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Who do you think will be the REAL Villain?


butterbumps!

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Okay I think I get it then. So Other and White Walkers are the same thing, and Sam killed an Other, not a wight, right?

RIght. The "White Walkers" are just another name for the Others, who are the "masters" of the wights as Tormund puts it. I think that the evidence-free speculation of the "heresy" proponents is creating confusion, possibly along with the TV show since it apparently uses "White Walkers" in the place of "Others," which is by far the most common term in the books. (I haven't seen the TV show yet since I've been out of the US since it came out on DVD and it's not available where I'm at.) I've seen no evidence in the books that "White Walkers" are anything other than Others, or are some kind of subcategory of Others, or whatever, but if anyone has any substantive textual evidence I'd still be happy to see it.

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did you guys all miss the point of Feast, as well as the Stark word? the true enemy is winter and the starvation it brings upon the common people

I agree with this. It's just that that the return of the Others brings about the possibility of the mother of all winters, AKA the The Long Winter, and I just think that the Others are the personification of this. The Stark Words can have several layers of meaning.

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A lot of other threads have been spilling into talk about who people think the real villain, bad guy, great evil to overcome will be. Do you think there's an epic villain or entity? Who or what do you think the "Final Boss/es" will be (and why?)

Some ideas tossed out from other recent threads:

(* my preferred theories)

ETA: Thnx Censored Wolf

Dany My favorite theory.

Euron F**K Yeah!

Littlefinger Villain next book. Will be done in by Sansa.

Bloodraven/ Bran Don't know about Bloodraven, but Bran should bring back the old magic to fight the winter.

Varys Brings Aegon to stabilize the realm. Dany screws it up.

Humans

Human use of Magic

Well the humans have been horrible for the most part.

Dragons Yes.

White Walkers Yes.

The Great Other (apparently, Hodor) Yes.

R'hllor Yes.

Gumpkin Army* Possibly.

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I think that it will probably the both the Others and the Dragons as forces of destruction, with "Extremes" being the "real villain," so to speak. The successful hero or heroes will restore balance, and that means getting rid of both the extremes of ice (Others) and the extremes of fire (dragons).
I believe the story is going somewhere like this. Any extremism in these stories is dangerous. Those whose serve the gods too fervently have a tendency to condemn others to deathhowever the gods clearly have power so ignoring them outright is probably not a good idea. Even the gods themselves may not be as clearly good or evil as it would seem. The lord of light inspires too much zealotry and human sacrificing for me to truly consider him as a force for good. As for the dragon, their potential for mass murder and destruction certainly gives them a darker image. However, at the opposite end of the spectrum the others are up to no good, although I am an not entirely sure that they do not have purpose or that they are entirely evil. Another example of extremism is the maesters. It seems that the maesters are trying to rid the world of magic or at least force it into the shadows which I don't think would be a good thing. On the other hand, a world full of magic is a world full of blood sacriifices and deadly creatures like the Others and dragons. A balance between all of the contending forces in the world, fire and ice, science and magice, life and death, would be the best outcome.
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I think the 'ultimate battle' will be between The Children of the Forest and The Others on one side and Azor Ahai/ Dragons/ R'hllor on the other. The villain depends on your perspective. There won't be a winner, the world of Westeros does not provide happy endings, only unending battles stemming from opposing religions, with humans merely acting as the pawns of their chosen belief system. And then in the end it shall be revealed that everything that occurred in the books is futile as there is no end to what cannot be defeated, just suppressed. (eg. The Others/ magic etc.)

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I believe the story is going somewhere like this. Any extremism in these stories is dangerous. Those whose serve the gods too fervently have a tendency to condemn others to deathhowever the gods clearly have power so ignoring them outright is probably not a good idea. Even the gods themselves may not be as clearly good or evil as it would seem. The lord of light inspires too much zealotry and human sacrificing for me to truly consider him as a force for good. As for the dragon, their potential for mass murder and destruction certainly gives them a darker image. However, at the opposite end of the spectrum the others are up to no good, although I am an not entirely sure that they do not have purpose or that they are entirely evil. Another example of extremism is the maesters. It seems that the maesters are trying to rid the world of magic or at least force it into the shadows which I don't think would be a good thing. On the other hand, a world full of magic is a world full of blood sacriifices and deadly creatures like the Others and dragons. A balance between all of the contending forces in the world, fire and ice, science and magice, life and death, would be the best outcome.

The old gods and weirwoods seem to me to embody such a balance. They seem to personify the natural world thriving.

(To those who claim they also require human sacrifice, Bran had to go way, way back into very barbaric ages to see a human being killed in any connection with a weirwood, and even that may have just been an ordinary execution, heavily ritualized as such things often are among preliterate people. There's no evidence that the COTF had anything to do with it.)

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I think the 'ultimate battle' will be between The Children of the Forest and The Others on one side and Azor Ahai/ Dragons/ R'hllor on the other. The villain depends on your perspective. There won't be a winner, the world of Westeros does not provide happy endings, only unending battles stemming from opposing religions, with humans merely acting as the pawns of their chosen belief system. And then in the end it shall be revealed that everything that occurred in the books is futile as there is no end to what cannot be defeated, just suppressed. (eg. The Others/ magic etc.)

Except that all evidence that actually appears in the text indicates that the Children of the Forest - "those who sing the songs of the earth," who appear to steward the balance of nature - are very actively working against the Others - who want to exterminate all living things - just as they did 8,000 years ago. The COTF, the old gods, the Night's Watch (when it remained true to its purpose) and the Starks (when they remember their own house words) all stand for the preservation of life, and against any kind of extreme.

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RIght. The "White Walkers" are just another name for the Others, who are the "masters" of the wights as Tormund puts it. I think that the evidence-free speculation of the "heresy" proponents is creating confusion, possibly along with the TV show since it apparently uses "White Walkers" in the place of "Others," which is by far the most common term in the books. (I haven't seen the TV show yet since I've been out of the US since it came out on DVD and it's not available where I'm at.) I've seen no evidence in the books that "White Walkers" are anything other than Others, or are some kind of subcategory of Others, or whatever, but if anyone has any substantive textual evidence I'd still be happy to see it.

Going further on the 'masters of the wights' bit....I've mentioned this before, but I have a theory that the wights are like puppets that the Others control via warging. I believe that this is how Bloodraven somehow took control of Coldhands, who is obviously a wight, and this also explains (1) how Sam was saved by all those ravens (it was BR), (2) how BR can communicate with Coldhands from afar, and (3) why Coldhands isn't attacking the humans like other wights, but actually helps them.

Except that all evidence that actually appears in the text indicates that the Children of the Forest - "those who sing the songs of the earth," who appear to steward the balance of nature - are very actively working against the Others - who want to exterminate all living things - just as they did 8,000 years ago. The COTF, the old gods, the Night's Watch (when it remained true to its purpose) and the Starks (when they remember their own house words) all stand for the preservation of life, and against any kind of extreme.

Yes, I completely agree with this. Also recall that the Children of the Forest used to give the Night's Watch 100 dragonglass blades per year, presumably for fighting the Others. The CotF are without a doubt in opposition to the Others.

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As far as the great villain, I think that after Littlefinger and Ramsay are gloriously killed in very satisfying ways, the legions of Others mounted on giant spiders and whatnot will be the main enemies. In my opinion, all the side stories about people playing the game of thrones are just for entertainment while the war is brewing...albeit rather slowly.

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My theory is that it will be Bloodraven. I believe that the next book will show that he is manipulating bran in an effort to increase his power and that the reemergence of the whitewalkers will be linked to his sorcery. In effect, i think he is raising a magical army of wrights to retake the kingdom that banished him. I can go on about all the different elements in play with bloodraven, but he is definatly my pick.

altough grumpkin army was a close second .

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My theory is that it will be Bloodraven. I believe that the next book will show that he is manipulating bran in an effort to increase his power and that the reemergence of the whitewalkers will be linked to his sorcery. In effect, i think he is raising a magical army of wrights to retake the kingdom that banished him. I can go on about all the different elements in play with bloodraven, but he is definatly my pick. altough grumpkin army was a close second .

And I thought I was being so discreet about It. :tantrum: :commie:

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The Great Other aka...Azor Ahai reborn, The Prince that was promised, the secret Targaryen, Jon Snow's parents (yes he is both of them), cause of the doom of Valyria...who else could it be but...HODOR!

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My theory is that it will be Bloodraven. I believe that the next book will show that he is manipulating bran in an effort to increase his power and that the reemergence of the whitewalkers will be linked to his sorcery. In effect, i think he is raising a magical army of wrights to retake the kingdom that banished him. I can go on about all the different elements in play with bloodraven, but he is definatly my pick. altough grumpkin army was a close second .

Interesting. It's always seemed to me that the war for the iron throne has been one big distraction from the real battle. The idea that the whole business with the others has really been about the throne all along certainly has a nice irony to it.

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altough grumpkin army was a close second .

I can't help but detect a note of sarcasm here. You can all mock, but if Usual Suspects has taught us anything, it's that:

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. And like that, poof. He's gone.
Just wait. They're coming.

Bloodraven's an interesting choice. I'm not sure where I stand on a single "boss," but what's compelling about this is that much like Jon, Bloodraven is also a "song of ice and fire" (Targ and Blackwood) and Ghost, Weirwoods and BR have striking similarities. Any further thoughts on what you think is going on there or why you think he's the villain?

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Bloodraven is definitely playing his own game for his own reasons, and I think it is a much bigger game then anyone else is playing. He is my pick for most dangerous villain and I am betting that some of our favorite characters are going to end up on his side.

Euron is a close second, I'm not sure what he's up too but I am sure it's gonna be big. He's too tied into too many of the mysteries from east to simply be another ambitious would be king.

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From what I've read or heard from various GRRM inerviews I thought he started this series with the dislike of the idea of "one great evil" or a Sauron if you will.

I think there will be evils that will put the wheels of plot into motion, but I think at the end of the series it will still be up to the readers to decide who we believed the hero(s) or evil(s) to be?

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