"Dany Thread of the Week" Part II

[danm_999]

ok so we agree on the first part. But let me ask u do the small folk want Stannis or the Lanister kids, or did they want Robb or Renly, or Balon , or any lord .

The small folk want to be left alone. That's going to be even more difficult for Daenerys to do though since unlike the other claimants to the throne, she has dragons which up the carnage factor considerably.

[The Other Knight]

Ok if she did not do that , how should she have gone about getting the throne

After seeing what Dany has done since Drogo died, who in their right mind would actually want her to sit on the Iron Throne? Jon? Yes. Stannis? Yep. Tyrion? Absolutely. Dany? You might as well just set Westeros on fire.

[danm_999]

Its not like she has a choice by Qarth , its been made , she has people under her care , and promises she made.

At Qarth, and in fact after it, she's absolutely under no obligation to conquer Westeros though. Taking care of the people in her service and invading the Seven Kingdoms are not the same thing.

[FuzzyJAM]

Yes she did not have to go anywhere but the dothraki are nomads they would eventually pass through that region. And there is no way she would sell her dragons thats like selling ur children. THird after all the shit she went trough how could she not fight for the throne.

Her warlord husband was killed from a wound sustained while he was butchering an utterly innocent people so that he could give his wife's child Westeros. Not exactly tragic, and the fact that she doesn't see that changes nothing.

Her son died before he was born. That's certainly sad, although considering his parents and the fact that she planned to raise him as a warlord suggests it may not have been a loss for the world in general.

I'm not sure how that means she's morally justified in wanting to get the Iron Throne through "fire and blood".

ok so we agree on the first part. But let me ask u do the small folk want Stannis or the Lanister kids, or did they want Robb or Renly, or Balon , or any lord .

Most people don't really care. They want peace. Guess what Dany won't be bringing to Westeros.

[TheZone]

After seeing what Dany has done since Drogo died, who in their right mind would actually want her to sit on the Iron Throne? Jon? Yes. Stannis? Yep. Tyrion? Absolutely. Dany? You might as well just set Westeros on fire.

I think that Tyrion is one of the best choices , he is traveling to Dany now , so she now has the Unsullied , Dothraki, 3 dragons, bunch of slaves and small folk from slavers bay, that maester that is coming to her , sir barriston who is teaching a bunch of kids how to fight, a bunch of more good and bad peolple, possiably YG Connington , and Jorah, illyrio, dorne. Now she will see the truth once Tyrion will force feed her ( and he will) stories about her dad, good experienced people to advise her, she is a truly good person who wants to help the small folk (which she will be loved for once she learns to help the small folk but not make stupid decisions) She is the only one who knows what is like to be poor. She has a great army , already support from westeros, etc

[danm_999]

she is a truly good person who wants to help the small folk (which she will be loved for once she learns to help the small folk but not make stupid decisions)

She'll land in Westeros and be another pretender to the crown, meaning more war and suffering, and she can't even try her usual shtick of freeing people from slavery, since they're already free of slavery!

Not to mention Drogon's proclivity for eating children is not going to win heart's and minds. The smallfolk are going to loathe her.

[butterbumps!]

I think that Tyrion is one of the best choices , he is traveling to Dany now , so she now has the Unsullied , Dothraki, 3 dragons, bunch of slaves and small folk from slavers bay, that maester that is coming to her , sir barriston who is teaching a bunch of kids how to fight, a bunch of more good and bad peolple, possiably YG Connington , and Jorah, illyrio, dorne. Now she will see the truth once Tyrion will force feed her ( and he will) stories about her dad, good experienced people to advise her, she is a truly good person who wants to help the small folk (which she will be loved for once she learns to help the small folk but not make stupid decisions) She is the only one who knows what is like to be poor. She has a great army , already support from westeros, etc

Am I the only one who does not want Dany's transformation to political mastermind to come from the wiseman Tyrion who sets everyone straight with his flawless straight-shooting ways? I hate this because it kind of cheapens the arc of her inner struggle to understand her identity/ power, and for one other glaring reason-- Tyrion does not at present want to save the realm. He wants to get back at Cersei, and rather than a benevolent little man giving out sage advice, he has serious motivation to play her in order to get access to dragons and use them for his own ends. Not that I'm not looking forward to a POV that offers an alternative view of Dany.

[Lummel]

... - Some comparisons to Jon Snow's parallel position. -Trusting Quaithe/ (and Melisandre for Jon) Personally...

It's worth reading just the Jon and Dany chapters in ADWD, then this comes through very strongly: the marriage, concerns about the food supply, the search for allies, warnings, threats from enemies and difficulties with advisors, they both end up locking their animal companions away and both are involved in assassinations and both have a relative visit them

[TheZone]

Am I the only one who does not want Dany's transformation to political mastermind to come from the wiseman Tyrion who sets everyone straight with his flawless straight-shooting ways? I hate this because it kind of cheapens the arc of her inner struggle to understand her identity/ power, and for one other glaring reason-- Tyrion does not at present want to save the realm. He wants to get back at Cersei, and rather than a benevolent little man giving out sage advice, he has serious motivation to play her in order to get access to dragons and use them for his own ends. Not that I'm not looking forward to a POV that offers an alternative view of Dany.

I think that it is true that he is trying to get back at Cercei, what would hurt her more then a younger ,better looking, stronger , queen that is taken her place with an unsoiled rep with the weterosi ? . BTW I am not one of those Tyrion Groupies. But I think when he was hand he was leading the kingdom in a good way, good for the small folk as much as he could for the restraints.I like that comment about her inner struggle and that is a cool way to get her arc going. That is why im am leaving it up for George.

[FuzzyJAM]

Am I the only one who does not want Dany's transformation to political mastermind to come from the wiseman Tyrion who sets everyone straight with his flawless straight-shooting ways? I hate this because it kind of cheapens the arc of her inner struggle to understand her identity/ power, and for one other glaring reason-- Tyrion does not at present want to save the realm. He wants to get back at Cersei, and rather than a benevolent little man giving out sage advice, he has serious motivation to play her in order to get access to dragons and use them for his own ends. Not that I'm not looking forward to a POV that offers an alternative view of Dany.

Yeah, the "Tyrion will come and put everything to rights" thing annoys me.

Tyrion is at least as morally questionable as Dany, and equally incapable of seeing the wrongs he has committed.

[danm_999]

Yeah, the "Tyrion will come and put everything to rights" thing annoys me.

Tyrion is at least as morally questionable as Dany, and equally incapable of seeing the wrongs he has committed.

But, save for the big three in Westeros (Littlefinger, Varys and the Queen of Thorns) he's one of the best players of the game there is. He's a better judge of character than Daenerys when it comes to people's loyalties and motivations, and isn't reactionary like Dany.

He won't make her more morally upright, he'll make her more effective.

[The Other Knight]

I think that Tyrion is one of the best choices , he is traveling to Dany now , so she now has the Unsullied , Dothraki, 3 dragons, bunch of slaves and small folk from slavers bay, that maester that is coming to her , sir barriston who is teaching a bunch of kids how to fight, a bunch of more good and bad peolple, possiably YG Connington , and Jorah, illyrio, dorne. Now she will see the truth once Tyrion will force feed her ( and he will) stories about her dad, good experienced people to advise her, she is a truly good person who wants to help the small folk (which she will be loved for once she learns to help the small folk but not make stupid decisions) She is the only one who knows what is like to be poor. She has a great army , already support from westeros, etc

And this makes her a good choice why? She knows nothing of Westeros, has proven to be a terrible ruler and runs her campaign on fear and violence.

If/when the Night's Watch is abolished, Jon will have the remains, plus the Wildings, his siblings who will soon control the forest, the wolves and the Eyrie, probably Mel and quite possibly the support of the entire North. There is also that question of that possible ice dragon. I'd back him with winter coming and all. :D

[Castel]

But, save for the big three in Westeros (Littlefinger, Varys and the Queen of Thorns) he's one of the best players of the game there is. He's a better judge of character than Daenerys when it comes to people's loyalties and motivations, and isn't reactionary like Dany. He won't make her more morally upright, he'll make her more effective.

Tyrion is screwed. Him surviving in Westeros is a long shot, and it depends on Dany saying "Fuck you, I'm keeping him" which could lose her a lot of allies. Granted she's operating from a position of greater strength than Stannis, but protecting the South's Theon Greyjoy would be difficult, especially now that there is a crazy High Septon with his own mujahideen. I doubt he'll accept a convicted kinslayer running around.

And Tyrion is really a terrible person for ingratiating himself. Young Griff tolerated him, but Dany is known to have bulletproof ideas when it comes to Lannisters and Starks, she might just kill him.

Also, I still stand by my statement about the good person fallacy, if you were sick and needed surgery, would you prefer the homeless man with a heart of gold, or the dispassionate surgeon. Goodness without skill can be just as dangerous as maliciousness. Wanting to help the smallfolk is all good, but there needs to be something to back it up.

[TheZone]

And this makes her a good choice why? She knows nothing of Westeros, has proven to be a terrible ruler and runs her campaign on fear and violence.

If/when the Night's Watch is abolished, Jon with have the remains, plus the Wildings, his siblings who will soon control the forest, the wolves and the Eyrie, probably Mel and quite possibly the support of the entire North. There is also that question of that ice dragon. I'd back him with winter coming and all. :D

WHy would the watch be abolished. I dont think she was a terrible ruler, she was not the best ruler but she was not terrible. She crossed the red waste, stole Illyrios ships, sacked 3 cities , earned an army, and actually sacrificed her own happiness for the better of mereen by making that deal with her new husband. For a 17 year old that is pretty good, Ned got killed in what an hour after he was named king by Robert, Renly had like 3 months(to be fair he was killed by magic so he gets a little slack) , Robb had a good solid year, so tell me how where they any better. Robb coused destruction (almost killed off most of the prominent Northmen), Renly almost caused destruction, Stannis caused destruction , and Ned was Stupid , Honorable but stupid. Jon is the only one who has survived a long time and did not cause too much destruction but some of his decisions were pure stupidity ( locking up Ghost , did u learn nothing from Robb )

[butterbumps!]

I think that it is true that he is trying to get back at Cercei, what would hurt her more then a younger ,better looking, stronger , queen that is taken her place with an unsoiled rep with the weterosi ? . BTW I am not one of those Tyrion Groupies. But I think when he was hand he was leading the kingdom in a good way, good for the small folk as much as he could for the restraints.I like that comment about her inner struggle and that is a cool way to get her arc going. That is why im am leaving it up for George.

I realize the possible fulfillment in Tyrion's bringing forth the younger more beautiful Queen in Dany, but I'm holding out hope that this will be Sansa, who I think would be a more poignant fulfillment to this prophesy given their history together. Dany is a non sequitor to Cersei, while Sansa would be an agonizing and poetically just blow.

@Lummel

I've been meaning to do that. I might actually go through and make chapter by chapter comparison summary installments on here.

[danm_999]

Tyrion is screwed. Him surviving in Westeros is a long shot, and it depends on Dany saying "Fuck you, I'm keeping him" which could lose her a lot of allies. Granted she's operating from a position of greater strength than Stannis, but protecting the South's Theon Greyjoy would be difficult, especially now that there is a crazy High Septon with his own mujahideen. I doubt he'll accept a convicted kinslayer running around.

The people determined to kill Tyrion are going to be exactly the ones Dany needs to remove anyway, so I don't see much of a problem there honestly. Not to mention Joffrey isn't universally loved in the South like Bran and Rickon were in the North.

And Tyrion is really a terrible person for ingratiating himself.

He does it successfully with Jon Snow, Robb Stark, Mord, Bronn and the Mountain Men, in the first book alone. Jump to ADWD and it looks like he's back up to his old tricks with the Second Sons.

Young Griff tolerated him, but Dany is known to have bulletproof ideas when it comes to Lannisters and Starks, she might just kill him.

Maybe. I don't even think she's so foolish as to disregard such a valuable source of information honestly.

Also, I still stand by my statement about the good person fallacy, if you were sick and needed surgery, would you prefer the homeless man with a heart of gold, or the dispassionate surgeon. Goodness without skill can be just as dangerous as maliciousness. Wanting to help the smallfolk is all good, but there needs to be something to back it up.

100% agree with that.

[TheZone]

I realize the possible fulfillment in Tyrion's bringing forth the younger more beautiful Queen in Dany, but I'm holding out hope that this will be Sansa, who I think would be a more poignant fulfillment to this prophesy given their history together. Dany is a non sequitor to Cersei, while Sansa would be an agonizing and poetically just blow. @Lummel I've been meaning to do that. I might actually go through and make chapter by chapter comparison summary installments on here.

I think that Sansa is a good choice and she has little finger by her side , so lets see YG has Varys , Dany has Tyrion, and Sansa has LIttle Finger. I never thought about this like that ...now i am very intrigued.

[Dr. Pepper]

Well, surely there's a good deal more than that! There's a lot of circumstances of their respective tenures as leaders that coincide. For example, both are put into situations where providing sustenance for their people is a dire concern. Dany muses that the recently sabotaged olive groves that were a big part of the economy will take too long to grow to give her people the resources and money they need now. Dany doesn't really try to figure out other ways to handle this, and I'm not sure what her other options are, if there even are any. Conversely, Jon considers hiring Myrish (?) glassmakers to build wintergardens for food, and (albeit, extreeeeemely luckily) a Braavosi banker comes and extends a line of credit to buy food with for winter. (I give him points for the out of the box consideration to build wintergardens rather than simply exporting either food or glass, but think the Banker showing up is super lucky). I would say these are pretty similar scenarios, but Jon takes a different (and admittedly, much more fortuitously successful) path than Dany does. In a perfect world, I think that had Dany considered it, she could have also attempted to secure money from the Iron Bank; however, I think that her move with the "Dracarys" and the Unsullied pretty much guaranteed that no Braavosi bank would do business with her, so it's not a reasonable option at that point. On another note, one of the discussion points I thought was interesting from the previous thread is the complete and utter villainy of the Ghiscari culture we see. I have trouble believing that a culture could survive so long being this incompetent, stupid, lazy and deliriously evil, and I wonder if we've really seen the entire composition of these people- Tze pointed out that we have yet to see the craftsmen, specialists and other tradesman and merchant classes, and it's possible that a different perspective will emerge. If this is the case, I wonder if we can so summarily write off Meereen as the embodiment of pure evil and deserving of whatever comes to them as a whole....

Two points: banks and villainy Ghiscari.

Banks. Dany would have no need to seek out the support of the banks if she had simply seized the elite's assets. The nobility had money, they had trade-able property, they most probably had good food supplies. One of her biggest mistakes after her tricks in gaining the Unsullied and after the 163 in Meereen was to not use what was available. She doesn't need the banks because it's all there but she refuses to use it and the banks won't work with her because of her known tactics. She was better off when she was an unknown.

The villainy Ghiscari: It's so easy to see them this way because our first introduction the Unsullied master was lobbing insults at her thinking she was not educated. It makes the reader believe it was all about her. But Missandei was not at all flustered which suggests that it was just the way he was, especially when dealing with a potential buyer who claims to be the head of the Dothraki (who many in the cities fear) and who also appears to not have the means to buy the product. I work a lot with translators even where I know the language and it's almost hilariously common how often I catch the person I'm speaking with using insulting language when they are unaware I know what they are saying. I don't think that makes them villains. But, apart from that, we really have no actual look at the Ghiscari except through Dany's eyes, and she basically thinks the same types of things the Unsullied master was saying. So much of what she thinks is colored by this high level of contempt, as though she just can't stand them despite making the decision to conquer and rule them. The whole, "Now I have to put on my rabbit ears" thing is rude. The only other thing we know about the Ghiscari comes through the eyes of other Westerosi - Tyrion, Selmy, and Quentyn - and most of it has to do with a very prejudiced view in that they think they are better than them for whatever reason, and a lot of that stems from their thoughts on the language, dress and the devastation that exists due to Dany. What's more, Dany thinks they are stupid and incompetent but, ahem, this is Dany thinking it and she isn't exactly a beacon of knowledge and competence.

Its not like she has a choice by Qarth , its been made , she has people under her care , and promises she made.

She had a choice. She chose to make promises to the people that she chose to place/keep under her care. My interpretation is that the Dothraki with her before the pyre expected her to return to Vaes Dothrak, where they would either continue to attend her there (they had already promised their lives to hers) or set off on their own ways. She chose to cross the red waste and she chose to stop in Qarth, she chose to stop in Astapor and then chose to sack the region. As far as I'm concerned, the promises she's made to keep them safe have yet to be fulfilled.

[TheZone]

Its easy to say that when u dont understand her motivations .

[Dr. Pepper]

Its easy to say that when u dont understand her motivations .

It's way easier to say that when you do understand her motivations. Her motivations after the pyre had nothing to do with the safety of the people she chose to make promises to, and they would have been most safe and secure in Vaes Dothrak. Her motivations were all about a throne she wanted to sit on. These motivations changed to wanting to free slaves (without any plan and actually causing more problems) and they still have nothing to do with her saying she wanted to keep her dothraki safe.