I think Robb killed all his men...

[I'll pay the iron price]

Well if Robb hadnt of accepted his impromptu crowning his bannermen would have been left wondering what sort of weak leader they had!

[Somnus]

Well I liked Robb and Ned, yet I always thought they paid for their mistakes.

Ned was stupid and naive, and paid for it with his life, he life of his family (the ones that aren't dead are still struggling). Robb was also naive and and careless, so he paid the price for it, his life, Winterfell and the Stark family becoming "extinct".

Simple as that, just because someone likes a character it doesn't mean we don't know they fucked up.

[danm_999]

Without his input? His input was absent because he chose not to speak.

So then if a group of people crown him without his input, it's a bit hard to say he was being selfish and ignoring the wishes of his people. It was a foolish political move I grant, because it made peace with Renly and Stannis all but impossible.

[Castel]

So then if a group of people crown him without his input, it's a bit hard to say he was being selfish and ignoring the wishes of his people. It was a foolish political move I grant, because it made peace with Renly and Stannis all but impossible.

Robb has a duty to people other than the Greatjon and the minority that sat at that table. There were probably all sorts of knights and minor lords and men-at-arms and villagers who were not sitting there and shouting for him to be crowned. And thankfully he is in charge, if everyone decided that he should be king and he found that it was disadvantageous he should have said something regardless of how those people in the room felt.

It's not like they can go against his word when they were willing to crown him a few seconds ago.

ETA: I don't think that he was particularly selfish (although he really, really should have stuck with Stannis or Renly), he probably just wasn't thinking of those things, it's a big moment for anyone, let alone a sixteen year old, but let's not pretend that he didn't have a choice.

[danm_999]

Robb has a duty to people other than the Greatjon and the minority that sat at that table.

It wasn't a table, it was Riverrun's Great Hall full of the lords of the North and the Trident. They'd just broken the siege of Riverrun, so all the prominent families were there.

There were probably all sorts of knights and minor lords and men-at-arms and villagers who were not sitting there and shouting for him to be crowned.

There's no textual evidence for this. Catelyn's POV said the Northerners and the Riverlords assembled, even those who had never been ruled by the North before Aegon, bowed and called for the King of the North.

And thankfully he is in charge, if everyone decided that he should be king and he found that it was disadvantageous he should have said something regardless of how those people in the room felt.

If he openly defies the will of all his bannerman, he's not in charge anymore.

It's not like they can go against his word when they were willing to crown him a few seconds ago.

Of course they can. Their contention was they didn't want to be ruled by a Lannister, Renly or Stannis. That doesn't mean they can't pick someone else to represent them.

[Pommes]

It wasn't a table, it was Riverrun's Great Hall full of the lords of the North and the Trident. They'd just broken the siege of Riverrun, so all the prominent families were there. There's no textual evidence for this. Catelyn's POV said the Northerners and the Riverlords assembled, even those who had never been ruled by the North before Aegon, bowed and called for the King of the North. If he openly defies the will of all his bannerman, he's not in charge anymore.

And so he accepted, ok. But then Winterfell fell and Robb had the choice: Lead his men intodefeat and death or show some balls and accept that he can't win this war alone.

Allegiance with Stannis was THE ONLY CHOICE i can see which would not end in total defeat. And I don't think that his men would have abandoned him

[danm_999]

And so he accepted, ok. But then Winterfell fell and Robb had the choice: Lead his men intodefeat and death or show some balls and accept that he can't win this war alone.

Allegiance with Stannis was THE ONLY CHOICE i can see which would not end in total defeat.

By the time Winterfell had fallen, Stannis was about to lose the Battle of the Blackwater was he really wasn't going to be any help to Robb.

Plus, Stannis condition was that Robb was a traitor, and needed to step down as King. If Robb does that, he loses any support he has from his lords.

[Independent George]

The Red Wedding could not have been predicted, but but he knew the Twins were forever closed to him once he spurned the Freys. He just figured he wouldn't need them anymore. He was perfectly willing to toss aside an important ally when he didn't think he needed them, but expected them to take him back when he did because... well, just because. He's King of the North, and people have to listen to him.

So of course it's perfectly reasonable to expect Walder Frey to open up the Twins to him when he's losing the war, and incur Tywin Lannister's wrath so that Robb can march his army north, defeat the ironborn at Moat Caelin (which held off armies twenty times the size of Robb's), re-take the north with what's left of his army, and then come back around south in time to stop any reprisals from the combined Lannister/Tyrell forces which likely outnumber them 10-1. Of course Walder Frey will accept that - he's the King in the North. His Mom said so.

The point is, the war was lost the second he spurned the Freys and wed Jeyne. That was more important to him than independence for the north, the strength of his kingdom, the prospects for an honorable peace, or the lives of his bannermen. There is absolutely nothing honorable about that.

[Darth Rivers]

Nobody but GRRM saw the Red Wedding coming

I did. I was expecting a "night of the long knives" type scenario ever since Walder Frey offered such a simple way of making ammends, and the request for the wedding to happen immediately. The chapter of the red wedding was just reaffirming my suspicions - the emphasis on Robb eating his bread and salt, which pretty much sealed the deal. I knew he was going to be killed.

The fact that he had already pretty much lost the war already was also suggesting he would die soon.

ETA: Night of the long knives, as in, the original one, in which the Danes killed off the English nobles at a parley.

[bloodymime]

Well if Robb hadnt of accepted his impromptu crowning his bannermen would have been left wondering what sort of weak leader they had!

I don't agree with that. They are his bannermen, it's not a popularity contest and it's not a democracy, it's for them to do as he says. It's weak of Robb to let them make this decision that is not theirs to make. This is where he's a fifteen year old boy flush with a couple of victories and letting it go to his head.

[danm_999]

I don't agree with that. They are his bannermen, it's not a popularity contest and it's not a democracy, it's for them to do as he says. It's weak of Robb to let them make this decision that is not theirs to make. This is where he's a fifteen year old boy flush with a couple of victories and letting it go to his head.

Not all of them are his bannermen, they're a collection of lords who don't want to be ruled by Joffrey or Renly/Stannis. They would absolutely raise someone else if he didn't go along with it.

[bloodymime]

Not all of them are his bannermen, they're a collection of lords who don't want to be ruled by Joffrey or Renly/Stannis. They would absolutely raise someone else if he didn't go along with it.

Not sure where you're getting that. The riverlanders were angry with the Lannisters and were wanting to back Renly because of the numbers behind him. That still doesn't absolve Robb of his mistake. It's funny that Ned dies because he refuses to accept anyone but Staniss as the rightful ruler and Robb dies because he refuses to accept Stannis as the rightful ruler.

"What does Lord Stannis have against that, that we should cast it all aside?”

“The right,” said Robb stubbornly. Catelyn thought he sounded eerily like his father as he said it."

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I am in the minority but I never felt "close" to Robb in the books. Perhaps because he didn't have his own POV. Perhaps because the only glimpses into his character we see are through the lens of Catelyn who I mostly found annoying. The whole Jeyne thing pissed me off beyond belief. When he did it I thought, Ned Part II. Another dumb, naive Stark making dumb, naive decisions.

I KNEW something was going to happen when Robb decided to attend Edmure's wedding at the Twins. I mean, it was explicitly spelled out time and again that Walder Frey was notorious for holding grudges and that he was nefarious. How could he not be plotting something? What I thought would happen would be that the Starks would be ambushed but that they'd get some sort of heads up and be able to escape. I also never suspected Tywin's hand behind it all.

[Stark@heart]

My poor Robb is still getting the blame for the Red Wedding I see.

I didn't think there were that many Freys left running around. I'll have to get in touch with the BWB.

[danm_999]

Not sure where you're getting that.

That the Riverlanders were not his bannerman, that they did not have to do what he said. You were pretending he had final say over the people making this decision. The Northern Lords he did, the Lords of the Trident he could not force to do anything.

The riverlanders were angry with the Lannisters and were wanting to back Renly because of the numbers behind him.

There's zero mention of Renly when the Riverlanders make Robb king.

That still doesn't absolve Robb of his mistake.

It's not Robb's mistake, it's the Greatjon's primarily. His lords and the Riverlords put him in this decision.

It's funny that Ned dies because he refuses to accept anyone but Staniss as the rightful ruler and Robb dies because he refuses to accept Stannis as the rightful ruler.

"What does Lord Stannis have against that, that we should cast it all aside?”

“The right,” said Robb stubbornly. Catelyn thought he sounded eerily like his father as he said it."

An alliance with Stannis would not have helped Robb. An alliance with Renly would have.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I could have at least waited until AFTER the war was over before he decided to jilt Frey's daughter. He's the dumbest of the Stark kids and I don't understand the hero worship he gets on here. Arya, Sansa, Bran and Jon have all shown great moments of courage, intelligence and the sheer ability to SURVIVE (well, Jon, not so much the surviving part...).

Also, did he REALLY think meat and mead were going to be his shield???? His father thought a piece of paper would be his!

[danm_999]

He's the dumbest of the Stark kids and I don't understand the hero worship he gets on here.

See, this is what I don't get.

Fine, you can not like Robb, because there are ample reasons to fault him honestly, but pretending you don't understand why people like and venerate him is just being deliberately obtuse.

Or can you really not understand why 21st century readers might find his decision to marry for love more sympathetic than honouring a marriage contract to an unseen person?

[danm_999]

Also, did he REALLY think meat and mead were going to be his shield???? His father thought a piece of paper would be his!

Yeah guest right is kind of an established tradition though. So much so that everybody is cursing the Frey's after the Red Wedding, regardless of what side they're on.

[unRobert]

I could have at least waited until AFTER the war was over before he decided to jilt Frey's daughter. He's the dumbest of the Stark kids and I don't understand the hero worship he gets on here. Arya, Sansa, Bran and Jon have all shown great moments of courage, intelligence and the sheer ability to SURVIVE (well, Jon, not so much the surviving part...). Also, did he REALLY think meat and mead were going to be his shield???? His father thought a piece of paper would be his!

In the context of "all the laws of gods and men" yes meat and mead have been a shield in that culture since before the time of men.

And he's supposed to be a romanticized, naive, tragic character. Our young wolf!

And by your name I take you to be a Rheagar fan. The young wolf and the Prince of D-Stone had a lot in common. Both of them let their emotions and naivety in the ways of backstabbing politics get them killed along with their dynasty and family. Difference being Rheagar was smashed on the Trident, the young wolf murdered at dinner. Both tragic. Both fools. Both good characters for this.

[sToNED_CAT]

Leaving Roose Bolton behind to guard the rear set the stage for all that followed. Roose should have been kept close so that he couldn't have went behind Robb's back to plot with Tywin and Walder Frey. Without Roose's help the RW would not have been possible.

Actually Roose did nothing to suggest, that it would be mistake to leave him in charge of other part of army, except having unusually quite voice and unblinking stare. He was loyal bannerman to Ned in previous war and obviously competent enough to be given commmand.

I totally agree with the OP. I can't understand why most of the people think that Robb is a hero. Rob could have made an allegiance with Renly or Stannis and they would have won easily, would have killed the Lannisters and almost all of his people would still be alive. But no: Robb wanted to be King in the North. And all of his people died for this selfish reason.

Him making an alliance with Renly would have changed nothing, Renly would have been assasinated anyway. And Stannis? He was almost completely worthless as an ally, having no men and after Blackwater no ships.