"Dany Thread of the Week" Part II

[QuaitheTheShadow]

Does anyone think that both Daenerys and Jon might end up becoming darker figures within the story? It seems that one of the running themes of ADwD is that attempts on both their parts to rule with compassion and a refusal to engage in morally questionable behavior proved disastrous for them personally and those they ruled over. Then there was that comment that GRRM made, that Jon would become a grayer figure as the story progressed, something I was looking forward to but which never really materialized, at least in my view, over the course of ADwD.

If nothing else, I imagine Jon won't be very pleased with his 'brothers' in the night's watch. . . .

I see Mel burning a whole murder of traitorous crows. :devil:

[Faint]

Well, to be clear, I don't think either of them are becoming villains in any sense. They are, quite clearly in my view, the two principle heroes of the story. But that does not preclude them from becoming more ruthless and using the same methods as Littlefinger, Tywin Lannister and the Queen of Thorns (albeit, for better causes).

As an example, Daenerys locked up her dragons after one killed a single child. In the future, she might simply see that as the sacrifice that must be made for having the dragons in the first place.

Likewise, Jon has been hesitant up till now about using Melisandre as a means of accomplishing his goals (even though the latter has been quite willing). In the future, Jon might prove more pliable (especially if Melisandre is the one to save his life).

I mean, am I the only one who thought the final chapter for the two of them proved a decisive change in their characters? Daenerys has at last embraced "fire and blood" and Jon has most definitively "killed the boy" (or, rather, had the boy killed for him).

[ARYa_Nym]

Does anyone think that both Daenerys and Jon might end up becoming darker figures within the story? It seems that one of the running themes of ADwD is that attempts on both their parts to rule with compassion and a refusal to engage in morally questionable behavior proved disastrous for them personally and those they ruled over. Then there was that comment that GRRM made, that Jon would become a grayer figure as the story progressed, something I was looking forward to but which never really materialized, at least in my view, over the course of ADwD.

I do.

Sam thought that he turned cold when became LC but he hasn't become more grey yet to me so I don't think AFFC/ADWD applies.

"Instead, he blamed Jon Snow and wondered when Jon’s heart had turned to stone."

"Jon, he’d said, but Jon was gone. It was Lord Snow who faced him now, grey eyes as hard as ice."

There wasn't anything in ADWD that I saw as less moral. He said that he wanted to bring death and destruction upon House Lannister for example and complained about Tommen still being alive while Bran was dead but I don't think that was of character for him.

The Gilly thing was cold at least towards Gilly but I don't think it was out of character for him either to do what he felt was necessary.

So I'm thinking that it will be the events at the end of ADWD that will do it.

[Faint]

Yeah, I think most of his change of character in ADwD was cosmetic. And the very fact that he was assassinated kind of brought home the point that he had never truly "killed the boy." He had that done for him. Luckily for him, he has plot armor and will get a do-over.

[A Time for Wolves]

ANYTHING but them hooking up would work for me. But I've resigned myself to it.

[Lord Martin Stark]

I want see Dany and Drogon burn about 10,000 people in a battle or something. Anything less would be a dissapointment for me...... I want Fire and Blood damnit

[GreyDeLeon]

“The dragon has three heads,” Dany said when they were on the final flight. “My marriage need not be

the end of all your hopes. I know why you are here.” aDoD Pg.575

Is this Dany thinking about or consenting to having more than one husband? Is it an accepted theory?

Even if Aegon is a Blackfyre it doesn't mean she will reject him, its the men how are toying with him she should be weary of. And Jon is the obvious other husband.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

“The dragon has three heads,” Dany said when they were on the final flight. “My marriage need not be the end of all your hopes. I know why you are here.” aDoD Pg.575 Is this Dany thinking about or consenting to having more than one husband? Is it an accepted theory? Even if Aegon is a Blackfyre it doesn't mean she will reject him, its the men how are toying with him she should be weary of. And Jon is the obvious other husband.

I don't think that Dany was specifically referring to marrying Quentyn in the bit you quoted. There's a basis within the story that a polygamous marriage of Dany's might serve the same basic function as Aegon's polygamous marriage to his sisters, but it's brought up by Jorah, not really in the context of Quentyn. However, the fact that it is acknowledged openly in the books makes me think that it probably won't come to pass and that the "three heads" means something else.

[GreyDeLeon]

But don't you think that some of these prophecies and foreshadowings are over analyzed. Maybe a tree is a tree.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But don't you think that some of these prophecies and foreshadowings are over analyzed. Maybe a tree is a tree.

In my experience, anything that is pushed too hard in one direction in the story ends up going the other way. It's just a pattern I've noticed.

If you think that prophecies and foreshadowing are overanalyzed,don't participate in those threads.

[GreyDeLeon]

Just an observation. Does anyone else correlate the red door with the red keep?

[butterbumps!]

Just an observation. Does anyone else correlate the red door with the red keep?

Yes, but a lot of other bits in Dany's arc don't necessarily correspond to the idea that the Red Keep is truly "her home."

[butterbumps!]

I've been wondering about the virtue in Dany's having significant husbands, especially Jon, and something feels wrong to me. There's some speculation (in various threads) that a union between Dany and Jon- whether passionate or simply contractual- will effect some kind of peace at the end- political unification and potentially a supernatural alliance to vanquish Winter. This reading hadn't occurred to me, so I wanted to ask where the foundations for this idea come from?

From what I'd gathered, it seems that part of this stems from R+L=J, that Jon might have some claim to the Iron Throne because of this union (as many theorists believe Rhaegar and Lyanna may have been married), and that he and Dany together will mutually reinforce their claims to the throne. I suppose this idea is further enhanced by the magical component, where it seems as though the two will be on the same side fighting the Others/ Winter, which suggests that there will be some form of alliance between them.

I think I've already belabored the magical aspects of this, but I'm wondering what the thoughts are about the idea of Dany marrying in the first place? I think she's kind of unique in that her power doesn't come from a "legitimate" patriarchal claim (despite the fact that she thinks it does), nor does it come from a marriage alliance- it came from the dragon pyre (whether consciously or not), and she's to express that power though "fire and blood." I think what I'm saying is that even though I'm not much of a Dany supporter, I felt it's been crucial to her arc that she remains the sole source of her power- she loses a lot of herself through the Jiz marriage, and I can't help but think that marriage is somewhat detrimental to her being powerful in her own right. The more I think this through, the more I think that the "bride of fire" has to refer to scenarios in which she has "wedded" herself to the use of fire (and I'm favoring the silver horse by the stream to be a vision after the Pyre more and more) and not the men possibly implicit in the visions-- maybe 3 times she will "temper" herself with fire, or something to that end.

So anyway, I was just interested in hearing thoughts from those who want to see Dany + Jon marry or those who think they will about the ramifications of this happening-- how would this union play out, and how would it affect the kingdom?

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

From what I'd gathered, it seems that part of this stems from R+L=J, that Jon might have some claim to the Iron Throne because of this union (as many theorists believe Rhaegar and Lyanna may have been married), and that he and Dany together will mutually reinforce their claims to the throne. I suppose this idea is further enhanced by the magical component, where it seems as though the two will be on the same side fighting the Others/ Winter, which suggests that there will be some form of alliance between them. I think I've already belabored the magical aspects of this, but I'm wondering what the thoughts are about the idea of Dany marrying in the first place?

The idea of the political alliance marriage just confuses the hell out of me. I don't see how it's beneficial or how it makes sense from the perspective of either of them. On the one hand. Dany doesn't need Jon to prop her up; she has (a) dragon(s). If she makes her claim through right of conquest, she's the monarch and doesn't need to derive power through a male. On the other hand, if we're going by straight Targaryen legal succession, Jon's claim is superior to hers. "But she can prove he's legitimate, no one will believe him otherwise!" But doesn't he also have to prove his legitimacy to her? If he could prove it to her, why could he not prove it to other people? That's to say nothing of the possibility that either one or both of them might just not end up wanting the stupid throne. Or that maybe people really are done with the Targ dynasty, and the idea of anyone begging a Targ to sit the throne is, frankly, ridiculous.

[Faint]

So anyway, I was just interested in hearing thoughts from those who want to see Dany + Jon marry or those who think they will about the ramifications of this happening-- how would this union play out, and how would it affect the kingdom?

Jon probably dies fighting the Others, if not, he might up king but I think the former possibility is more likely. Daenerys dies giving birth to their child -- that I'm pretty sure about. Their child definitely becomes king or queen or both (i.e., twins). Whatever happens though, Daenerys is not going to be ruling the kingdom longterm.

[butterbumps!]

The idea of the political alliance marriage just confuses the hell out of me. I don't see how it's beneficial or how it makes sense from the perspective of either of them. On the one hand. Dany doesn't need Jon to prop her up; she has (a) dragon(s). If she makes her claim through right of conquest, she's the monarch and doesn't need to derive power through a male. On the other hand, if we're going by straight Targaryen legal succession, Jon's claim is superior to hers. "But she can prove he's legitimate, no one will believe him otherwise!" But doesn't he also have to prove his legitimacy to her? If he could prove it to her, why could he not prove it to other people? That's to say nothing of the possibility that either one or both of them might just not end up wanting the stupid throne. Or that maybe people really are done with the Targ dynasty, and the idea of anyone begging a Targ to sit the throne is, frankly, ridiculous.

Yea- This is pretty much what I had thought as well. But for due diligence, is there a case for, let's say, Jon being "proven" the heir of Winterfell and King in the North (as per Robb's will that might name him such exclusively), and bringing the realm into unification through a "Stark" - Targ alliance? That is, where his "claim" derives from her conquest, and brings the North back into the fold of the Iron Throne through marriage? I guess what I'm trying to get as is whether there is any possibility that their marriage could have a unifying effect over anything. Instinct tells me no, but I'm trying to think through what kind of purpose it could serve.

Jon probably dies fighting the Others, if not, he might up king but I think the former possibility is more likely. Daenerys dies giving birth to their child -- that I'm pretty sure about. Their child definitely becomes king or queen or both (i.e., twins). Whatever happens though, Daenerys is not going to be ruling the kingdom longterm.

Is your supposition that they will be married, or lovers (and possibly result in childbirth)?

[Faint]

Is your supposition that they will be married, or lovers (and possibly result in childbirth)?

I don't have a very good read on the specifics. As I've stated before, if Hizdahr ends up being the corpse on the prow of the ship, then I say they will definitely get married in some fashion or another. But either way, I imagine the issue is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Daenerys and Jon are not good candidates for long-term survival. Which is why I'm puzzled by the vehement opposition to their coupling. In my mind, even if it does transpire, it is very doubtful it will be long-term in any sense. All those that are visibly sick at the idea of Jon and Daenerys sitting on the throne together in some happily ever after scenario needn't worry -- that is not happening.