." -> "Things I see in prophecy."And Mel seeing blood on his lips could simply be because so many of his prophecies are of death.That's how I always read it. He speaks his prophecies from his mouth, and they all seem to point to doom and gloom and death."“Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”Correct me if I am wrong but isn't gree black and blue the three colours that dragon glass candles can be?Yes, I think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordDolorousEdd Posted June 8, 2012 Share Posted June 8, 2012 I have no clue what the prophesy means as a whole but i am sure that “Under the sea, smoke rises in bubbles, and flames burn green and blue and black,” Patchface sang somewhere. “I know, I know, oh, oh, oh.”refers to the dragon glass candles...... anyone have any theories about how it could tie in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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